Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Are you purposely trying to be obtuse? How did the Germans get to Athens? Well they didn't take the route we are talking about (but you've somehow decided to totally ignore).

So let's be clear. A US military study - you know, logistics guys, staff officers, that sort of thing - decide that the Greek troops facing the Italians in the Northwest of the country were reliant upon supply from Salonika. Unlike the northeast of the country, the northwest is very mountainous and communication is difficult. That is what the US military guys who studied this came up with. But, quite clearly you've done your own in-depth analysis of the terrain and the logistical issues - you've looked at an SPI map....

Having looked, really hard, at that map, how do you answer (yet again) this point?

Are you seriously saying that supply lines are blocked by HILLS?!!

If you can move normal military units (not Mountain units) over terrain, the supply columns can follow.

warspite1

No. I am not. I have never been in the military, I've never been to the hills of northwestern Greece/Albania.

That is why I may have an opinion and I may offer up an opinion, but it is purely that. When I read what professional soldiers - who have made a study of the terrain and know what is involved in supplying a Greek army - have to say, I tend to take notice of it and not simply dismiss it out of hand because it doesn't fit what I want it to say.

Note that Axis units were able to move all over Greece, including across the spine of the main mountain chain. As I said, if a military unit (with towed artillery) can move through terrain, so can supply columns.

Regardless, supplies could have run from Athens to the west coast, then to the Albanian front.




The real reason they couldn't be supplied via Athens is because the German lines had advanced so quickly they interdicted any supply path.

And, the key point here is: Note all the combat across rugged terrain that ensued. I repeat, claims that the Germans never encountered terrain like in Spain or Turkey were false.

As can be seen from an actual, real map with the arrows of the German movements, they went through the river valleys between the mountains and not over them. They also attacked where the majority of the Allied military was not.

Here is something to read about loaded truck operations on grades:

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/trr/1987/1106v2/1106v2-011.pdf

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

As I have made crystal clear, options were presented Hitler (why do you say they weren't?)

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and indeed he ultimately did decide that he wanted to take out Gibraltar. If you'd bothered to read what I wrote, two of the occasions Jodl mentions Gibraltar are before Italy is even in the war. But not until late summer was Hitler seemingly much interested.

But Franco wouldn't play ball. He tried very hard to make Franco change his mind, but Franco would not budge on demands that Hitler either couldn't accept (military hardware), wouldn't accept (food - although that was probably pushing it too) or could accept but would cause him too many problems (French Morocco). Furthermore Hitler's own shopping list (including the transfer of one Canary Island!) was too much for Franco.

Despite a summer of intense frustration where he'd seen Goering let him down on his boasts and a lot of the hard won victories were being negated by months of stagnation and wasted time (which Germany didn't have to spare) and defeat, Hitler still refused to countenance attacking Spain.

The issue is when such a "staff Study" was to be prepared. I have tried to make my case for when - if you believe this should have been top of Hitler's priority list in 1939, why don't YOU try and put some effort in for a change and make YOUR case.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

And we're back to not bothering to read my posts again. When I have suggested otherwise then sure, you can post that comment as relevant in responses to me. But once again. And for the hundredth time. And for the avoidance of doubt (I wish ) I have never said anything to the contrary.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Did you not read the section on the Balkans???? So which part of the Balkans is in Northern Europe???? Yugoslavia and Greece were in the Italian sphere of interest. Hitler made numerous plans in the Balkans and never involved Mussolini. Are you seriously counting Romania - or indeed any part of the Balkans as Northern Europe????

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As history showed, Italy would be involved in plans to the extent that Hitler believed Mussolini should be involved.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

And that ladies and gentlemen is about as naïve a post as any written in this entire thread.

Sentence one - you have no clue and this is proven by the use of the word Axis*. One of the main reasons I've said this is a DAFS is because everyone in your scenario is happy to subordinate themselves entirely to Germany. NO, Mussolini won't be happy that Franco has been replaced with a German puppet. And that German puppet now controls the keys to the western exit.

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Sentence two and three - erm.... I tell you what, I'll leave that and allow you time to think about it.

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* Which I seem to recall you doing when trying to disingenuously make the claim that Japan was bound by the armistice in its dealings with Vichy France. No, Curtis Lemay, Axis and Germany are not the same thing. As well you know.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

I bow to your in depth knowledge of the geography of northwest Greece. Next time I have a choice between you and an SPI game map and a US military study, I'll be sure to kick the army professionals into the tall grass.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

So if I say Northern Europe as opposed to the Med, you're going to parse that in the most craven fashion just to gain brownie points? I have to list every country Mussolini would not need to be informed about? Good grief!

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Another aspect of the “staff study” that suspends disbelief – perhaps the biggest – is that Hitler would even consider attacking Spain. Many have commented on this thread that they simply don’t believe Hitler would have considered this. German Military Strategy and Spain in World War II (Burdick) brings this into focus. I won’t repeat the reasons why such a move would have been so difficult for Hitler to have ordered. These have been outlined numerous times and, let’s face it, are pretty obvious.

There was one reason that I considered that Hitler might just have thrown all those arguments out of the window and just ordered the operation anyway. I have kept in mind that in making this decision, Barbarossa would be postponed (which is another massive leap but again let’s suspend disbelief and just go with that too).

Hitler was not a man who liked to be said no to, and it could be argued that he was particularly aggrieved at Franco’s stance. Why? Well, German blood helped to install Franco in the first place and Franco, in refusing, was simply being ungrateful and unreasonable.

Okay…. but what could tip Hitler over the edge? Well in addition to the above, by late September, when Hitler was actually sold on the need for taking Gibraltar, there was also the following to consider:

- Hitler had seen the summer months of 1940 wasted following the armistice with France.
- Hitler’s dream of bringing the UK to heel were dashed
- Worse, in being dashed, the Luftwaffe had been severely mauled
- The Kriegsmarine had been severely mauled in Norway
- Mussolini had declared war and Hitler expected this announcement to be followed by a surprise attack on Corsica or Malta…. but instead, Mussolini’s forces had done..... nothing, other than a recent march over the border into Egypt, whereupon they set up camp.

So, added to Franco’s ungratefulness we have Hitler who is now in a very bad mood about how things are not panning out. As we enter the New Year and move into January and February, Franco is still stalling - despite making positive noises - and to add to the above:

- The Battle of Britain has been a bit of a disaster
- The Italian attack on Greece has failed – and indeed they are in danger of losing Albania!
- Part of the Italian fleet has been crippled at Taranto
- The Italians have suffered defeat after defeat and have been pushed back out of Egypt, out of Cyrenaica and back into Tripolitania.
- Hitler has already had to send the first of two divisions to Libya to stop a complete collapse.

Finally Hitler snaps, gets real and admits that Germany can’t possibly open up a second front with the USSR with all this going on. Incensed by everything going wrong, Hitler postpones Barbarossa, and the attack on Spain happens in the Spring of 1941.

Again, this is just a suggestion to make the scenario work and not my personal opinion of what was possible.

What the book makes clear are the tortured back and forwards between Franco and Hitler. I hadn’t realised that the Germans had not only selected the forces and commanders (this I knew from various war games), but that the assault forces had actually undergone specific training (at locations that best mirrored the target). There was also extensive intelligence, reconnaissance and survey work carried out, not only targeting Gibraltar, but also the state of Spain’s infrastructure and how difficult it was going to be to get down to Gibraltar – even in the non-hostile environment envisaged.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

I bow to your in depth knowledge of the geography of northwest Greece. Next time I have a choice between you and an SPI game map and a US military study, I'll be sure to kick the army professionals into the tall grass.

How about that map I posted? It sure seems to show the Axis marching all over Greece. Maybe you didn't read those professionals right.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Are you purposely trying to be obtuse? How did the Germans get to Athens? Well they didn't take the route we are talking about (but you've somehow decided to totally ignore).

So let's be clear. A US military study - you know, logistics guys, staff officers, that sort of thing - decide that the Greek troops facing the Italians in the Northwest of the country were reliant upon supply from Salonika. Unlike the northeast of the country, the northwest is very mountainous and communication is difficult. That is what the US military guys who studied this came up with. But, quite clearly you've done your own in-depth analysis of the terrain and the logistical issues - you've looked at an SPI map....

Having looked, really hard, at that map, how do you answer (yet again) this point?

Are you seriously saying that supply lines are blocked by HILLS?!!

If you can move normal military units (not Mountain units) over terrain, the supply columns can follow.

warspite1

No. I am not. I have never been in the military, I've never been to the hills of northwestern Greece/Albania.

That is why I may have an opinion and I may offer up an opinion, but it is purely that. When I read what professional soldiers - who have made a study of the terrain and know what is involved in supplying a Greek army - have to say, I tend to take notice of it and not simply dismiss it out of hand because it doesn't fit what I want it to say.

Note that Axis units were able to move all over Greece, including across the spine of the main mountain chain. As I said, if a military unit (with towed artillery) can move through terrain, so can supply columns.

Regardless, supplies could have run from Athens to the west coast, then to the Albanian front.




The real reason they couldn't be supplied via Athens is because the German lines had advanced so quickly they interdicted any supply path.

And, the key point here is: Note all the combat across rugged terrain that ensued. I repeat, claims that the Germans never encountered terrain like in Spain or Turkey were false.

As can be seen from an actual, real map with the arrows of the German movements, they went through the river valleys between the mountains and not over them. They also attacked where the majority of the Allied military was not.

Here is something to read about loaded truck operations on grades:

http://onlinepubs.trb.org/Onlinepubs/trr/1987/1106v2/1106v2-011.pdf

Oh! They just took the rivers and left the hills themselves to the enemy?? Are you out of your mind? Of course they had to clear the hills too. And Turkey and Spain have rivers through the hills too. And they will attack where the Spanish and Turks are not as well.

Do you have a link about loaded trucks pulling artillery on grade? Are you seriously saying the German army is going to be ground to a halt by ROAD GRADES!!!??? Talk about desperation.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Not the specific option I'm proposing - which is what I actually said, had you read it.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

When it is prepared will make a difference as to whether it can convince Hitler. If it is prepared from the get go, it has a much better chance of being adopted.

As I have said, all that is required to tumble to it is a recognition that they don't have reasonable chances to get across the channel and they will need Middle Eastern oil. Also, if Italy joins up, making the Med an Axis lake will greatly reduce the threat to them.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

And we're back to not bothering to read my posts again. When I have suggested otherwise then sure, you can post that comment as relevant in responses to me. But once again. And for the hundredth time. And for the avoidance of doubt (I wish ) I have never said anything to the contrary.

Others did. You're not the only one I'm up against.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

That's all I ever meant. And the Germans adopting a Med strategy would definitely be one of those cases.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Italy is in the war and it is definitely better for Gibraltar to be controlled by an Axis power than an Allied power from their perspective.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I stand by them. Why would the Germans care about the Med if Italy is not in the war? Italy stays neutral the Germans can move straight on to Turkey.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Japan was part of the Axis, and Axis capture of a Vichy colony didn't have any impact on Vichy status. To say that Japan's Axis status was irrelevant to Vichy is nonsense.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

I bow to your in depth knowledge of the geography of northwest Greece. Next time I have a choice between you and an SPI game map and a US military study, I'll be sure to kick the army professionals into the tall grass.

How about that map I posted? It sure seems to show the Axis marching all over Greece. Maybe you didn't read those professionals right.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Maybe quit calling it a Dream Axis Fanboi Scenario and call it a Dream Axis Fanboi Territory and thus DAFT then anybody favoring it would then be a DAFT person.

Maybe he should not grow up, maybe he should mature a little. I, for obvious reasons, won't state mature a little more.

Anybody still under the illusion that this isn't an insult? Of course it's an insult. And everyone who takes the German side of a historical argument is eventually smeared with it. I expect it from this character - every post he makes contains an insult. He's not fit to have a conversation with. But I thought Warspite1 was finer stuff.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Italy is in the war and it is definitely better for Gibraltar to be controlled by an Axis power than an Allied power from their perspective.

warspite1

Better Germany than Britain? In the immediate term, yes. But that is not what this is about, and again to suggest otherwise evidences that you just seem incapable of looking at any country, any leader, other than Germany and Hitler in trying to think about national interest.

How many more examples do you need of Italy's (and of course Mussolini's) feelings toward Germany. How many more examples do you need of Mussolini's relationship with Franco and the understanding that Mussolini got from Franco in terms of Italy's place in the Med?

You just ignore everything and have this tunnel-vision about Germany and Hitler and how what is good for them is clearly, and by definition, good for everyone else.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Lemay has also admitted that the Spain part of the strategy is only possible with Italy in the war – he said “The only reason Spain needs to be included in the plans is to protect Italy. If Italy stays neutral, Spain is safe”.

Okay so, on that basis, there would have been no conversations about Spain until 10 June, when Mussolini decided to enter a war on the basis it was already won. As we know, in the weeks and months leading up to the fall of France, Hitler had had his plate full – he certainly had no time to consider operations that weren’t even possible at that time.

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Lemay believes a July start date for an attack on Spain is possible because, as we know, he ignores the political and the economic, and he also ignores that not everyone in World War II was working for Germany’s benefit.

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But it has also been touched upon that he’s ignored the military and the time it would take for the Germans to rest and refit after Yellow and Red.

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But what this book makes clear is that he’s also ignored what the German military felt it necessary to do to prepare for Felix i.e. an operation against Gibraltar remember, with active and full Spanish co-operation. The amount of undercover intelligence gathering and reconnaissance work was huge. The amount – and more importantly the length - of specialist training that the proposed assault forces undertook, meant a July start would have been simply impossible.

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But perhaps even more worrying for Lemay’s “staff study” are the comments about the Spanish infrastructure – and no, this is not confined to the rail roads which we've touched upon, and which are in even poorer shape than has so far been outlined, but also roads and bridges. We can look at this more in another post.

A July start date? Based on historical German records and documents that’s a definite no.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Another aspect of the “staff study” that suspends disbelief – perhaps the biggest – is that Hitler would even consider attacking Spain. Many have commented on this thread that they simply don’t believe Hitler would have considered this. German Military Strategy and Spain in World War II (Burdick) brings this into focus. I won’t repeat the reasons why such a move would have been so difficult for Hitler to have ordered. These have been outlined numerous times and, let’s face it, are pretty obvious.

There was one reason that I considered that Hitler might just have thrown all those arguments out of the window and just ordered the operation anyway. I have kept in mind that in making this decision, Barbarossa would be postponed (which is another massive leap but again let’s suspend disbelief and just go with that too).

Hitler was not a man who liked to be said no to, and it could be argued that he was particularly aggrieved at Franco’s stance. Why? Well, German blood helped to install Franco in the first place and Franco, in refusing, was simply being ungrateful and unreasonable.

Okay…. but what could tip Hitler over the edge? Well in addition to the above, by late September, when Hitler was actually sold on the need for taking Gibraltar, there was also the following to consider:

- Hitler had seen the summer months of 1940 wasted following the armistice with France.
- Hitler’s dream of bringing the UK to heel were dashed
- Worse, in being dashed, the Luftwaffe had been severely mauled
- The Kriegsmarine had been severely mauled in Norway
- Mussolini had declared war and Hitler expected this announcement to be followed by a surprise attack on Corsica or Malta…. but instead, Mussolini’s forces had done..... nothing, other than a recent march over the border into Egypt, whereupon they set up camp.

So, added to Franco’s ungratefulness we have Hitler who is now in a very bad mood about how things are not panning out. As we enter the New Year and move into January and February, Franco is still stalling - despite making positive noises - and to add to the above:

- The Battle of Britain has been a bit of a disaster
- The Italian attack on Greece has failed – and indeed they are in danger of losing Albania!
- Part of the Italian fleet has been crippled at Taranto
- The Italians have suffered defeat after defeat and have been pushed back out of Egypt, out of Cyrenaica and back into Tripolitania.
- Hitler has already had to send the first of two divisions to Libya to stop a complete collapse.

Finally Hitler snaps, gets real and admits that Germany can’t possibly open up a second front with the USSR with all this going on. Incensed by everything going wrong, Hitler postpones Barbarossa, and the attack on Spain happens in the Spring of 1941.

Again, this is just a suggestion to make the scenario work and not my personal opinion of what was possible.

What the book makes clear are the tortured back and forwards between Franco and Hitler. I hadn’t realised that the Germans had not only selected the forces and commanders (this I knew from various war games), but that the assault forces had actually undergone specific training (at locations that best mirrored the target). There was also extensive intelligence, reconnaissance and survey work carried out, not only targeting Gibraltar, but also the state of Spain’s infrastructure and how difficult it was going to be to get down to Gibraltar – even in the non-hostile environment envisaged.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

So if I say Northern Europe as opposed to the Med, you're going to parse that in the most craven fashion just to gain brownie points? I have to list every country Mussolini would not need to be informed about? Good grief!

warspite1

Craven? Brownie points? What is wrong with you?

This has nothing to do with such childish antics. YOU said Hitler didn't have to tell Mussolini about things that didn't concern him. Well the Balkans DID concern Mussolini - and Hitler felt he didn't need to tell him about moves he was making in the Balkans.

So no, this had nothing to do with childish point scoring - and everything to do with the fact that you don't seem to understand where anywhere is and therefore, why Mussolini felt he should be consulted.

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ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If the enemy units stay on the hills, they would eventually be cut off from supplies, surrounded and wiped out. It also depends upon how wide the river valleys are as to whether the hills would have to be immediately cleared.

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Yes, the German army would be ground to a halt on ROAD GRADES.

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Even the modern American Army would be halted by ROAD GRADES as far as moving equipment and supplies on steep grades. It is not just the ROAD GRADES, it is also what the road surface is made from as well as the road bed itself - not to mention drainage systems to remove excess water. Ever see a tank or an armoured vehicle slipping on an icy road? They can easily slide off a road, lose a track, then block the road. Mud is also slippery whether it is black dirt or wet clay. Then even lose rock on a road surface can cause trouble.

Would you have a tank assigned to pull a loaded truck up a steep grade? How about a enemy rifleman shooting up the truck? Take out the radiator and the engine overheats and locks up. How about the brakes? Are there pull offs for the trucks to cool their brakes? How about tires and a flat tire? How about that enemy rifleman shooting out a tire causing a blowout? What happens to the truck on a turn when the outside steer tire blows out? Off the road it goes. If it is on a switchback, then it can then tumble down the hill, crossing the road and possibly meeting other vehicles. What happens to the load? Fuel would be trouble, ammo or explosives could be a blast, and personnel on a truck could be flung all over - which could ruin their whole day.

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BTW, how is your pharmaceutical supplies holding out?

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

I bow to your in depth knowledge of the geography of northwest Greece. Next time I have a choice between you and an SPI game map and a US military study, I'll be sure to kick the army professionals into the tall grass.

How about that map I posted? It sure seems to show the Axis marching all over Greece. Maybe you didn't read those professionals right.

warspite1

Maybe I did. I post this again......

The supply system of the Greek forces fighting in Albania was based on Salonika. The capture of the port would cut their supply lines and isolate them in their exposed positions.

.... or maybe I didn't.....

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

And we're back to not bothering to read my posts again. When I have suggested otherwise then sure, you can post that comment as relevant in responses to me. But once again. And for the hundredth time. And for the avoidance of doubt (I wish ) I have never said anything to the contrary.

Others did. You're not the only one I'm up against.

warspite1

In which case fine - answer THEIR posts and don't use this argument in response to my post and so disingenuously make it look like it's an argument I am trying to make. This is the second time you've done it and the second time I'm asking you not to.

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

And we're back to not bothering to read my posts again. When I have suggested otherwise then sure, you can post that comment as relevant in responses to me. But once again. And for the hundredth time. And for the avoidance of doubt (I wish ) I have never said anything to the contrary.

Others did. You're not the only one I'm up against.

warspite1

In which case fine - answer THEIR posts and don't use this argument in response to my post and so disingenuously make it look like it's an argument I am trying to make. This is the second time you've done it and the second time I'm asking you not to.

I will make that point whenever it is beneficial. If you were dealing with multiple posters....

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

I bow to your in depth knowledge of the geography of northwest Greece. Next time I have a choice between you and an SPI game map and a US military study, I'll be sure to kick the army professionals into the tall grass.

How about that map I posted? It sure seems to show the Axis marching all over Greece. Maybe you didn't read those professionals right.

warspite1

Maybe I did. I post this again......

The supply system of the Greek forces fighting in Albania was based on Salonika. The capture of the port would cut their supply lines and isolate them in their exposed positions.

.... or maybe I didn't.....

Until they established new supply lines via alternate paths - clearly possible from the map I posted. You've got to read between the lines. They didn't do that, because the German advances cut of those paths too.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

So if I say Northern Europe as opposed to the Med, you're going to parse that in the most craven fashion just to gain brownie points? I have to list every country Mussolini would not need to be informed about? Good grief!

warspite1

Craven? Brownie points? What is wrong with you?

This has nothing to do with such childish antics. YOU said Hitler didn't have to tell Mussolini about things that didn't concern him. Well the Balkans DID concern Mussolini - and Hitler felt he didn't need to tell him about moves he was making in the Balkans.

So no, this had nothing to do with childish point scoring - and everything to do with the fact that you don't seem to understand where anywhere is and therefore, why Mussolini felt he should be consulted.

Hitler had no reason to consult Mussolini about the Balkans. His forces alone were more than sufficient for the job. But getting to Gibraltar and Suez are another matter.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805