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RE: The question to ask about The Italians

 
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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 3:53:00 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

1.
You believe your scenario would have worked. You said you "know" this because it’s been "war gamed" and so that somehow proves it. Nothing else is required. This belief that a war game somehow provides that degree of proof of what would have been, was taken to the heights of absurdity when you confidently stated “And, all [the Germans] have to do is get to Madrid, whereupon Spain will surrender and her forces will dissolve”. Why did you state that? Well because it was in the rules of a war game…….


And, also, that so many countries did give in: Poland, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, Greece.

warspite1

Poland - NO
Denmark - NO, the King ordered no fighting for understandable reasons
Belgium - NO
France - NO
Yugoslavia - I'd need to check
Greece - Possibly, but then Athens was at the extreme south of the country anyway. There was only a few island left by the time the Germans reached the capital.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 811
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 3:56:26 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

It was not obviously wrong (see above). Even Norway was fully occupied if it did not officially surrender.

warspite1

Sorry, what are you talking about? We are talking about whether a country automatically surrenders because the capital has been captured. Norway's capital was captured right at the outset of the campaign in April, but the Norwegians fought until they almost ran out of country at Narvik and were deserted by their Allies in June. What point are you trying to make now?


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/23/2020 5:20:27 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 812
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 3:59:15 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You believe that writing one liners in which you essentially say "I am right" is sufficient. You don’t put any effort into supporting your case. You confidently state that “whatever force the Germans put into Spain… one rail line will be far more than sufficient to supply it” and “Now, how many trains can be pushed down a single line in a day? Surely at least 24….”. Unusually in this case you did actually attempt to provide some evidence in support of your “fact”. Unfortunately the data you provided referred to US railroads and not specific to Spain. The supporting data was therefore essentially useless as the conclusion you drew bears no relationship to reality.


The Spanish lines will need some repair, that's all. That wouldn't have been done in the case you were quoting, but it would have been during a conquest.

And, you repeat things over and over again. They don't deserve detailed answers at that point.

warspite1

Again, so disingenuous. You completely side step the fact that what you said the Spanish rail road could carry was total and utter garbage in terms of what it could actually carry. I am not talking a little bit I am talking night and day, chalk and cheese. But you can't even bring yourself to say, "yep, fair cop gov, I was completely wrong on that one" but instead change the point to hide yet another false 'fact'.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/23/2020 4:47:20 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 813
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:00:53 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

1.
You believe your scenario would have worked. You said you "know" this because it’s been "war gamed" and so that somehow proves it. Nothing else is required. This belief that a war game somehow provides that degree of proof of what would have been, was taken to the heights of absurdity when you confidently stated “And, all [the Germans] have to do is get to Madrid, whereupon Spain will surrender and her forces will dissolve”. Why did you state that? Well because it was in the rules of a war game…….


And, also, that so many countries did give in: Poland, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, Greece.

warspite1

Poland - NO
Denmark - NO, the King ordered no fighting for understandable reasons
Belgium - NO
France - NO
Yugoslavia - I'd need to check
Greece - Possibly, but then Athens was at the extreme south of the country anyway. There was only a few island left by the time the Germans reached the capital.


I am not sure what the "NO" means. That they didn't give in? I thought Denmark gave in as soon as they were invaded. And that France gave in as well (I thought the armistice the 22nd was France giving in).

Edit: Is the "NO" that they didn't give in just because their capital was occupied?

< Message edited by Orm -- 9/23/2020 4:03:00 PM >

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 814
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:01:25 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Actually, I was right. They didn't put the BEF back into France. A "Second BEF" was something else. And it turned around and got out almost as soon as it arrived.

warspite1

Erm..... Listen, I won't comment on this because I have no wish to embarrass you. You may want to think about deleting it - and in fairness to you, I will then delete this comment too


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/23/2020 5:21:55 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 815
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:03:36 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The example of Barbarossa showed that Mussolini could be enticed by German plans. German adoption of a Med Strategy would have impacted his decisions.
warspite1

You just keep repeating yourself without providing any evidence, any quotes, any directives, any diary entries any..... absolutely anything at all. You said it, so it must be right, yes?




< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/23/2020 5:22:56 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 816
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:04:43 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

1.
You believe your scenario would have worked. You said you "know" this because it’s been "war gamed" and so that somehow proves it. Nothing else is required. This belief that a war game somehow provides that degree of proof of what would have been, was taken to the heights of absurdity when you confidently stated “And, all [the Germans] have to do is get to Madrid, whereupon Spain will surrender and her forces will dissolve”. Why did you state that? Well because it was in the rules of a war game…….


And, also, that so many countries did give in: Poland, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, Greece.

warspite1

Poland - NO
Denmark - NO, the King ordered no fighting for understandable reasons
Belgium - NO
France - NO
Yugoslavia - I'd need to check
Greece - Possibly, but then Athens was at the extreme south of the country anyway. There was only a few island left by the time the Germans reached the capital.


Poland - Yes. Otherwise, where was the fighting in 1940 and beyond?
Denmark - Yes. What is the material difference?
Belgium - Yes.
France - Yes.
Yugoslavia - Yes - practically immediately!
Greece - Yes.

I suppose you're going to present some fine print that they didn't officially give in. Typical.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 817
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:07:37 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

1.
You believe your scenario would have worked. You said you "know" this because it’s been "war gamed" and so that somehow proves it. Nothing else is required. This belief that a war game somehow provides that degree of proof of what would have been, was taken to the heights of absurdity when you confidently stated “And, all [the Germans] have to do is get to Madrid, whereupon Spain will surrender and her forces will dissolve”. Why did you state that? Well because it was in the rules of a war game…….


And, also, that so many countries did give in: Poland, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, Greece.

warspite1

Poland - NO
Denmark - NO, the King ordered no fighting for understandable reasons
Belgium - NO
France - NO
Yugoslavia - I'd need to check
Greece - Possibly, but then Athens was at the extreme south of the country anyway. There was only a few island left by the time the Germans reached the capital.


I am not sure what the "NO" means. That they didn't give in? I thought Denmark gave in as soon as they were invaded. And that France gave in as well (I thought the armistice the 22nd was France giving in).

Edit: Is the "NO" that they didn't give in just because their capital was occupied?
warspite1

Because a rule in an SPI game says Spain surrender if Madrid is occupied, Curtis Lemay treats that as a fact. It was pointed out that that is not necessarily so. To this he answered that EVERY European country surrendered after the capital was occupied. It was pointed out that this wasn't the case - and examples were given, but Curtis Lemay believes he's always right.

Yes, I've said Denmark doesn't count because the King ordered no fighting to save lives that would uselessly be lost. The capital doesn't apply here.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 818
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:07:56 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline 		There is a craven effort to present Spain as an impossible obstacle. This is ridiculous. Her army was smaller than the BEF by itself, and much poorer quality. Logistics or terrain alone could not stop the Germans.

_____________________________

My TOAW web site:

Bob Cross's TOAW Site

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 819
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:13:17 PM   
warspite1


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Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

There is a craven effort to present Spain as an impossible obstacle. This is ridiculous. Her army was smaller than the BEF by itself, and much poorer quality. Logistics or terrain alone could not stop the Germans.
warspite1

You love that word craven don't you?

You can't have a sensible conversation can you? I have NOT said Spain is an impossible obstacle - Spain WILL be defeated. How many more times do I need to say this??????

All I am doing is tempering your glib 'blitz' line. And please, get it into your head, you are not arguing with me, you are not arguing with an author, you are arguing with the Germans - you know, the ones who would have to carry out this operation, surveyed the territory in detail, and wrote the comments I've quoted.

But again, you seem to think you know better than the German Army.....


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 820
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:18:37 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

1.
You believe your scenario would have worked. You said you "know" this because it’s been "war gamed" and so that somehow proves it. Nothing else is required. This belief that a war game somehow provides that degree of proof of what would have been, was taken to the heights of absurdity when you confidently stated “And, all [the Germans] have to do is get to Madrid, whereupon Spain will surrender and her forces will dissolve”. Why did you state that? Well because it was in the rules of a war game…….


And, also, that so many countries did give in: Poland, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, Greece.

warspite1

Poland - NO
Denmark - NO, the King ordered no fighting for understandable reasons
Belgium - NO
France - NO
Yugoslavia - I'd need to check
Greece - Possibly, but then Athens was at the extreme south of the country anyway. There was only a few island left by the time the Germans reached the capital.


I am not sure what the "NO" means. That they didn't give in? I thought Denmark gave in as soon as they were invaded. And that France gave in as well (I thought the armistice the 22nd was France giving in).

Edit: Is the "NO" that they didn't give in just because their capital was occupied?
warspite1

Because a rule in an SPI game says Spain surrender if Madrid is occupied, Curtis Lemay treats that as a fact. It was pointed out that that is not necessarily so. To this he answered that EVERY European country surrendered after the capital was occupied. It was pointed out that this wasn't the case - and examples were given, but Curtis Lemay believes he's always right.

Yes, I've said Denmark doesn't count because the King ordered no fighting to save lives that would uselessly be lost. The capital doesn't apply here.


Ah. Thank you for the explanation.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 821
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:21:44 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

1.
You believe your scenario would have worked. You said you "know" this because it’s been "war gamed" and so that somehow proves it. Nothing else is required. This belief that a war game somehow provides that degree of proof of what would have been, was taken to the heights of absurdity when you confidently stated “And, all [the Germans] have to do is get to Madrid, whereupon Spain will surrender and her forces will dissolve”. Why did you state that? Well because it was in the rules of a war game…….


And, also, that so many countries did give in: Poland, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Yugoslavia, Greece.

warspite1

Poland - NO
Denmark - NO, the King ordered no fighting for understandable reasons
Belgium - NO
France - NO
Yugoslavia - I'd need to check
Greece - Possibly, but then Athens was at the extreme south of the country anyway. There was only a few island left by the time the Germans reached the capital.


Poland - Yes. Otherwise, where was the fighting in 1940 and beyond?
Denmark - Yes. What is the material difference?
Belgium - Yes.
France - Yes.
Yugoslavia - Yes - practically immediately!
Greece - Yes.

I suppose you're going to present some fine print that they didn't officially give in. Typical.
warspite1

Wow. Just read what you are writing here..... No, Poland didn't give in. Like Norway she carried on until there was nothing (or in the case of Norway, practically nothing) left to defend and nothing left to defend with. You think the French quit as soon as Paris fell - that was the decider? Don't you know the French declared Paris an open city on the 12 June? You think Brussels was the decider for Belgium? The King controversially decided enough was enough - he wasn't prepared to see Belgium fight on like in WWI because he thought it a lost cause. It had nothing to do with the capital.

So re your comment about Poland. So the fighting has to last at least 3 months after the capital falls or it doesn't count!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Is that some special 'official' rule you've invented for World War II so you can then claim Norway never fought on after the fall of the capital because the fighting only lasted two months?

I will stop posting here because the last few posts in particular have not been good and this one is just simply bizarre. I genuinely don't want to embarrass you further and you are going down a path that is destroying your credibility:

- You continue to post answers to me, answering other peoples points I've not made and so making me out to be saying things I don't believe (Germans inability to fight in certain terrain being the most excruciating of examples).

- You make out I'm making statements that I have not only not made but I've actually clearly stated the very opposite numerous times (you are trying to say I'm stating Spain is an insurmountable obstacle)

- You rubbish a US military study about supply capability and, in response produce a map and start talking about a region that hasn't even been under discussion)

- You've made numerous factually inaccurate statements about WWII and rather than accept them you try and weasel out of being wrong through word games (you tried to make the point the British would not throw good after bad in France and so wouldn't do that in Spain - but incredibly are trying to make out that BEF II can't possibly be linked to that argument because its not the original BEF!)

- You factually state what the Germans can supply using the Spanish railroad (essentially anything they like because a train is a train is a train). When provided evidence (from the Germans themselves) that this is total nonsense, you ignore this and start waffling on about repairing bridges...

- Having been proven wrong about countries automatically surrendering when a capital is taken, you now seek to impose an arbitrary 3-month rule or it doesn't count!

- You ask me questions about points I've made because I've not explained myself despite the fact I've previously written at length about what you are saying I've not explained (the timing for the diplomatic manoeuvrings being just one example).




< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/24/2020 7:35:22 AM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 822
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:38:48 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If the Germans attacked Spain, there would be a very small frontage. Maqquis would be attacking their supply lines, including those in France.


Only initially, and that would occur under strategic surprise.

Wrong, it would continue. The Spanish Maquis were already in France and crossing the border. Later in the war they captured Irun.

quote:

Why would Italy even garrison Spain? They would get nothing from that! No glory, only dead bodies.


The whole point of taking Gibraltar was for Italy's benefit. Closing the eastern med is definitely in her interests. Allowing it to fall back to the British would be against those interests.

Please explain how capturing Gibraltar closes the eastern Med?

quote:

The Germans attacked along the river valleys because that is where the good roads are. The good roads are not going over Hills then through the Dales. Good roads are on the flat lands. The hills are better defensive terrain, often with trees, that is not good for tanks. Anti-tank guns are not needed against tanks, even turpentine will work.


All rubbish as I just posted. Those lines on the map represent the movements of FRONTS!


Fronts? You mean weather fronts? Or Soviet Army fronts? Tanks were destroyed with turpentine, that is not rubbish.

Remember, anything over a 7% grade is an obstacle. Those have to be taken into consideration.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 823
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:42:21 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

BTW: A question for Curtis Lemay and Zovs. In the SPI game, was there any special rules/requirements around the rail bridge at Irun?



Could you remind me where/what country Irun is in?

warspite1

Irun is in Spain. The reason I mentioned it is that Curtis Lemay believes that because his scenario has been "war gamed" it proves it would have worked.

Clearly to make a case like that, any game would need to be incredibly detailed. Which is why I assumed there must have been mention of Irun in the game. Given the lack of rail lines, the rail bridge at Irun was of massive importance to the Germans. Firstly, the Germans were very concerned about it as they weren't sure it was going to hold up due to the state of repair. But secondly, they were so worried about it being bombed that they provided numerous AA batteries and coastal batteries (they feared naval bombardment as the line is on the coast) to help with its defence.

Obviously Curtis Lemay is making the point that this is a very realistic game and so I am assuming the British player can bomb the line and the Royal Navy can shell the line? I am assuming the Germans need to keep 3 batteries of AA and an engineer unit at the bridge at all times? Presumably the attack on Spain can't start until the coastal batteries are in place?


Like in any campaign, bridges and rail lines will have to be repaired. Note that where rail bridges are down, truck routes can bypass them temporarily. Supplies come off before the bridge, trucked to the other side, and go back on after it. It changes how long it takes to get the supplies there, but not the amount of supplies that are ultimately delivered.


There may not be a highway bridge there either. Pontoon bridges are limited and vulnerable. Not every railroad bridge location can have a pontoon bridge there either. Even one mortar round can put holes into those pontoon bridges. Not to mention logs, rafts, and/or boats with containers of explosives attached.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 824
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:44:23 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Yes, its obvious to anyone that one would need both sides of the Straits to truly be able to traverse from the Med to the Atlantic without fear of mines, coastal batteries, aircraft etc. That is why - despite the unsubstantiated verbiage that Curtis Lemay comes out with, Hitler was going to order an armoured and motorised division into Spanish Morocco - and why there would always need to be a German garrison of some description there.


I still see a Vichy Spain as more probable than Vichy France was. If that's the case, the British would have to violate Spain to take that or the Canarys.


According to you, Germany has already violated Spain. The United Kingdom would welcome Spain into the Alliance and provide assistance. Even assistance from the United States not to mention Latin America could be forthcoming.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 825
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:53:08 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

There is a craven effort to present Spain as an impossible obstacle. This is ridiculous. Her army was smaller than the BEF by itself, and much poorer quality. Logistics or terrain alone could not stop the Germans.


Insulting people again?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 826
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 4:59:32 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Yes, its obvious to anyone that one would need both sides of the Straits to truly be able to traverse from the Med to the Atlantic without fear of mines, coastal batteries, aircraft etc. That is why - despite the unsubstantiated verbiage that Curtis Lemay comes out with, Hitler was going to order an armoured and motorised division into Spanish Morocco - and why there would always need to be a German garrison of some description there.


I still see a Vichy Spain as more probable than Vichy France was. If that's the case, the British would have to violate Spain to take that or the Canarys.


According to you, Germany has already violated Spain. The United Kingdom would welcome Spain into the Alliance and provide assistance. Even assistance from the United States not to mention Latin America could be forthcoming.
warspite1

EXACTLY!! Unlike Felix, where the British would have to fight for the Canaries, Spain and the UK are Allies from the moment the Germans stab the Spanish in the back. The regiments on the islands would be transported to the mainland by the RN too.

But apparently the British have to fight to land in the Canaries and will only do this after some sort of armistice type thing?!?!?!


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/23/2020 5:00:20 PM >

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 827
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 5:06:08 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I was talking about the map you originally showed. But the Wiki map serves just as well. It doesn't matter what is on that map. The Germans didn't travel to the Greco-Albanian border according to what you presented. But I am not going to waste any more time on this.

So I provide a military study that sets out the problems for the Greeks facing the Italians (if Salonika is taken). This is a study written by professionals in the US military.

You provide a game map and a map from Wiki that you say PROVES that Athens was a viable supply point for those Greek troops in the northeast.

I have no idea where you are coming from and I have nothing more to add on this, other than you've done yourself no favours whatsoever.


The Wiki map clearly showed the Germans moving across the spine of the Greek mountains. That means the Greek supply columns could have done so as well.

Here's another map from another source showing a little more detail. Clearly, the Italians dealt with the Greeks in the area your talking about. So the Germans had no need to go there.

Also, note the text at the top and how it describes the German armor getting into the rear of the British lines via "impassible" terrain!

The arrows on maps such as this should not be read as troops moving in single file. They are symbolic of the movement of fronts. All of Greece would have been fought over, including the hills.



warspite1

Once again I will ignore the nonsense about fighting on hills. I still haven't said the Germans couldn't do that and you still answer my posts as though I have. Boring.

But back to what we were talking about and...... once again, It appears we are talking about two entirely different things - or at least two completely different parts of Greece - or in this case Yugoslavia! Unbelievable. What the hell has the Germans entering the Monastir Gap from the north got to do with what we have been talking about????



I like how you post a picture of a book that has no name for the book not the author. That is acceptable, right? I am sure that an English or a History professor would accept something like that in a research paper.

I noticed that the book said something about "impassible" terrain. The French thought that the Ardennes was "impassible" to armoured units as well. But that is not in Greece which had fully mobilized, that was Yugoslavia which was barely into the process of mobilizing when it was attacked.

The movement depicted on the map also do not show the strengths of the units moving. I do believe that the strongest movements were along the coast where the flat land is while the movements in the hills were to protect the flanks. Movement is faster on flat land since any road grade above 7% is an obstacle. You do comprehend that the road grade above 7% is an obstacle?

The Greek government fled to Egypt where it was in exile, it did not surrender. The photocopy shows the withdrawl to Crete and also states that there were 14,000 Greek soldiers in Crete. If Greece had surrendered, why didn't those soldiers surrender?

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 9/23/2020 5:50:08 PM >

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 828
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 5:47:54 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

There is a craven effort to present Spain as an impossible obstacle. This is ridiculous. Her army was smaller than the BEF by itself, and much poorer quality. Logistics or terrain alone could not stop the Germans.


Insulting people again?
warspite1

Come on Ranger Joe, that's not an insult - we are all big enough and ugly enough to take some robust back and forth right?


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Post #: 829
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/23/2020 6:08:12 PM   
Zovs


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Status: offline 		Since we are at it, or just to throw fire into the gas...

Here is some screenshots from war games...

These are from Europa.

This one is from Second Front, but shows part of Spain and France, if you look closely you'll see the border of Vichy France and the Germans would have only 3 hexes to attack from. The dark brown is mountains, the lighter brown is rough, green is trees, etc.


This is showing the interior of Spain, it's an older Europa map, but the terrain generally sucks, the dashed lines are roads, the solid lines are standard gauged railroads (with a road) the filled in circles are bigger cities then the not filled in ones, and Madrid is a major city (two hexes).


Gibraltar, as you can see it's a fortress, while you can get four hexes to attack it from, fortress are tough to crack in Europa.


Lastly Greece, since it came up...


< Message edited by Zovs -- 9/23/2020 6:10:08 PM >

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Post #: 830
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/24/2020 7:00:23 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

These are from Europa.

This one is from Second Front, but shows part of Spain and France, if you look closely you'll see the border of Vichy France and the Germans would have only 3 hexes to attack from. The dark brown is mountains, the lighter brown is rough, green is trees, etc.


warspite1

Did you ever buy For Whom The Bell Tolls?


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/24/2020 7:01:58 AM >

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(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 831
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/24/2020 7:01:36 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Lastly Greece, since it came up...

warspite1

Balkan Front. My first Europa game - bought when I had mis-placed dreams that the series would one day be finished.......


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Post #: 832
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/24/2020 9:18:18 AM   
RFalvo69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Lastly Greece, since it came up...

warspite1

Balkan Front. My first Europa game - bought when I had mis-placed dreams that the series would one day be finished.......


I think that "Europa" will be finished before this discussion ends

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Post #: 833
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/24/2020 10:18:03 AM   
Zovs


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Post #: 834
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/24/2020 11:44:46 AM   
Zovs


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Status: offline 		Warspite,

My first Europa game was Fire in the East (GDW) followed (of course) by Scorched Earth and then the Urals. When I got Second Front (GR/D) I thought, man they are going to have to redo Fire in the East/Scorched Earth/Urals with new maps (HMS) which supposedly took place, but by that time I had given up after 20 years of 'waiting' for it to ever get done. Now it's owned by some other group and I seriously doubt we will ever see a finished product of Grand Europa...

...back to our regularly scheduled program...

In my ongoing CWIE2 game that I have been playing (in the background) to explore the Med First strategy, I am close to taking out France and will accept the Vichy surrender, leaving me with Spain and or England as an option (I started with the 1940 Campaign game). I have not spent any production on naval or amph transport as the Axis, I have spent it (wisely?) on submarines, rebuilding the luftwaffe and investing in panzers and infantry (plus a few mountain divisions and one air landing division). My plan once France falls-its already the 4th week of the 7th Cycle, game started 3rd week of the 5th cycle, so I have been fighting the Western Allies for 9 weeks, Norway just surrendered, but there are two CW 2-10 battle groups and a French 3-4 division near Narvik I need to get rid of and I am two hexes from Paris (in this game most minor countries and Poland surrender when their capital has been occupied, France, England and Russia are different)-is to save the game at that point and try to explore both options (attacking Spain or invading England).

Anyway

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Post #: 835
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/24/2020 12:04:18 PM   
RFalvo69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs
My first Europa game was Fire in the East (GDW) followed (of course) by Scorched Earth and then the Urals.


I never played Europa, but in the late '90s I had the opportunity to buy about 15 issues of The Europa Magazine (all new) for only $10 in a fire sale at my FLGS. It was an absorbing reading. The head honcho, Winston Hamilton, had a fun, very direct style. I especially liked the historical articles and how they were translated into the Europa system. I was about to buy a couple of games when real life threw a wrench in my plans. I never played an Europa game.

One day in the mid-2000s, out of curiosity, I checked what WHamilton was doing - only to discover that he died of an heart attack in 2000. I actually felt a sort of sadness, like losing a penpal friend. He really treated his customers with respect and warmth.

These days I'm scratching my unfulfilled "Europa experience" by playing Schwerpunkt's WWII Europe. The system is different, but I feel the same feeling.

quote:


In my ongoing CWIE2 game that I have been playing (in the background) to explore the Med First strategy


This is a game I'm constantly on the verge of buying. Would you suggest it?

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(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 836
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/24/2020 12:12:57 PM   
Zovs


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quote:

RFalvo69

This is a game I'm constantly on the verge of buying. Would you suggest it?


I would suggest picking up CWIE2 if your familiar with board war games, how they play and understand that this game has no AI, the artwork is mid 2000s and not as fancy as some of the other new games (like TOAW or GG WitE etc.). It has both game rules (SPI's version, which I helped to make sure they were SPI rules, and DG's 1999 version of the rules, plus all the KC/LA errata and other optional rules, plus the rule my good friend Steve (RIP) created for attrition, which makes the board game more like a computer war game with regards to units loosing attack/defense and movement points). It's a bit expense for a board rendition for a computer war game (much like how expensive MWIF is), but for me, an old board war gamer from the 70's and a computer war gamer since the 90s its well worth it.

Do you use Discord? I am part of Discord for a number of war games, it's easy to drop images and chat in real time. If you know what Discord is then let me know. I am on the Hex!, ASL Central, SPI, AH, VG, and VASSAL servers.


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Post #: 837
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/24/2020 12:21:27 PM   
Zovs


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quote:

RFalvo69

I never played Europa...


Back before all the shifting took place, i.e. when GDW was creating Europa, the fellows at GDW were the absolute nicest you could ever meet. I wrote a letter (back in those days, well it was before computers/email) to John Astell (the main creator of the Europa series) and he responded personally to me (AH and SPI were more business like, with SPI being more user friendly), but at GDW there was a fellow named Rick Gayler, there was a TEM called "Look Ma, no Ants" and it was a scenario for FitE/SE/Urals that did not use any RE (regimental equivalent units, for those not in the know, in Europa it's a divisional level game a very detailed level game, and 'ants' are all the non-divisional stuff, like artillery regiments, batteries, and engineer, ski, panzer, motorized, mountain regiments or battalions) so this scenario had not 'ants'. Well they were out of that issue and Rick Gayler gave me a used (but excellent edition) of that magazine, from his own personal collection, at no cost and with a signed piece of paper saying "Hey, Don, sorry we are out of that magazine to sell to you, but hey here is a free copy from my collection I hope you enjoy. Rick" I was totally blown away.

When GDW sold off the Europa and TGW series to GR/D they were still good and that is when Winston game into the picture, he was a module producing man and drove GRD and produced everything form the 80's to the 90s until his passing, he was a very nice man as well. With HMS they ripped off a lot of people (myself included) to produce the new Eastern Front game, it eventually came out but they 'lost my record of payment, $250' and I have not forgiven them nor purchased anything more from them. Now they are a new company and going in some other direction and I just don't care...

GDW was the best in my mind and so was GRD but life moves on.

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Post #: 838
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/24/2020 12:51:56 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline 		Amazing: I still remember when I had the opportunity to buy Second Front for 100,000 lire (about 50 Euro) back in 1998. Over and over I mulled if forking the money was worth it (I would have bought it as a "collector's item, since, at the time, I couldn't possibly have played it)...

...And now for an unpunched copy they ask 500 Euro I know sound investments offered by my bank that give you less...

https://boardgamegeek.com/geekmarket/product/2178364

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(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 839
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/24/2020 2:20:16 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
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Status: offline 		It took me forever to punch-out those counters, talk about a lot of counters...I was punching them out, while playing FitE/SE/Urals solo. I started with the 1941 CG and only got to March of 43, when the flood came...

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