Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Neilster

I found this...

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ORIGINAL: rkr1958

I read the book, "A Bridge Too Far" by Corenelius Ryan and saw the movie by the same title for the first time back when I was in college in the late '70s.

So to set the scene and question: Lt. General Horrocks (commander XXX corps), Brig. General Gavin (commander 82nd airborne), Major General Sosabowski (commander Polish airborne brigade) and Lt. Colonel Vandeleur (battalion commander of XXX corps spearhead) are at the top of church tower looking at the bridge at Arnhem just over a mile away. Brig. General Gavin and Lt. Col Vandeleur are urging Lt. General Horrocks to make a dash to the bridge, breakthrough and link up with Lt. Col Frost (battalion commander British 1st airborne) holding the Rhine side of the bridge. However, Lt. General Horrocks concedes that its a lost cause and that we now need to organize the evacuation of the what can be saved of the British 1st airborne. But of course this didn't include Lt. Col Frost and his men, who were soon to surrender. Again, I digress.

My questions are simple really ... why didn't XXX corps make a push to breakthrough that last mile?

It wasn't until 7 month later in April 1945 that the allies liberate Arnhem. Why? If this route into the Rhur was so critical why didn't the allies regroup and try to capture the bridge before then?

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ORIGINAL: rkr1958

I read the book, "A Bridge Too Far" by Corenelius Ryan and saw the movie by the same title for the first time back when I was in college in the late '70s.

I've re-watched the move probably two or three times since then. Probably once a decade or so. The latest re-watch was last evening. Actually last evening and the previous one. I had to split it up over two evening as this is a long movie (almost 3-hours) and I started it too late the first evening to finish. Not as young as I once was.

I digress. Over the years since the book and movie first came out my knowledge of history has matured. As best as I can recall the movie follows the book closely. I've only read the book once and that was over 40-years ago. My question, which I promise I'll get to, never really struck me until last night near the end.

So to set the scene and question: Lt. General Horrocks (commander XXX corps), Brig. General Gavin (commander 82nd airborne), Major General Sosabowski (commander Polish airborne brigade) and Lt. Colonel Vandeleur (battalion commander of XXX corps spearhead) are at the top of church tower looking at the bridge at Arnhem just over a mile away. Brig. General Gavin and Lt. Col Vandeleur are urging Lt. General Horrocks to make a dash to the bridge, breakthrough and link up with Lt. Col Frost (battalion commander British 1st airborne) holding the Rhine side of the bridge. However, Lt. General Horrocks concedes that its a lost cause and that we now need to organize the evacuation of the what can be saved of the British 1st airborne. But of course this didn't include Lt. Col Frost and his men, who were soon to surrender. Again, I digress.

My questions are simple really ... why didn't XXX corps make a push to breakthrough that last mile?

It wasn't until 7 month later in April 1945 that the allies liberate Arnhem. Why? If this route into the Rhur was so critical why didn't the allies regroup and try to capture the bridge before then?

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ORIGINAL: brian brian

I just skimmed the applicable portions of Rick Anderson’s relatively recent “Guns At Last Light” which does focus on American experiences.

By the time XXX Corps had Arnhem within visual range, the British lodgement at the base of the bridge on downtown Armhem had already been squeezed out by the SS troops. XXX Corps and the Polish paratroopers could only assist in the withdrawal of the rest of 6th Airborne back across the Rhine to the west, where XXX Corps did reach the river.

Atkinson’s book included a quote from 6th Airborne’s Colonel Frost, the commander at the bridge (captured), that the SS did fight fairly out of respect for the tenacity of the British paras, including one final temporary cease fire for removal of wounded from the surrounded pocket. The SS did execute any Dutch civilians found assisting the British however.

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ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

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ORIGINAL: Neilster

I found this...

Problem is that all these calculations are made according to official inflation rates which have nothing to do with real inflation rates.

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ORIGINAL: brian brian

If I luck into the vicinity of a good book store (rare for me), I will probably start in on Atkinson’s new trilogy on the American Revolution.


My historical WWII question lately is - whatever happened to the eastern flank of Operation Dragoon? Did the Allies even try cracking through the Alps there? Sure that would favor the defender - but so did operations in the spine of Italy.

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ORIGINAL: rkr1958

Not a question but something I just learned from reading Truscott's book, "Command Decisions". Probably something that most of you all ready know and I should know. Anyway,

Not surprisingly the allies (decided) to treat Germany after the war as a conquered nation (I knew this :) ). However, and this is what I learned, they decided to treat Austria as a liberated nation.

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ORIGINAL: eouellet

Back to the original question:
My questions are simple really ... why didn't XXX corps make a push to breakthrough that last mile?

The XXX corps was advancing mostly along a narrow axis, essentially along the road leading to Arnhem. Because the corridor was narrow, the front division, the Armored Guards, could only have a frontage of one brigade at a time. The Germans engaged them in a series of ambushes, and by the time the Guards division was near Arnhem they had enough losses and spent much supply that it would have been suicidal trying to take Arnhem at that point. In MWIF terms, the XXX corps was stopped because it was moving in an enemy ZOC.

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ORIGINAL: brian brian

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ORIGINAL: eouellet

Back to the original question:
My questions are simple really ... why didn't XXX corps make a push to breakthrough that last mile?

The XXX corps was advancing mostly along a narrow axis, essentially along the road leading to Arnhem. Because the corridor was narrow, the front division, the Armored Guards, could only have a frontage of one brigade at a time. The Germans engaged them in a series of ambushes, and by the time the Guards division was near Arnhem they had enough losses and spent much supply that it would have been suicidal trying to take Arnhem at that point. In MWIF terms, the XXX corps was stopped because it was moving in an enemy ZOC.

Or perhaps a CW ARM + MOT + mot division + USA PARA attacked a single German MIL on the blitz table and the result was a 1/1 with no breakthrough and an attacker flip. While the British para div landed on an SS mech div (flipped after rail movement) and the valiant Red Devils piece was eliminated. The poor roll by the CW player reflected the intelligence failure that did not detect the presence of the SS units refitting near Arnhem; while the roll for the XXX corps attack was just average but reflected the reality of a narrow front / weak flank support / one hex attack.