warspite1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
quote:
ORIGINAL: warspite1
What have you got wrong? Listen. I am tired of doing all the work around here. You believe you have the knowledge to be able to talk about Vichy? Well prove it. Stop asking stupid questions and set out your ideas. Here's an idea! How about you do some work and set out the circumstances of how a 'Vichy' Spain comes about? Do you think you can manage that? This isn't rocket science. You have someone stating that a 'Vichy' Spain is not going to happen. But you say it will. So, make your case. And no, making your case isn't a series of pithy one-liners, it's a reasoned, well thought out article to explain what you believe would happen to make a 'Vichy' Spain scenario possible. You can't simply say "Well France had one so I think Spain will get one too so there". That is not a reasoned argument. That is just you saying "I'm right".
Clearly, a feature of Vichy France was no German forces interior to Vichy France. If that wasn't the point of Vichy France, then why would the Germans ever have agreed to it?
I've given clear reasons why Franco would want a deal with the Germans: The Allies aren't going to expel the Germans and Italians from Spain then reestablish a fascist state after the war. Franco has no real choice but to make a deal. And, since all the Germans really want is Gibraltar, why would he be so resistant?
warspite1
So you admit you have absolutely no idea what Vichy France was about, but simply think it would be really neat if the Spanish had one because France did  .
And incredibly you are still thinking in terms of Franco and Hitler making deals after what has just taken place???? Did you really ask why would Franco be so resistant? Did you really say that Franco would have no choice but to make a deal???? If that were true he would have caved in when Germany threatened him wouldn't he? Hitler has threatened Franco in no uncertain terms. Do you really think Franco has any reason to believe that Hitler doesn't follow through on his threats?
NOW, TRY AND PUT YOURSELF IN THEIR SHOES. TRY AND STOP THINKING LIKE A WAR GAMER AND TRY AND THINK OF REAL LIFE - YOU KNOW, REALITY.
a) We have decided that Hitler is going to be persuaded that a Med First is the way to go
b) Hitler is now fully on board and, in line with his character, when he wants something then he wants something, and he doesn't take kindly to be told he can't have it
c) Hitler doesn't have the benefit of hindsight, he doesn't know how easy or difficult it will be to take North Africa, he has no idea about taking Turkey and the Middle East, and he doesn't know what the USSR will do and he doesn't know how tough a nut Gibraltar will be. In short he wants Spain/Gibraltar done as quickly as possible. He's delayed Barbarossa once. He will not countenance a second delay.
d) He asks Franco through an intermediary in Spain
e) He asks Franco again though an intermediary in Berlin
f) He goes to see Franco in person to get this sorted
g) His foreign minister asks Franco. Franco makes warm noises and Hitler orders preparations to begin in earnest, including the training of the units that will undertake the assault. More intelligence operations are launched with Franco's assistance. Hitler is now really keen to get this done and thinks he has Franco's buy-in but.....
h) Mussolini is asked to speak to Franco
i) Canaris asks Franco
d) - i) is largely as per history
j) Exasperated, Hitler, desperate to avoid invading his nominal ally, but tired of the prevarication, threatens Franco to make him see reason. Hitler's had a really rubbish summer since the fall of France and time is starting to slip away. His threat to Franco is unambiguous....
k) Hitler, by now in the sort of mood he was in after someone gave him the news about the coup in Yugoslavia, and with any reticence or reluctance to attack Spain overtaken by sheer anger and frustration, gives the order to invade. He orders the bombing of Madrid and calls it Operation Retribution (he will have to come up with another name now for bombing Belgrade or maybe just call that Retribution II  )
l) The Germans begin the attack and take some losses, but generally start to gain ground. Spanish resistance can't last forever and Franco does what?
m) Franco now surrenders. Really? After standing up to Hitler - even when directly threatened, he now simply throws in the towel????
n) But let's go with that nonsense for a minute. You actually think Hitler, having been pushed down a path of invasion that has done his credibility with his axis and potentially axis countries no good whatsoever, that has cost him time and losses, is just going to roll his eyes and say yeah sure Franco, me ol' mucker, no problem?
o) Franco is strung up from the nearest lamp post and Hitler gets his own puppet to take over. Hitler's view of Spain and the Spanish is now set in stone and he will never forgive them.
And that's from Hitler's side.
p) All this assumes that Franco isn't overthrown as soon as he suggests a surrender.
q) Franco has refused all attempts at a strategy that will see Spain join with Germany. He has stared Hitler down and how many have done that to date?
r) Then, having done all that and gone to war with the treacherous, back-stabbing invaders, he changes his mind after just a few days or so of fighting?
s) He and everyone is Spain will now know that the Germans can't be trusted, if they make peace Spain will simply be another insignificant pawn on Germany's chessboard, but with the added bonus that, having joined the Axis, the country is now going to suffer from famine and it will have no oil.
t) You really expect Franco to surrender to the Germans after what Hitler has done to him and forced upon his country?
u) Having made such a decision Franco is a dead man walking - he will either be murdered by Spanish patriots within the government who have no wish to have anything to do with Germany or a surrender, or if he survives, he will be hung by Hitler.
v) In other words there would not be a cat in hell's chance of him even considering surrendering
And no, I'm not going to do your work for you. I told you to put something sensible together if you want to propose a scenario where a 'Vichy' Spain comes about. I'm not going to answer any of your questions as a means of you getting out of doing your homework. You want to make that case, then YOU make it and stop being lazy.
< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/29/2020 6:58:13 AM >
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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805  |
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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 
- but that was the gist of the comment). 
in Spain being supplied by road now..... My my, that's a lot of trucks the Germans have isn't it? 
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