Neutrality Pacts - Germany USSR

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Neutrality Pacts - Germany USSR - 8/24/2020 11:43:01 PM

Falken

Posts: 242
Joined: 8/8/2007
From: ON, Canada
Status: offline

Hi,

Little introduction.

I have been a massive supporter and fan of WITP. Bought WITP:AE in 2009 and still to this day, continue to have PBEM games. Bought the original game before that, and was a big fan of CHS and B-MOD. Anyway, all this to say that i've played a lot of wargames.

Back in 2014, I bought MWIF. To be honest, I bought it, read the manuals inside out, watched and did all the tutorials, and then didn't touch it for years. A lot has changed since the first 1.0 version, to the now pretty stable 3.0.2.

Recently, i've gone back into it, and thanks to AARs by rkr1958, composer99, and other fine AARs, I was able to get into it and understand the game process, and learn "how" to play this very detailed, and honestly, for me, quite complicated game. Yeah, I know,, funny to hear from a guy who plays a lot of WITP, but for some reason, I find this game way more complicated.

Gotta say,, i'm hooked. I've now bought the board game, and have a full Global War going on, now in Nov '39, using both the computer MWIF and the board game. I use the board game in unison for several reasons. 1) wanted to buy it to support ADG. 2) wanted to learn the board game differences and 3) I find that having the board game helps me in "seeing" the whole picture of what to do next.

While it's true that doing the computer moves, and then replicating the board moves takes 3-4 times longer, I just cannot get a feel for the overall war effort without "seeing it" on the boards. Just can't get a good sense from the screens (and yes, even with global map).

Anyway,, to stop rambling, and get to the point. I do not understand, at all, the whole process for Neutrality Pacts, including the offensive and defensive markers, and how the process works. Don't understand what the numbers mean, and why I would choose def or off markers when i'm germany or ussr.

Yes... I have the read the manual, but just don't get it. I've also done a search on these boards

Is there a tutorial or some AAR that might have gone through it so that I could learn from it? I don't know why, but i'm having a heck of a hard time understanding this process. It's the only part of the game, so far, where I just chose markers, and just put them in off or def as I have no idea what it does.

Wanted to ask before I get too far. Thanks everyone...

< Message edited by Falken -- 8/24/2020 11:44:33 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Neutrality Pacts - Germany USSR - 8/25/2020 2:30:33 AM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

The trick with neutrality pacts is you know the defensive value but not the offensive value. Those are added to the actual number of units in the border areas. Since the eventual aggressor must have a certain ratio of offensive to defensive net garrison value, it becomes a gamble for the defender to keep a lot of units in the border area because if the aggressor can meet the DoW ratio, the defenders will probably get slaughtered.

What may complicate understanding of the mechanism is playing solitaire. You have to imagine you are in one of the two roles. The best example of this is the Nazi-Soviet Pact, which is mandated by the rules. Other neutrality pacts can happen in the game but understanding how the Nazi-Soviet Pact works is key to understanding how and why they are used.

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to Falken)

Post #: 2

RE: Neutrality Pacts - Germany USSR - 8/25/2020 11:47:26 AM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

The trick with the neutrality pacts is not being able to know exactly when it might get broken. You don't know your opponents offensive chit value. You don't know what the next draw of chits is going to be. There's always an amount of "Fog of War" where neutrality pacts are concerned. Can your opponent break it? Or not? If he breaks it, how bad is it if you get slaughtered on the border. Is it better to withdraw now (and invite a premature Declaration of War) or should I wait another turn (or impulse).

And for the player who might want to break the pact: what's being build by your opponent? Will that make sure that I cannot break the pact next turn? Should I move units from other parts of the map to increase my garrison value (thus accepting probably losses there)?

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Peter

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 3

RE: Neutrality Pacts - Germany USSR - 8/25/2020 4:43:24 PM

Falken

Posts: 242
Joined: 8/8/2007
From: ON, Canada
Status: offline

Hi..

Thanks for the feedback... I think my main issue is trying to understand the actual numbers and how the markers affect them, not the pact itself.

I've added an image.. this is the part i'm not getting and what it means...

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 4

RE: Neutrality Pacts - Germany USSR - 8/25/2020 6:30:24 PM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

Germany has real unit garrison value of 7.5 plus one face down offensive entry marker of value 1. Germany's defensive garrison is shown as 16 and this is due to the fact that at this point in the war the garrison values are doubled so 7.5 real garrison is doubled to 15 and Germany also has one face up defensive marker to net 16. As a 2-1 ratio is required for USSR to DoW Germany, USSR would need an offensive value of 32.

Similarly USSR only has one real garrison value and one face up defensive entry marker giving it an offensive value of 1 and a defensvie value of 3. If nothing changes then Germany could DoW since 8.5 is greater than twice the USSR defensive value. However, during the first year of a Neutrality pact neither party can DoW the other. The "No" under "Off Break" tells both powers that they cannot presently DoW the other. And the number indicates how much more garrison value is needed to reach a state where they can DoW. But again although Germany needs zero more to do so, it cannot do so until JA40 at the earliest.

This is an important table because if Germany gets over involved in the West or the Med or USSR gets over involved with Japan (as examples) then the other power can see quickly if they have the opportunity to spring a surprise DoW on the other. Careful management of the face-up/face-down status of the entry markers then comes into play. Not to mention, of course, having additional real units that can quickly arrive in the common border area.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 8/25/2020 6:36:28 PM >

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Paul

(in reply to Falken)

Post #: 5

RE: Neutrality Pacts - Germany USSR - 8/25/2020 6:32:21 PM

Orm

Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Falken

Hi..

Thanks for the feedback... I think my main issue is trying to understand the actual numbers and how the markers affect them, not the pact itself.

I've added an image.. this is the part i'm not getting and what it means...

Ok. Working through the columns in the picture above. At the end I look at the Soviet 'Off break' and see if I can explain the value 31. The two 'off break' are the two most helpful values here.

Germany:
+ Gar - 7.5 in this case - This is the garrison number that the units in the common border provides for Germany. The units are simply added together.
+ Off Garr - This is the German offensive value that is checked if Germany wants to break the pact. It is compared to the Soviet defensive value. This is the gar value plus the combined value of the offensive pact markers. 7.5 + 1 -> 8.5
+ Def Garr - This is the German defensive value that is checked if USSR wants to break the pact. The defensive value is modified depending on how long, in calender years, since the pact was made. And here it looks like it is doubled. So the defensive value is 16 (including the defensive pact marker)
+ Off Break - If the anser is 'yes' then Germany may break the pact. If 'no' then the requirements for breaking the pact is not met. The number in parenthis is how much more in offensive garrison value is needed to break the pact. Note the zero there. This is because Germany doesn't need any more units to break it. Germany is simply not yet allowed to do so because the pact may not be broken in 1939.

USSR:
+ Gar - 1 in this case - This is the garrison number that the units in the common border provides for USSR. The units are simply added together.
+ Off Garr - This is the Soviet offensive value that is checked if USSR wants to break the pact. The parenthesis shows the number of pact markers here.
+ Def Garr - This is the Soviet defensive value that is checked if Germany wants to break the pact. The defensive value is modified depending on how long since the pact was made. The parenthesis shows the number of pact markers here.
+ Off Break - Note that here is a number in parenthesis. This is how much the Soviet offensive garrison value needs to increase to be able to break the pact. Once it is allowed. So the year has to be 1940 for the value to be relevant.

Note that in order to break the pact you need to have 2:1 in odds when comparing the offensive value versus the defensive value.

xxxx

The Soviet offensive break value is currently 31. That means that USSR needs 31 more in offensive garrison value, including the value of the combined pact markers.

<German defensive garr> x 2 - <USSR offensive garr> = < USSR Off break>
16 x 2 - 1 = 31

xxxxx

Perhaps another example is needed where the pact isn't forbidden to be broken due to the year 1939 is helpful?

Also: Beware that I might have made some errors in this text.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Falken)

Post #: 6

RE: Neutrality Pacts - Germany USSR - 8/25/2020 6:33:24 PM

Orm

Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

I see that Paul already explained it.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 7

RE: Neutrality Pacts - Germany USSR - 8/25/2020 11:21:04 PM

Falken

Posts: 242
Joined: 8/8/2007
From: ON, Canada
Status: offline

Thank you paulderynck and orm,

That was excellent explanations. I could follow the numbers to the explanation that you provided. Thank you so much.

Some times, my brain just doesn't work properly :). For some reason, I thought the 1M meant 1 Million. Just realized as I was reading your notes that it meant 1 "marker", and those were the markers that I had used at the end of the turn. I put one Off Marker and One Def marker for Germany, and I put 1 Marker to the Soviet Def pool.

Thanks again. At least I'll know what to do for my end of Nov 39 move.

Really appreciate the responses. It's the one part of the game that I just couldn't get, but using examples with the numbers I provided gave me the "context" that I needed.

Thanks.

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 8