Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

You're just suggesting that the Japs go to war with the US and British. That's going to be saving them a fortune!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Irrelevant. The point is, that no collapse of government occurred, despite years of extra war in China.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The wiki article and common sense tells us that Barbarossa was a prerequisite for the Rising Sun offensive. No "signs", no "logic" lead anywhere else.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So the Royal Navy could go in at night and wipe out the invasion forces and leave the area before dawn. I am glad that you agree with me.

While in port they are defended by field artillery and eventually, coastal batteries.

Trading DDs for barges is a win for Germany.

warspite1

Well that is pretty hilarious.

Trading barges is a win for Germany..... how many barges do you think the Germans have? What happpens to the follow up waves and the replacements and the supplies when those barges are sunk? No, trading barges is not a win for Germany because they are irreplaceable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

One million men in the Turkish Army with 42 infantry divisions, two Cavalry divisions, plus assorted brigades including armour. The Turkish Straits have to be crossed under fire. So they could plan it, they just have to fight it.

This is not out of line with SPI. They have 30 divisions with one division a week arriving as reinforcement. So, some of those may have been reserves.

But, they are distributed all over Turkey (see the attached shot), and 21 of those divisions (and all the reinforcements) are "Static" divisions - like they don't have transport for their heavy equipment and have to manhandle it everywhere in order to move. The Turks were very poorly equipped.

This makes them far less than ideal. They have to decide far in advance just where they will be deployed, and that's pretty much where they will stay. SPI has 12 divisions in front of the Bosporus and one division in Istanbul. If they redistribute that to the Sea of Marmara, the Germans will just blitz through Istanbul directly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Turkish Air Force had 500 aircraft, more later. The Luftwaffe could not destroy the RAF Fighter Command, the Turkish Air Force would last awhile. And where would the Luftwaffe be based initially?

Bulgaria and Greece. The RAF was protected by the Channel.

And, since there is no Barbarossa, all the air assets that would have been used for that will be available for Turkey. The Soviets lost about 2000 aircraft on week one, recall.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Trading DDs for barges is a win for Germany.

warspite1

Well that is pretty hilarious.

Trading barges is a win for Germany..... how many barges do you think the Germans have? What happpens to the follow up waves and the replacements and the supplies when those barges are sunk? No, trading barges is not a win for Germany because they are irreplaceable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

What are you talking about now??

quote:

Are we ignoring July 1944 after the failure to secure a withdrawal from China then? Is that what we are playing here, ignore the bits you don’t like?

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Nope. Only if you ignore the situation that Japan are facing. Barbarossa was NOT a prerequisite, in real life Barbarossa meant the question - North or South - was effectively answered because it took the decision largely away. But with no Barbarossa the same options still face Japan, the same problems still face Japan, and the same solutions still face Japan. Nothing, but nothing says they can’t take the same path, and all signs and logic heads them south.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

With the barges in port during the invasion they are not transporting men, equipment, and/or supplies across the Channel so that is the win for the United Kingdom. The RAF bomber command would still be bombing them so no destroyers would be needed while the barges are still being sunk. United Kingdom wins, Nazi Germany and Curtis Lemay lose.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Trading DDs for barges is a win for Germany.

warspite1

Well that is pretty hilarious.

Trading barges is a win for Germany..... how many barges do you think the Germans have? What happpens to the follow up waves and the replacements and the supplies when those barges are sunk? No, trading barges is not a win for Germany because they are irreplaceable.

Yes, it is hilarious that you would think that! How many DDs does Britain have? There are no follow up waves and replacements, because no Sea Lion will occur! Tricking the British into burning their DDs for piddling barges would be a monstrous coup!

And barges are far more replaceable than DDs, even if Sea Lion was to occur!

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Who gives a $hit about a SPI game and their setup and definitions?

quote:

Those divisions are not static, nailed to the ground with their foot. They can and would be moved. There are railroads and other ways to move them. Did you ever hear about the Parisian taxi service?

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Poorly equipped divisions are still tough to dislodge on an amphibious invasion, especially when the attacker has no naval surface vessels to keep a Battle Cruiser away along with Destroyers and other vessels. Civilian smaller vessels could easily have guns mounted on them to destroy those unescorted barges.

quote:

France and Britain had also promised to help arm Turkey and Turkey was eligible for Lend Lease if the Turks wanted it. That is besides all of the equipment and supplies availible from the Soviets - especially if the Soviets are exchanging their T-26s, BT-5s and BT-7s for T-34s and KV-1/2s.

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Most of those Soviet aircraft destroyed on the ground did not have pilots at the airfields. The pilots were elsewhere being trained on newer aircraft which the Soviets were building to replace the older aircraft. Germany counted ground aircraft kills for their pilots and not just air-to-air kills.

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So this would be after Greece? At least there is a timeline for that. Turkey would have fun with the British invading Greek islands, and allowing the RAF to base in Turkey to bomb Polesti!

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Meanwhile, the Soviets continue to produce more T-34s, KV-1/2s, MiGs and IL-2s.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Since the RAF would be mostly unopposed over France and Northwest Germany, the RAF would have fun!

quote:

Turkey could lose Thrace and still be fairly intact. There is no Germany Navy in the area, the Italian Navy would be out numbered and the Bulgarian and Romanian navies (if they participated in this war) would not be strong enough and vulnerable to Turkish and RAF air action in the Black Sea if the Turkish Navy did not wipe those navies out if they left port.

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Bulgaria had a non-aggression pact with Turkey. Bulgaria also never declared war on the Soviet Union nor the United Stated and the United Kingdom until after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

According to you, the Japs are in a pickle because of the cost of the war in China. So, your solution for them is......to go to war with the US and Britain!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

That was obviously because of the War in the Pacific. And, it was four years later.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Again, you have no basis for that. I have the wiki article that says the opposite.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

With the barges in port during the invasion they are not transporting men, equipment, and/or supplies across the Channel so that is the win for the United Kingdom. The RAF bomber command would still be bombing them so no destroyers would be needed while the barges are still being sunk. United Kingdom wins, Nazi Germany and Curtis Lemay lose.

The barges are only there to sucker the British about German plans.

And, bombing naval targets in port is a daylight operation. So, that would reverse the roles of the participants in the BoB. British escorts would be at the end of their range. German pilots shot down would go back to combat, British ones would go to POW camps. Trading barges for the RAF is also a good deal for Germany.

quote:

As September progressed, so the level of Bomber Command's attack increased. On the night of 13-14, the whole of the available bomber force was dispatched against the barges. The following night the number of sorties rose to 176 and again to 192 on 17 September. The operations enjoyed greater success than those aimed at Bomber Command's other targets.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

And, bombing naval targets in port is a daylight operation. So, that would reverse the roles of the participants in the BoB. British escorts would be at the end of their range. German pilots shot down would go back to combat, British ones would go to POW camps. Trading barges for the RAF is also a good deal for Germany.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Who gives a $hit about a SPI game and their setup and definitions?

It represents the opinions of professional wargame designers. People who had their opinions validated by continual purchases of their product over the course of years. No one on this board can match that.

By the way, putting that thing together was fun! Brought back old memories.

quote:

Those divisions are not static, nailed to the ground with their foot. They can and would be moved. There are railroads and other ways to move them. Did you ever hear about the Parisian taxi service?

Taxis can't tow field guns. And their static condition might also be due to their training, if they had never been trained above garrison status. The caliber of troops depends upon their training, commitment, and caliber of their officers and commanders. The Turkish army had expanded rapidly since 1938. They are a third rate power. Their divisions were probably as poorly trained and officered as they were equipped.

quote:

Poorly equipped divisions are still tough to dislodge on an amphibious invasion, especially when the attacker has no naval surface vessels to keep a Battle Cruiser away along with Destroyers and other vessels. Civilian smaller vessels could easily have guns mounted on them to destroy those unescorted barges.

Again, if they redeploy so that they cover the entire length of the Sea of Marmara, then they won't be as strong in front of Istanbul. The Germans will just bowl over them there.

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France and Britain had also promised to help arm Turkey and Turkey was eligible for Lend Lease if the Turks wanted it. That is besides all of the equipment and supplies availible from the Soviets - especially if the Soviets are exchanging their T-26s, BT-5s and BT-7s for T-34s and KV-1/2s.

France is now Vichy. Britain couldn't save Greece. The Soviets are going to be thinking of themselves.

quote:

Most of those Soviet aircraft destroyed on the ground did not have pilots at the airfields. The pilots were elsewhere being trained on newer aircraft which the Soviets were building to replace the older aircraft. Germany counted ground aircraft kills for their pilots and not just air-to-air kills.

Still destroys the aircraft, though.

quote:

So this would be after Greece? At least there is a timeline for that. Turkey would have fun with the British invading Greek islands, and allowing the RAF to base in Turkey to bomb Polesti!

They would have to fly through a lot Luftwaffe. And the British were sent fleeing after Greece.

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Meanwhile, the Soviets continue to produce more T-34s, KV-1/2s, MiGs and IL-2s.

At a peace-time rate. Meanwhile, Baku comes closer to the Barbarossa start line.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Since the RAF would be mostly unopposed over France and Northwest Germany, the RAF would have fun!

The situation if France would be the same as historical. Only the Luftwaffe scheduled to be used in Barbarossa would be available for Turkey.

quote:

Turkey could lose Thrace and still be fairly intact. There is no Germany Navy in the area, the Italian Navy would be out numbered and the Bulgarian and Romanian navies (if they participated in this war) would not be strong enough and vulnerable to Turkish and RAF air action in the Black Sea if the Turkish Navy did not wipe those navies out if they left port.

Again, the Luftwaffe would torch any naval forces in the Sea of Marmara.

quote:

Bulgaria had a non-aggression pact with Turkey. Bulgaria also never declared war on the Soviet Union nor the United States and the United Kingdom until after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

Germany had a non-aggression pact with the Soviet Union, too.

Germany doesn't need to be in Bulgaria anyway. They can attack through Greece. Bulgaria needn't be involved, militarily.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

As a long time SPI and DG War In Europe (WIE) (and the CWIE2 game) player of WIE Bob (aka Curtis Lemay) is not giving WIE it's proper perspective. In that game there is a Political game as well and Bob (I don't know why he uses a dead general's name instead of his own, but then again I am sure warspite's mother did not name him after a battle ship, but then again...and I don't think Ranger Joe's mom called him Ranger, but then again...,lol) is mis representing WIE.

Anyway, in SPI the Political game has Political Points are awarded based on Axis and Allied actions, which can be either positive or negative and then depending on where the Political level is certain (predetermined things, like Italy activating or Bulgaria joining the Axis, or the US entering early) take place.

So what Bob is not showing is in a real game of WIE its very very risky for the Germans to go after Spain (and as pointed out by warspite) and it makes not sense, since if you can do enough they will activate on the Axis side, but here is the rub that Bob has not stated (and others have) the Germans only have so much Production points to purchase new units (i.e., infantry divisions and static divisions) and you have to have the correct number of Garrisons in place or partisans (which can turn out to be quite nasty) will pop up. Poland and France have to be garrisoned. Poland requires 15 divisions (as does Turkey), and Belgium, Netherlands and Denmark each require 2 divisions each, Greece and Portugal each require 5 divisions, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland (which is impassible) each require 10 divisions and lastly, France, Spain and the UK require 30 divisions each in that game.

So just taking WIE with the proposed Med option, with the Axis accepting Vichy France, they would already have to keep 56 divisions (France, Poland, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark and Norway) in Garrison. They start the 1940 CG with 120 Infantry divisions (in Germany and 15 in Garrison in Poland), 10 Pz Divisions, 6 Mech Divisions, 1 Cav division and 1 security division.

Usually in WIE a somewhat seasoned player can take France out in 6-10 turns, I think the average is about 8 to 10 turns. The best I know of is myself, I took out France (using various new rules) in 4 turns (in CWIE2).

That leaves 64 German divisions to attack Spain, but that does not count the Political cost of doing so, nor the preparation needed for Russia NOR the losses incurred taking out France (usualy 10 to 20 Divisions flipped).

From my memory, I can't recall anyone going for Spain, if they did they forgo Russia in 41 and risk Russia attacking in 42.

I have seen and heard more going for Sealion and that in that game is very costly (heck Norway is a giant pain in the buttocks in that game to take in one turn, if the Germans don't the British and French send 1-4 divisions into Norway to cause havoc.

So Bob is not representing WIE very well, most likely since he has not even played it in decades. I have played it many times and in the CWIE2 version I was a play tester and helped with the scenario design (mainly to get the SPI rules in place over the DG ones).

So warspite and Ranger Joe have both made many valid points.

Lastly, anyone staking any validation or historical reference in Wikipedia is a fool.

Anyone can create an account, sign into Wikipedia and edit the content to their hearts content, how valid is that data now? Worthless.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

By the way you are right, mummy warspite didn't name me after the greatest warship ever (FACT) , I chose that for obvious reasons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The British would not be stupid either, they would send equipment and probably military units as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The Soviets had sold equipment to Turkey and they would not be blind to the risk of a Nazi German occupied Turkey.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

You have the Luftwaffe everywhere and doing everything. It could not and would not be able to do everything that you want it to do, all at the same time. Besides, they are marching while carrying signs in France to try and scare the British.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The US would also have offered weapons under Lend-Lease.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

By the way you are right, mummy warspite didn't name me after the greatest warship ever (FACT) , I chose that for obvious reasons.

If you had been a girl, would you be Queen Elizabeth?

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If the Germans only attacked through Greece, that makes a smaller front and much easier to defend.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

As a long time SPI and DG War In Europe (WIE) (and the CWIE2 game) player of WIE Bob (aka Curtis Lemay) is not giving WIE it's proper perspective. In that game there is a Political game as well and Bob (I don't know why he uses a dead general's name instead of his own, but then again I am sure warspite's mother did not name him after a battle ship, but then again...and I don't think Ranger Joe's mom called him Ranger, but then again...,lol) is mis representing WIE.

Anyway, in SPI the Political game has Political Points are awarded based on Axis and Allied actions, which can be either positive or negative and then depending on where the Political level is certain (predetermined things, like Italy activating or Bulgaria joining the Axis, or the US entering early) take place.

So what Bob is not showing is in a real game of WIE its very very risky for the Germans to go after Spain (and as pointed out by warspite) and it makes not sense, since if you can do enough they will activate on the Axis side, but here is the rub that Bob has not stated (and others have) the Germans only have so much Production points to purchase new units (i.e., infantry divisions and static divisions) and you have to have the correct number of Garrisons in place or partisans (which can turn out to be quite nasty) will pop up. Poland and France have to be garrisoned. Poland requires 15 divisions (as does Turkey), and Belgium, Netherlands and Denmark each require 2 divisions each, Greece and Portugal each require 5 divisions, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland (which is impassible) each require 10 divisions and lastly, France, Spain and the UK require 30 divisions each in that game.

So just taking WIE with the proposed Med option, with the Axis accepting Vichy France, they would already have to keep 56 divisions (France, Poland, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark and Norway) in Garrison. They start the 1940 CG with 120 Infantry divisions (in Germany and 15 in Garrison in Poland), 10 Pz Divisions, 6 Mech Divisions, 1 Cav division and 1 security division.

Usually in WIE a somewhat seasoned player can take France out in 6-10 turns, I think the average is about 8 to 10 turns. The best I know of is myself, I took out France (using various new rules) in 4 turns (in CWIE2).

That leaves 64 German divisions to attack Spain, but that does not count the Political cost of doing so, nor the preparation needed for Russia NOR the losses incurred taking out France (usualy 10 to 20 Divisions flipped).

From my memory, I can't recall anyone going for Spain, if they did they forgo Russia in 41 and risk Russia attacking in 42.

I have seen and heard more going for Sealion and that in that game is very costly (heck Norway is a giant pain in the buttocks in that game to take in one turn, if the Germans don't the British and French send 1-4 divisions into Norway to cause havoc.

So Bob is not representing WIE very well, most likely since he has not even played it in decades. I have played it many times and in the CWIE2 version I was a play tester and helped with the scenario design (mainly to get the SPI rules in place over the DG ones).

So warspite and Ranger Joe have both made many valid points.

Lastly, anyone staking any validation or historical reference in Wikipedia is a fool.

Anyone can create an account, sign into Wikipedia and edit the content to their hearts content, how valid is that data now? Worthless.

warspite1

Thanks for this helpful contribution Zovs. I wonder why there was no mention of the political?

What I find so strange is that he is prepared to accept the rules of a game as being some sort of fact, and what would definitely happen. The obvious example is Rule 13b (okay it may not be 13b ). The fact that the game states Spain surrender on taking the capital means it must happen that way in any counter-factual.

He seems to fail to understand that the rule could have been written that way for a number of reasons: e.g. counter limitations as some Spaniards fought on while others surrendered, or it was just too complicated to incorporate into the game mechanics etc etc.

Instead it should be for us as war gamers and military enthusiasts to come up with our take on the situation and put across possible outcomes based on all the pertinent factors we can think of.

I am particularly interested to hear you mention the number of divisions required for occupation. That accords similarly to Yugoslavia/Greece in real life. Presumably in the game the Axis can't just pile Spain full of Italian divisions?

I agree with you about Wiki, although I don't actually have any problem with the sentence he is quoting. The sentence is fine, the problem is that he is using that sentence as some sort of proof for what Japan would have done without a Barbarossa and that is simply not the case.

By the way you are right, mummy warspite didn't name me after the greatest warship ever (FACT) , I chose that for obvious reasons. By the way why Zovs as an avatar if I may ask.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

By the way you are right, mummy warspite didn't name me after the greatest warship ever (FACT) , I chose that for obvious reasons.

If you had been a girl, would you be Queen Elizabeth?

warspite1

No, I would have been warspite1 - the name is gender neutral - and remember the actual ship was female (as all ships are).

HMS Warspite was a woman of a certain age that, by 1939, had been around the block a few times. She was a lady (when she needed to be) and 100% woman. She knew where it was at.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Just for comparison, here's the set up for France 1940.

German forces are 10 Panzer Divisions (strength 10 each), 6 Mech Divisions (strength 8 each), 96 Infantry Divisions (strength 6 each), 2 Panzer Brigades (strength 3 each), and 3 Para Regiments (strength 2 each). (Total strength 736).

Contrast the defense they face here (lasted 6 weeks) vs. the defense they face from Spain and Turkey.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Just for comparison, here's the set up for France 1940.

German forces are 10 Panzer Divisions (strength 10 each), 6 Mech Divisions (strength 8 each), 96 Infantry Divisions (strength 6 each), 2 Panzer Brigades (strength 3 each), and 3 Para Regiments (strength 2 each). (Total strength 736).

Contrast the defense they face here (lasted 6 weeks) vs. the defense they face from Spain and Turkey.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

By the way you are right, mummy warspite didn't name me after the greatest warship ever (FACT) , I chose that for obvious reasons.

If you had been a girl, would you be Queen Elizabeth?

warspite1

No, I would have been warspite1 - the name is gender neutral - and remember the actual ship was female (as all ships are).

HMS Warspite was a woman of a certain age that, by 1939, had been around the block a few times. She was a lady (when she needed to be) and 100% woman. She knew where it was at.

Well, the Bismark's only captain preferred to call his ship a he. Because he was of the opinion that such a powerful ship could only be a he.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Thanks for this helpful contribution Zovs. I wonder why there was no mention of the political?

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
What I find so strange is that he is prepared to accept the rules of a game as being some sort of fact, and what would definitely happen. The obvious example is Rule 13b (okay it may not be 13b ). The fact that the game states Spain surrender on taking the capital means it must happen that way in any counter-factual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
He seems to fail to understand that the rule could have been written that way for a number of reasons: e.g. counter limitations as some Spaniards fought on while others surrendered, or it was just too complicated to incorporate into the game mechanics etc etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Instead it should be for us as war gamers and military enthusiasts to come up with our take on the situation and put across possible outcomes based on all the pertinent factors we can think of.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I am particularly interested to hear you mention the number of divisions required for occupation. That accords similarly to Yugoslavia/Greece in real life. Presumably in the game the Axis can't just pile Spain full of Italian divisions?

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I agree with you about Wiki, although I don't actually have any problem with the sentence he is quoting. The sentence is fine, the problem is that he is using that sentence as some sort of proof for what Japan would have done without a Barbarossa and that is simply not the case.

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
By the way you are right, mummy warspite didn't name me after the greatest warship ever (FACT) , I chose that for obvious reasons. By the way why Zovs as an avatar if I may ask.

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