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Two basic questions from prospective buyer - 8/6/2003 12:19:02 AM   
Real and Simulated Wars

 

Posts: 768
Joined: 8/6/2003
Status: offline 		Hi,
I am seriously considering buying Korsun Pocket. I am a big fan of serious wargames. Played Combat Mission, Close Combat , TacOps (liked them) and now I am looking for a game of a scale in which I can apply Lynd's theorys about maneuver warfare.
Before I buy I would like to know the answer to these 2 questions:
1) How battles are resolved? Is it true that dice are thrown to solve the battles?
2) Is there a fog of war?
Thank you in advance guys, your help is apreciated.
Post #: 1
- 8/6/2003 2:46:18 AM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		I don't have the game but can answer your first question based on one of the screenshots here:

http://www.korsunpocket.com/screenshots.asp

Yes, dice are used along with what looks like a combat results table.

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 2
- 8/6/2003 3:48:43 AM   
Wilhammer

 

Posts: 449
Joined: 5/24/2002
From: Out in the Sticks of Rockingham County, North Caro
Status: offline 		Classic wargaming CRT with 6 sided dice.

Usually, it is just one die, but if the defender has piles of units in a hex, the chance it will be a pair of dice rolled rises relative to unit density.

In that case, the result of each die role is applied to that combat.

The thing to realize is that this system is NOT cutting edge computer wargaming, but a super duper board gaming system applied to the PC.

Unit values are abstracted, not equipment detailed like TOAW.

Conceptually, this game is no more complex than say GDW's Operation Crusader or Suez '73, or SPI's Central Front games. But it does maximise the use of the PC for management.

What is really nice about the design is the battlefield management interface - instead of having to click on each stack, you can highlight problems using the interface.

The supply rules seem pretty good; I look forward to testing them.

Well. heading home soon, and going to start my first scenario tonight vs the AI.

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 3
- 8/6/2003 5:03:22 AM   
Toxie

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 8/5/2003
From: WA./USA
Status: offline 		Oh man, I would love to see this system for a Operation
Crusader game. I was looking for my old GDW game and
came across instead the AH's PC game that just run's
on DOS:( ...Yep, another XP old, fustrated gamer:D

Toxie

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 4
- 8/6/2003 5:28:50 AM   
JaguarUSF

 

Posts: 261
Joined: 7/31/2003
From: Jacksonville, FL
Status: offline 		Dice: as stated in a previous post, yes
Fog Of War: can be turned on and off using Hidden Units (they are not seen until within a certain range, and not shown what type they are until closer still)...the entire map is revealed at the start, however (as it would be in real life).

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 5
- 8/6/2003 5:31:58 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		I am one of those who believe in making use of computer power to make abettewr wargame.


Yes the game has dice. That sounds bad but I have been playing the predecessor game : TAO2 for nearly 2 years and its a great game.

This game is better.

Its a wargamer's game.

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 6
- 8/6/2003 6:56:22 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		"Dice" - whether D6 or D100 etc., in effect are used in every probabilities based resolution system. It's just that in this design the dice actually show on screen. Wouldn't it be funny to actually be able to roll some physical dice and input the results to the program!

Chelco you're likely actually after some more detailed info on combat resolution. From memory based on the Ardennes Offensive a series of factors go into setting the odds ratio for each side: Combat and defense strengths, divisional integrity, number of regiments per division brought to bear, terrain, artillery and command... I'm really dusting off the memeory cobwebs here.

I'd expect a lot of fine-tuning and addendum to this procss with the new game.

FOW definitely exists as it should, being LOS and visibility based. As with all operational wargames it's a fine thing to finally identify a unit's organization.

I'll be looking forward to getting this one and will need to reserve any specific thoughts til then.

As for a battle of "maneuver", if Korsun has an option to play historically, a German pocket must form per OKH orders. It's then a question of break-in and break-out for the Germans firefighting along numerous flanks leading to the pocket and of concentric offense both inwards and outwards on the part of the Russians. A very complex campaign indeed.

There are a couple of things that I'm very much looking forward to exploring: The roaming combat calculator, the supply and airdrop system, temporary strongpoints affecting enemy movement and the system of variable objective values.

I do hope people start posting some in-game observations soon too. Get to it guys!

Adam.

_____________________________


(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 7
- 8/6/2003 7:25:15 AM   
e_barkmann


Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline 		Apart from BrubakerII's fine recount above, Rob and I have been bashing each other in slow motion online for the last few months, in a couple of web based AAR's. Effectively we started these email games as "newbies" ourselves (although had played the older TAO a fair bit), so you may find comments useful.

Go to [URL=http://www.wargamer.com/wachtamrhein]wacht am rhien[/URL] and click on "Replays"

Cheers Chris

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 8
- 8/6/2003 7:35:26 AM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		I have only played the Ardennes Offensive scenario as the allies so far and I am enjoying the game very much. I will agree; the system is very much like an old time board wargame brought to the computer. This is fine though because it is a very good effort. I can't really comment on the AI because I haven't played enough. I can say that while I handily won my first game against the AI; as I expected to do playing the Allies at the Bulge; I was pleasantly surprised to see the AI shift its effort if it is making no progress. I was expecting the AI to choose an avenue of advance and just try to bull it's way through, but on many occasions, it shifted it's focus and force allocation to try a new approach if it was making no progress or I made a new force allocation. It will certainly react and take advantage of any adjustment you make. I tried to pull a fast one on the AI a couple of times and it immediately shifted forces and attacked me at a point that I had weakened. I like what I have seen so far and am starting a game as the Germans in the Ardennes tonight. I am really looking forward to going East in a couple of days. I will say that the interface is pristine.

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 9
- 8/6/2003 8:23:33 AM   
Gregor_SSG


Posts: 681
Joined: 3/6/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wilhammer
[
The thing to realize is that this system is NOT cutting edge computer wargaming, but a super duper board gaming system applied to the PC.
]

I'm afraid that I have to disagree with comment about Korsun Pocket being a super duper board game system. I'm writing a design article at the moment that adresses this point, but in summary, here is a list of the Korsun Pocket game systems that would be impossible or impractical for combat in a board game:

Movement
Supply
Combat

We do use a six sided dice and a series of CRTs, because that's all you need for a game at this scale and because it makes matters so much easier for the human player.

Similarly, unit strengths are abstracted because this is right thing to do for a game on this scale. Unsurprisingly, boardgame designers generally came to the same conclusion.

Here at SSG, we believe that all the elements of a game need to work together in a harmonious fashion so that the gamer has all the info he needs to make consistent decisions and to see the effects of those decisions.

Adding superfluous and irrelevant information is the easiest way to destroy that harmony and introduce confusion and extra work for no reward.

Gregor

_____________________________

Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 10
- 8/6/2003 1:14:40 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		So the unit strenghts are abstractive, and the combat is decided by dice. Can anyone give a brief explanation how e.g. a combat turn of armor vs. infantry is resolved? :confused:

_____________________________


Got StuG?

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 11
- 8/6/2003 1:37:08 PM   
e_barkmann


Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]So the unit strenghts are abstractive, and the combat is decided by dice. Can anyone give a brief explanation how e.g. a combat turn of armor vs. infantry is resolved? [/QUOTE]

It's not brief, but it's thorough :-)

[URL=http://www.robjess.com/war/archives/000395.html]Forming the attack by Rob Gjessing[/URL]

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 12
- 8/6/2003 1:41:35 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		Resolution is a combination of all the variables:

The attacking strength of the attacker
The defense strength of the defender
The terrain
The amount of artillery each side can bring to bear
How many hex sides is the attacker attacking out of? A minimum of 2 but the more the better
The quality of both units Elite, Average or Poor
Is the defender in supply?
Are the attacking units adjacent to other enemy units not involved in this action?
Shifts, on one side the other or both, for general ship, air support and barrage support.
Shifts to one side, the other or both, if all the units in the division are within 5 hexes of each other (divisional integrity)
Is the defender dug in?

There are probably others I have forgotten.

Like any good PC game you are not forced to memorise all this stuff. But it makes you a better player.

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 13
- 8/6/2003 2:57:06 PM   
Rob Gjessing


Posts: 525
Joined: 1/27/2003
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Yep you forgot Shock and Anti Shock allowances - which is a new feature for KP.

I think this really comes into play with INF v ARM. (ie: ARM have a shock value - INF dont - and the shock values are taken into account when resolving combat).

Note that an Anti tank unit has anti shock, which balances out the ARMs shock values, etc.

Thats a summary. I think some other factors come into play also with shock and anti shock, like the type of terrain, the actual values (some units have a value of 1 whilst other have 2 etc).

There really are many things which go into resolving combat.. tactical shifts, depending upon which direction you are attacking from, the number of units attacking from each direction, if its across a river.. etc.

So whilst the combat is resolved via a 6 sided Die, and people are describing this game as a 'board' game.. I dont actually agree with that point of view. Its a whole lot more complex then people realise.. the beauty is that the grunt of the PC takes care of all of that stuff.. although the data is available for you to see, so that you can see exactly what is being considered and what is not, and how it has effected the results of combat.

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 14
Thanx! - 8/6/2003 3:24:29 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Excellent guide, Rob!! :)

That answered most of my questions! I'm getting more and more interested in this game. Follow-up q: Is it possible to have incorrect intelligence on the enemy units (due to clever camouflage, diverting manouvers etc), and thus that the odds are not correct?

It would add to realism, IMO. How many times didn't companies/batallions go into action finding themselves against resistance complely different to the expected?

_____________________________


Got StuG?

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 15
- 8/6/2003 3:46:15 PM   
Rob Gjessing


Posts: 525
Joined: 1/27/2003
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Well yes it is! Sort of!

Whilst the intelligence that you see isnt misleading or incorrect (although read below inrelation to hidden units and the fog of war),

The reason I say this is because, there is always a chance that your best attack will fail, or will not go as well as you had planned.


Whilst it is not stated as boldly as such - this sort of thing has has been taken into account in the fact that your best assault can always result in you 'rolling a 1' on the die (I hate referring to it like that.. ), which will not get you a good result.

If you have been following the AAR between Chris and myself on [URL=http://www.wargamer.com/wachtamrhein/]Wacht am Rhein[/URL], you may have noticed that when I write my turns up I tend to say that my assault failed (when I rolled a 1) due to poor intelligence on my troops or spotters part, or because of the heroic actions of the enemy.

Because that is probably what happened.

In the game, it wont come up and say your assault was not succesful because of this, but thats what you can put it down to.

There is always an element of chance - the fortunes of war - involved, and the die (and as stated earlier - every PC based war game uses the random factor - they just dont tell you about it) is used for this purpose.

I think its effective.

Just quickly - aware this is now turning into a long post - when you are playing with the hidden units setting, the first contact with enemy units - where you are not adjacent to them, will give you a silhouette of the units you have exposed, but the fog of war will not allow you to see what sort of unit it is.. is it strong ARM, INF, or an ENG unit. You can use this quite effectively to feint attacks..

[Whoosh!]

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 16
- 8/6/2003 4:15:08 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		EXCELLENT! :D

I've enjoyed following yours and Chris' "Wacht am Rhein" battle.
Poor intelligence, bad execution, poor coordination....many things can be written into the "diced" combat outcome. :)


Good stuff... thanks for taking time w/ answering!

_____________________________


Got StuG?

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 17
- 8/6/2003 9:36:09 PM   
Real and Simulated Wars

 

Posts: 768
Joined: 8/6/2003
Status: offline 		Thank you guys for your responses. I read them thoroughly and I can't wait to get out of work and pickup a copy at CompUSA.
Thanks again.

(in reply to Real and Simulated Wars)
Post #: 18
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