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Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 3:49:48 PM

haegint

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Folks, so I have been re-installing the game after some 4 years with a determination to finally learn it better and give it a proper go. I've been prowling the forums for a while lately, whilst playing and re-playing the Coral Sea (standard) scenario to learn the mechanics better. I also read the manual frequently and found useful older posts. But the material is dispersed and voluminous, and I am quite likely missing things for which I apologize.

I play the Allies side. This battle occurred on May 5th, the 2nd day of the scenario.

I set the Devastator TB's from Yorktown to altitude 100, and the others from Lexington to 1000. Both squads have Naval Attack mission, and Airfield Attack as secondary mission. In the 4 patrols settings, I have set them to nothing else. So I understand they are doing their mission at 100% or take a rest. Here they were doing a Naval Attack.

The combat report says "bombing". Why did they not use torpedo? I check the squad details -> Airplane info and it says the bombs are secondary load. What determines which ordnance they will use in the attack? Is there a way to influence this during the order phase?

Seconday question is: What is considered the ideal altitude setting for torpedo bombers? In an older post from BBfanboy I found 1000 ft., but 100 intuitively seems also sensible to me. How would their mission effectiveness be influenced by the altitude? Less alt <-> more flak? Differences in the gain of Fatigue? Is it depending on aircraft model?

I really appreciate any help. Many thanks in advance!

PS: I may warm up this thread in the future with more questions in order not to unduly clutter the forums.
I also wanted to post a screenshot but system will not let me for another 7 days.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by haegint -- 8/15/2020 4:21:05 PM >

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 3:55:09 PM

geofflambert

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Only strafing occurs at 100'. 1000' is "low" naval and is a special skill (as well as strafing, separately) that your aircrews are likely not trained for. Most players send TBs in at 5000' so they can find the target. They then drop low 200 - 500' on their own to release the torpedoes. Training for this skill is typically done at 5000' or higher.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 8/15/2020 3:57:26 PM >

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 4:00:40 PM

geofflambert

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Similarly, dive bombers don't release at the altitude you send them in at. Optimally you send them in at 10k feet or thereabouts. Too high or too low will result in glide bombing or level bombing.

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 4:05:54 PM

geofflambert

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Another problem with the altitudes you set is even when the air crews are highly trained to attack from those altitudes they are apt to be blown out of the sky by light AA. It's tantamount to a kamikaze attack if the targets are warships, without much chance of success.

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 4:06:06 PM

haegint

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Hey geoff, many thanks for the superquick replies! I put my text back in to give your comments the context.

OK, I see about TB and those special altitudes. I'll set them to 5000 and take it from there. Also, yeah it is clear to me how the DB's are working. I set them at 10'000 and also the Wildcats escorts I set same. I noted that combat report usually mentions the DB release at some 2000 or 3000 of altitude (so yes, after they dove lower from the 10'000).

Maybe it was not visible previously, but the part of why the TB's were using bombs instead of torpedos? Sorry this was written in the combat report which I wanted to upload a screenshot of. But system will not let me for now. Any ideas what determines which ordnance the TB use?

Cheers!

< Message edited by haegint -- 8/15/2020 4:18:26 PM >

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 4:21:15 PM

RangerJoe

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Here are a couple of links:

links and info for new players

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4726264

FAQ / Info for Newb's

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2260137

Tender and Support/Auxillary Ship Guide

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2920431

Torpedo bombers will use torpedoes in Normal range if:
1) Torpedo ordinance is selected;
2) There are actually torpedoes available for them to use!

Torpedo bombers, or any bomber with the torpedo as the main ordinance, if there are no torpedoes available will use the normal bomb load even at a 1,000 foot attack altitude when they might otherwise have a Low Naval attack penalty.

Glide bombing as been removed so for the dive bombers it is dive bombing or level bombing.

Good luck! (Unless we are opponents!)

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 4:42:49 PM

haegint

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Joe, many thanks for the link collection. I started collecting some myself already, but missing those 3...

So re. torpedos or bombs... On the new turn (May 6), I have not changed the mission for the TB squads, and their detail screen says "Using TORPEDOES" in yellow. I went back and checked the info from the previous turn of May 5, before the battle: it also says "TORPEDOES"...

I open the CV ship details screen (say Lexington) and it says there are 36/36 torps available on May 5. I guess these are ones to be used by the TB squad, are they not? So I'm confused... Or are the TB torpedoes shown somewhere else, on some other screen perhaps?

It will be a very long time before I will be a worthy opponent of yours, I'm sure :-) Cheers!

< Message edited by haegint -- 8/15/2020 5:10:43 PM >

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 5:08:33 PM

RangerJoe

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No, those are the torpedoes to be used but the torpedo bombers only use those on surface ships within Normal Range. So if your torpedo bombers were attacking an airfield, then the bombs would be used.

Against Japan, you might want to set your altitude for your torpedo bombers to a 9,000 foot altitude to escape the light AAA.

Against Japanese ships, especially air craft carriers, do not have your dive bombers be unescorted so make sure that your attacking range is set so your fighters can help to protect the bombers.

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 5:28:48 PM

haegint

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Very well... I replayed the May 5 turn with one TB squad set to 5000 altitude and the other still at 1000. They again all only used their bombs. Only thing I noticed was that the group from 1000 was more precise and got more hits in than the 5000-one. But I think the reason is why they use bombs are in what you say:

...those are the torpedoes to be used but the torpedo bombers only use those on surface ships within Normal Range. So if your torpedo bombers were attacking an airfield, then the bombs would be used.

Well I do have the TB set to "Maximum Range" of 5 which is their max range I suppose, I cannot increase it any higher. So for the next turns I set it to 4 and see if they start using torps. Sure for airfields they will always use bombs, makes sense

Re escorts and range... I noticed the Dauntless DB have a max range of 8, and the Wildcats have a max range of 7 only. But I set them at 7 for both groups, the idea being - as you suggest - to provide escort for the full mission and do not let the DB fly the last hex alone. Do I have this correct? Or should one set it even at 6, only to be extra certain? (I understand the trade-off would be that they might attack you at max range, and you will not retaliate on the same turn because of reduced range)

< Message edited by haegint -- 8/15/2020 5:29:48 PM >

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 5:31:21 PM

Alfred

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The report you attached shows the Devastators were attacking beyond their "normal" range. This is shown by the "*". Hence they are forced to use their reduced bomb loadout.

Alfred

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 5:52:02 PM

RangerJoe

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Range 7 is fine, but be aware that the Japanese can still bomb you from their carriers from 8 hexes using their Kates.

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 5:59:35 PM

haegint

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Very well, thank you Alfred and Joe! I really appreciate your knowledge and patience.

The game is so full of details... I've noticed such stars several times already, in some other screens, knowing it must mean something but what?? So thank you for clearing up this instance for me.

I will set the TB range to 4 and hopefully they engage again in some turn and will then use the torps.

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 6:03:56 PM

RangerJoe

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Alfred is much better with the details and can cite things very well. It is wise to heed him.

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 8:34:23 PM

rustysi

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OK, for one thing, if you don't know or haven't done it, you can 'drill' down to the individual groups on your CV's. Doing so for the TB's you'll see you can manually select bombs or torps. I always set my CV's TB's to torps. Also, as said above, planes have a 'normal' or 'extended range' load out. TB won't carry torps at extended range.

As for the altitude setting, it pretty much doesn't matter as the TB will 'drop' to an appropriate altitude in order to launch its torp.

Where altitude matters is when its come to escorts and flak. Escorting fighters should be set to near the altitude of the bombers, most here say it should be the same. Now as for flak, before your attack is made you'll be fired upon. If you're high enough you can avoid the smaller caliber AAA. You'll be fired on on the way out as well. This is where a trade-off comes in, because when climbing back out the game somehow counts the climb time into the flak algorithm. How much an effect that has I've no idea.

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 8:49:34 PM

haegint

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Yes, I found that manual setting option in the drill-down there. Alright, this discusssion was very helpful, I have learned many new things.

A quick recap for future readers: I tried all what we discussed in-game and can definitely confirm that whenever the Devastator TB's engage in Naval Attack up to a range of 4 they use the torpedoes, and when engaging at their max range of 5 they drop the bombs. This is also mentioned in the manual, page 163 at the top.

I played with the "Reliable USN Torpedoes" option turned OFF (more realism), and they were plain TERRIBLE with their torpedo attacks! Did not track exactly but out of perhaps 18 - 20 torpedoes dropped they did not manage one single hit on an IJN ship! Instead, their losses due to flak and CAP were close to 50%. I mention this really more tongue-in-cheek as I know it is supposed to play like this. But holy mackerel, it is very aggravating to watch during the turn resolution phase...

Again many thanks to all contributors!

< Message edited by haegint -- 8/16/2020 9:02:36 AM >

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 8:57:37 PM

rustysi

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quote:

their losses due to flak and CAP were close to 50%.

Play against an experienced opponent and watch those number approach 100%.

Well for the Devastator's at least.

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/15/2020 10:17:06 PM

Nomad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: haegint

Yes, I found that manual setting option in the drill-down there. Alright, this discusssion was very helpful, I have learned many new things.

A quick recap for future readers: I tried all what we discussed in-game and can definitely confirm that whenever the Devastator TB's engage in Naval Attack up to a range of 4 they use the torpedoes, and when engaging at their max range of 5 they drop the bombs.

I played with the "Reliable USN Torpedoes" option turned OFF (more realism), and they were plain TERRIBLE with their torpedo attacks! Did not track exactly but out of perhaps 18 - 20 torpedoes dropped they did not manage one single hit on an IJN ship! Instead, their losses due to flak and CAP were close to 50%. I mention this really more tongue-in-cheek as I know it is supposed to play like this. But holy mackerel, it is very aggravating to watch during the turn resolution phase...

Again many thanks to all contributors!

You should understand the the "Reliable USN torpedoes" option turned off only applies to hits that do not explode, not whether they hit or not. A hit is determined mostly by the pilots skill level in NavT.

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/16/2020 5:30:29 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Similarly, dive bombers don't release at the altitude you send them in at. Optimally you send them in at 10k feet or thereabouts. Too high or too low will result in glide bombing or level bombing.

Correction: Glide bombing was removed from the Air Attack algorithm about five years ago when the bombing altitude threshold for Low level bombing was changed from >6000 feet to >2000 feet. If AA is heavy I fly my dive bombers at 7000 feet to stay above most of the light flak and balloons and they level bomb just fine - not as accurate as dive bombing but quite acceptable accuracy and much safer for the bombers.

Edit: I see RJ answered the glide bombing issue already. My bad for not reading through first.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 8/16/2020 5:35:52 AM >

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/16/2020 5:53:36 AM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Similarly, dive bombers don't release at the altitude you send them in at. Optimally you send them in at 10k feet or thereabouts. Too high or too low will result in glide bombing or level bombing.

Correction: Glide bombing was removed from the Air Attack algorithm about five years ago when the bombing altitude threshold for Low level bombing was changed from >6000 feet to >2000 feet. If AA is heavy I fly my dive bombers at 7000 feet to stay above most of the light flak and balloons and they level bomb just fine - not as accurate as dive bombing but quite acceptable accuracy and much safer for the bombers.

Edit: I see RJ answered the glide bombing issue already. My bad for not reading through first.

Not you bad because you gave a more detailed answer and a solution.

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/17/2020 6:46:43 AM

Dili

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quote:

played with the "Reliable USN Torpedoes" option turned OFF (more realism), and they were plain TERRIBLE with their torpedo attacks! Did not track exactly but out of perhaps 18 - 20 torpedoes dropped they did not manage one single hit on an IJN ship!

Reliable torpedoes: means that your torpedo fails to explode not that it not hit.

The fact that you did not hit any Japanese ship means that your carrier crew still not have much torpedo naval attack skills. You need to train them.

< Message edited by Dili -- 8/17/2020 6:49:55 AM >

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/17/2020 7:46:59 AM

Ambassador

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

played with the "Reliable USN Torpedoes" option turned OFF (more realism), and they were plain TERRIBLE with their torpedo attacks! Did not track exactly but out of perhaps 18 - 20 torpedoes dropped they did not manage one single hit on an IJN ship!

Reliable torpedoes: means that your torpedo fails to explode not that it not hit.

The fact that you did not hit any Japanese ship means that your carrier crew still not have much torpedo naval attack skills. You need to train them.

Best advice that could be given, regarding torpedo bombers efficiency.

Scrap that. Best advice that could be given for any type of plane efficiency, especially for the Allies at game start.

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/17/2020 8:34:34 AM

thephalanx1453

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quote:

ORIGINAL: haegint

Seconday question is: What is considered the ideal altitude setting for torpedo bombers? In an older post from BBfanboy I found 1000 ft., but 100 intuitively seems also sensible to me. How would their mission effectiveness be influenced by the altitude? Less alt <-> more flak? Differences in the gain of Fatigue? Is it depending on aircraft model?

They drop down to 200ft to launch their torps no matter what altitude you set them to, so there's altitude has no direct impact on their attack effectiveness.
However, more alt = less flak when going in and out of an attack run, but more alt = more fatigue gained by pilots, which in turn impacts their effectiveness.
Also apparently if you set your bombers to the same/similar altitude as your escorting fighters, you get better chance at coordination.
For Coral Sea as Japan I set my all my Kates, Vals, and Zero escorts at 13000~15000ft.

< Message edited by thephalanx1453 -- 8/17/2020 8:37:38 AM >

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/17/2020 9:49:54 AM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili
Reliable torpedoes: means that your torpedo fails to explode not that it not hit.

The fact that you did not hit any Japanese ship means that your carrier crew still not have much torpedo naval attack skills. You need to train them.

Depends on the ship you are aiming at too. Good luck hitting a fast and maneuverable destroyer with aerial torpedoes. Or some flak-heavy combat ship

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 8/17/2020 9:50:25 AM >

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/17/2020 12:25:35 PM

Ambassador

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili
Reliable torpedoes: means that your torpedo fails to explode not that it not hit.

The fact that you did not hit any Japanese ship means that your carrier crew still not have much torpedo naval attack skills. You need to train them.

Depends on the ship you are aiming at too. Good luck hitting a fast and maneuverable destroyer with aerial torpedoes. Or some flak-heavy combat ship

If I�m not mistaken, only one destroyer (USS Jarvis ?) was sunk by an aerial torpedo, and even then only because her captain put her between the enemy planes and a cruiser. All others being sunk by bombs, mines, kamikazes, naval gunfire, or submarine and surface torpedoes.

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/17/2020 3:56:24 PM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453

quote:

ORIGINAL: haegint

Seconday question is: What is considered the ideal altitude setting for torpedo bombers? In an older post from BBfanboy I found 1000 ft., but 100 intuitively seems also sensible to me. How would their mission effectiveness be influenced by the altitude? Less alt <-> more flak? Differences in the gain of Fatigue? Is it depending on aircraft model?

They drop down to 200ft to launch their torps no matter what altitude you set them to, so there's altitude has no direct impact on their attack effectiveness.
However, more alt = less flak when going in and out of an attack run, but more alt = more fatigue gained by pilots, which in turn impacts their effectiveness.
Also apparently if you set your bombers to the same/similar altitude as your escorting fighters, you get better chance at coordination.
For Coral Sea as Japan I set my all my Kates, Vals, and Zero escorts at 13000~15000ft.

The high altitude pilot fatigue penalty only kicks in if aircraft is flown at >75% it's maximum altitude.

Alfred

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/17/2020 4:57:59 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453

quote:

ORIGINAL: haegint

Seconday question is: What is considered the ideal altitude setting for torpedo bombers? In an older post from BBfanboy I found 1000 ft., but 100 intuitively seems also sensible to me. How would their mission effectiveness be influenced by the altitude? Less alt <-> more flak? Differences in the gain of Fatigue? Is it depending on aircraft model?

They drop down to 200ft to launch their torps no matter what altitude you set them to, so there's altitude has no direct impact on their attack effectiveness.
However, more alt = less flak when going in and out of an attack run, but more alt = more fatigue gained by pilots, which in turn impacts their effectiveness.
Also apparently if you set your bombers to the same/similar altitude as your escorting fighters, you get better chance at coordination.
For Coral Sea as Japan I set my all my Kates, Vals, and Zero escorts at 13000~15000ft.

The high altitude pilot fatigue penalty only kicks in if aircraft is flown at >75% it's maximum altitude.

Alfred

That is good to know, thank you Alfred. Oxygen starvation . . .

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/17/2020 5:10:32 PM

RADM.Yamaguchi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: thephalanx1453

quote:

ORIGINAL: haegint

Seconday question is: What is considered the ideal altitude setting for torpedo bombers? In an older post from BBfanboy I found 1000 ft., but 100 intuitively seems also sensible to me. How would their mission effectiveness be influenced by the altitude? Less alt <-> more flak? Differences in the gain of Fatigue? Is it depending on aircraft model?

They drop down to 200ft to launch their torps no matter what altitude you set them to, so there's altitude has no direct impact on their attack effectiveness.
However, more alt = less flak when going in and out of an attack run, but more alt = more fatigue gained by pilots, which in turn impacts their effectiveness.
Also apparently if you set your bombers to the same/similar altitude as your escorting fighters, you get better chance at coordination.
For Coral Sea as Japan I set my all my Kates, Vals, and Zero escorts at 13000~15000ft.

The high altitude pilot fatigue penalty only kicks in if aircraft is flown at >75% it's maximum altitude.

Alfred

Yes, Alfred. Thank you for that. I couldn't find it but i had read that there was a penalty. Makes sense now because i run my ki-15 babs at 20k and it seems to work but i was worried about my Dinahs because i'm not making any more and ran them at 25k. both are with the 75% of max so it has been working for me without me knowing why.

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/17/2020 5:44:19 PM

haegint

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Ok thanks very much for the many more useful answers, details and ideas, like eg. quick DD generally hard to hit with TB torps.

I went back to look at of the TB squads on LEX and YT in my Coral Sea game. It seems both pilot groups are quite good already with a "NavT" rating of 77 and 79. Not sure though if these pilots are preset entirely from the scenario files, or if there is a random element to it upon making a new game. In any case in my game they were fairly competent I would say? So I suspect they were (mainly) going after DD's with their attacks, and the results were all misses.

TBH I did not pay attention during battle, and from the old combat reports it's not clear which TB attacked which ship. Anyways it's something I will look out for in the future. It definitely seems very reasonable to consider size and speed of the target ships.

******

Alright, please a New chapter... Scenarios...

I feel like I have seen and learned enough for now from the Coral Sea scenario, and want to move to the next level. I definitely feel not ready to take on the full campaign, if nothing else because one should issue like 5'000 commands on Turn 1 (Kull's Allies spreadsheet)... But in some of the threads you gave me there are several interesing options with still smaller scens. I might go for the Aleutian's "1000 Miles". But I have a general question:

In the technical support section, I found a thread about Andy Mac's unofficial updates to the stock scenarios (and a couple of extra ones he made). This is the link:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3198064

Are these meant to be used with (beta) version 11.26b of the game? I understand they are more bug fixing and polish, not re-invention of the stock scens. So I think I should install them. But what's your opinion or experience with these?

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RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/17/2020 7:15:00 PM

RangerJoe

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My suggestion is that you try the Guadalcanal scenario first.

If your TBs use bombs down low, they have a better chance to hit the DDs.

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(in reply to haegint)

Post #: 29

RE: Game questions (Beginner mostly) - 8/17/2020 9:19:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: haegint

Ok thanks very much for the many more useful answers, details and ideas, like eg. quick DD generally hard to hit with TB torps.

I went back to look at of the TB squads on LEX and YT in my Coral Sea game. It seems both pilot groups are quite good already with a "NavT" rating of 77 and 79. Not sure though if these pilots are preset entirely from the scenario files, or if there is a random element to it upon making a new game. In any case in my game they were fairly competent I would say? So I suspect they were (mainly) going after DD's with their attacks, and the results were all misses.

TBH I did not pay attention during battle, and from the old combat reports it's not clear which TB attacked which ship. Anyways it's something I will look out for in the future. It definitely seems very reasonable to consider size and speed of the target ships.

Don't check only the squadron's average, but also each pilot. You can never be sure which pilot flies, so if you have rookie pilots, they're at risks.

You can check in the editor, some of the squadrons have pre-set average XP, which will get somewhat randomized once the scenario starts.

Another word on the Devastator : they're awful. I'd advise you not to launch attacks with them, as they're slow (barely 200), fragile (less durability than a Val) and an anemic replacement rate. If you use them in the grand campaign in the first few months, you'll waste good pilots, as losses are inevitable, even against mere cargoes.

If you plan on using your CVs offensively during that time, 1) do it carefully, 2) drop the TB and add a fighter or DB squadron instead.

quote:

ORIGINAL: haegint

Alright, please a New chapter... Scenarios...

I feel like I have seen and learned enough for now from the Coral Sea scenario, and want to move to the next level. I definitely feel not ready to take on the full campaign, if nothing else because one should issue like 5'000 commands on Turn 1 (Kull's Allies spreadsheet)... But in some of the threads you gave me there are several interesing options with still smaller scens. I might go for the Aleutian's "1000 Miles". But I have a general question:

I'd advise the Guadalcanal scenario too. Coral Sea is ok to get the grasp on the game's basic mechanics for air missions and naval combat, but Guadalcanal will teach you to conserve your supply and your airframes, and how to do successful amphibious landings (and ground combat).

But then, don't hesitate to delve into the grand campaign. Don't try to get everything perfectly from the start, and don't try to follow Kull's spreadsheet at start. Start playing by only using ships, try to ambush the AI sometimes, see how the invasion of the SRA unfolds, but don't plan to play more than three months (or even one month at first). See what went wrong, and restart once you've learned from your initial mistakes.
And ask questions here while you do it (or do a google search beforehand). The point is : no scenario can really approach the complexity of the grand campaign.

(in reply to haegint)

Post #: 30