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RE: The question to ask about The Italians

 
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RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:00:48 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Even more clueless than the previous posts. I love a robust debate, but your comments are almost troll like now, to the point of being so lame, so witless, there is no point debating. You simply can't believe what you are writing so I guess you are just doing this for a laugh.


Call me a troll and follow it up (in the same sentence) with a barrage of insults!

The Italians would get away easily for the reasons I listed.

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1021
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:05:30 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

I've asked you what you were talking about and you've come up with this. Despite the disingenuous answers above, yes you have said the Germans have until 1942 - "How long will it take? They have till 1942". And you also said "The Germans will be in a rush to get things done".

You seem to have confused yourself and give the usual one line answers in response - just minimal effort every time. Well I don't have the time to keep doing your job and trying to work out what you are talking about, when you can't even be bothered to be clear yourself.


Nothing unclear about that. Of course they want the campaign done as soon as it can be. But that doesn't imply any timeframe. The Pharaoh wants his pyramid as soon as possible - but it still takes 20 years to build.
warspite1

Of course you don't attempt a timeframe - that would mean putting some effort into what you say.


I want to repeat my Pyramid example, because it's so appropriate: "The Pharaoh wants his pyramid as soon as possible - but it still takes 20 years to build."

The Pharaoh doesn't know how long it will take to finish the pyramid. But it still gets built. Same here. I don't know how long the campaign will take. But it will still get done.


warspite1

Mmmmm kinda missed the point yet again haven't you Curtis Lemay. You see timescales are actually kind of important in a situation like this. But why set timescales? I mean seriously, why put ANY effort in at all? You haven't so far so I must confess, you didn't disappoint.




What timescale did the Germans have for Poland or France? How did it work out? The only timescale necessary is that it will be done before 1942. Probably long before that, of course, but that's the only date that really matters.

And none of that was the point (which you've lost). The point was that I never gave any timescale, contrary to your claims.

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Post #: 1022
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:06:59 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

And funnily enough, no apology from you after this crass, dishonest response.....


You've got to be kidding!! Every post from you is filled with venom. You're a Troll with a capitol "T".

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Post #: 1023
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:09:33 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Romania and Bulgaria are exactly to the point. You claim that Spain wouldn't flip to the Axis side because of the casualties they would take in an invasion. Yet that's exactly what Romania and Bulgaria did, under the same circumstances (conquest).

warspite1

Again, I don't understand the simplistic nature of your responses. I know less about Bulgaria, but know something of Romania in WWII. So the only reason you think the Romanians switched to the Soviets side, almost four years after joining the Axis, was because under the Germans they took heavy casualties? I mean.... I don't know where to even start with this.

But you think Spain (1940) and Romania (1940-1944) are operating "under the same circumstances"? Why? Please provide a paragraph just setting out how the situations are the same.


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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 1024
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:15:06 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I've told you my thoughts on Vichy: The rationale for the French was to preserve an enclave in France that wasn't German occupied. And I'll ask you again: Why would the Germans ever agree to stay out of Vichy if that wasn't the French purpose of Vichy? And I'm going to keep rubbing your nose in that till you answer, because there isn't any answer, except that that was the purpose of Vichy!!!

warspite1

And still you won't do the simplest of things. This is your scenario, this is your case to make. All I've asked you to do on a number of occasions now is to provide an outline, a timeline, of how a 'Vichy' Spain comes about. Show us who you think instigates the idea? What does it seek to achieve? Why is it accepted by both sides?

Truly, if your explanation for the reasoning behind Vichy France and it's creation is "The rationale for the French was to preserve an enclave in France that wasn't German occupied" then I suggest you have much reading to do on the subject before you can even begin to talk about 'Vichy' Spain.

As for the question - apologies I don't even recall you asking me the question. You may delight in "rubbing my nose in it" but, for the avoidance of doubt, I am always more than happy to answer any question. Before doing so however, you would need to let me know what it means please. I don't really understand why you are asking why the Germans would agree to stay out of Vichy. Are you sure this is not a question for someone else? Ranger Joe perhaps? I genuinely can't remember the background to this or where it comes from at all.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/30/2020 7:51:18 PM >


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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 1025
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:15:39 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Vichy France (now an Axis ally)

warspite1

I think I've been asking the wrong question. The correct question should have been:

Is there anything that you DO actually understand about World War II????


"Philippe Pétain was charged with treason in July 1945. He was convicted and sentenced to death by firing squad, but Charles de Gaulle commuted the sentence to life imprisonment. "

Apparently the Allies didn't agree with you. Vichy officials were considered "collaborators".

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Post #: 1026
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:21:56 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

What constitutes a favorable deal before invasion and what constitutes one after conquest are two different things.

warspite1

... is of course very true. Now. How does Franco look to his government and to the country if 7 days previously he could have got deal x and now - purely to save his own skin* at the expense and monumental suffering of Spain itself - he begs for deal Z. Remember in doing this it wasn't as though he didn't know what was going to happen. Franco would be just about the most hated, the most stupid and the most cowardly person on planet Earth at this point.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Once Spain is conquered, Franco would see a return to power as a very favorable deal.

warspite1

* You still persist in the quaint notion that Franco survives this. I just don't get it.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/1/2020 4:22:42 AM >


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Post #: 1027
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:25:49 PM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So the very first question we need to have a consensus on is when, realistically, Hitler would have decided a Med strategy is the way to go.

My view is that such a strategy should not be considered until June - and this would have been after the armistice is signed. I say this for three main reasons:

1. Going for any strategy - be it a Med strategy or a Soviet strategy or a Sea Lion strategy - is totally superfluous to Hitler's thinking until such time as Poland and France are defeated. After all, who - least of all Hitler - is going to imagine how the war will pan out in September 1939.

2. Only once Hitler knows Mussolini has joined the war, does the Med even come onto anyone's radar.

3. During May and June 1940 Hitler has his hands full trying to beat France, Britain and their Allies. To suggest that at this time Hitler is going to be diverted from this major operation (Case Yellow) to start thinking earnestly about Spain, and having in-depth conversations with Mussolini and Franco, while France has yet to be resolved, just seems highly unlikely.


Why is this important and the place to start? Well for two reasons:

a) it governs how quickly, after France, an attack on Spain would take place - and that is really important in terms of the knock-on effect elsewhere, the preparedness of the various belligerents etc

b) it also governs what Hitler may or may not have ordered during his time of indecision after France surrenders.

So that's my thoughts, but what do others think? So when, realistically, do we think Hitler would have had his light-bulb moment? To be clear this is simply when Hitler decides that a Med First solution is to be planned and not when the planning is finalised - that comes next....

Perhaps before starting your group discussion to resolve those questions, it may be better to create a new thread lest you find yourself in this current one fighting a two front war that we know from history rarely turns out well. If not, my money is still on 1000+ pages.

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Post #: 1028
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:27:09 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
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From: Houston, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So the very first question we need to have a consensus on is when, realistically, Hitler would have decided a Med strategy is the way to go.

My view is that such a strategy should not be considered until June - and this would have been after the armistice is signed. I say this for three main reasons:

1. Going for any strategy - be it a Med strategy or a Soviet strategy or a Sea Lion strategy - is totally superfluous to Hitler's thinking until such time as Poland and France are defeated. After all, who - least of all Hitler - is going to imagine how the war will pan out in September 1939.

2. Only once Hitler knows Mussolini has joined the war, does the Med even come onto anyone's radar.

3. During May and June 1940 Hitler has his hands full trying to beat France, Britain and their Allies. To suggest that at this time Hitler is going to be diverted from this major operation (Case Yellow) to start thinking earnestly about Spain, and having in-depth conversations with Mussolini and Franco, while France has yet to be resolved, just seems highly unlikely.


Why is this important and the place to start? Well for two reasons:

a) it governs how quickly, after France, an attack on Spain would take place - and that is really important in terms of the knock-on effect elsewhere, the preparedness of the various belligerents etc


Anyone could have concluded that a cross-channel invasion was a fool's errand. Once that point is reached, the obvious next option to get to the British is Egypt. That adds other advantages as well, regarding Middle Eastern oil. They could have come to that conclusion well in advance. And Italy's involvement can easily be anticipated and prepared for. That's what plans are for: to handle contingencies.

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Post #: 1029
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:28:20 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Even more clueless than the previous posts. I love a robust debate, but your comments are almost troll like now, to the point of being so lame, so witless, there is no point debating. You simply can't believe what you are writing so I guess you are just doing this for a laugh.


Call me a troll and follow it up (in the same sentence) with a barrage of insults!

The Italians would get away easily for the reasons I listed.
warspite1

I have given you the charge sheet re some of the disingenuous ways you've treated my posts and treated me. I am not going to repeat it. But I put the T word in because, despite perfectly polite requests for you to explain your scenario, and make your case, you simply refuse - and seem to delight in not doing so. Not helpful or friendly.

I've no idea what the Italians have to do with it.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/30/2020 6:24:27 PM >


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Post #: 1030
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:34:07 PM   
Zorch

 

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Sadly, I feel this is appropriate.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1031
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:43:00 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

What timescale did the Germans have for Poland or France? How did it work out? The only timescale necessary is that it will be done before 1942. Probably long before that, of course, but that's the only date that really matters.

And none of that was the point (which you've lost). The point was that I never gave any timescale, contrary to your claims.
warspite1

And yet again you don't seem to be able to make the distinction between different scenarios. It's like a one size fits all deal. The timescale for Poland was asap as they needed to get troops to the western front (in case Gamelin ever grew a set).

The timescale in France was asap because the German economy wasn't equipped for a long war. But just beating France was not something that many on the German general staff even thought possible. For the continuation of the war Germany had to beat France.

But for your scenario a timescale is very much required and is absolutely vital. The timescale here you say is anytime before 1942. That is just such a mind-blowingly fatuous comment. The Germans are invading the Soviets in 1942 - and that is non-negotiable for Hitler, before that they are invading Turkey, the Middle East, possibly France (depending on the Syrian response), they are invading Egypt, they are assisting the Italians in Libya, and possibly Greece and Yugoslavia - all in 1941. The Germans don't know what the Soviets will do either and so have to guard against any action in the east. NO the Germans haven't got until 1942, and to airily state they do is not clever and shows a complete lack of understanding of war and warfare - not to mention economics.


Have a look at the point in bold and tell me where I said you have provided a timescale? I've been asking you to provide one repeatedly (as you need one for your scenario). In fact I see you've cut off most of that chain. What I said was:

"Of course you don't attempt a timeframe - that would mean putting some effort into what you say".

So where does that make sense with "The point was that I never gave any timescale, contrary to my claims"?


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/1/2020 7:20:50 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 1032
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:46:21 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So the very first question we need to have a consensus on is when, realistically, Hitler would have decided a Med strategy is the way to go.

My view is that such a strategy should not be considered until June - and this would have been after the armistice is signed. I say this for three main reasons:

1. Going for any strategy - be it a Med strategy or a Soviet strategy or a Sea Lion strategy - is totally superfluous to Hitler's thinking until such time as Poland and France are defeated. After all, who - least of all Hitler - is going to imagine how the war will pan out in September 1939.

2. Only once Hitler knows Mussolini has joined the war, does the Med even come onto anyone's radar.

3. During May and June 1940 Hitler has his hands full trying to beat France, Britain and their Allies. To suggest that at this time Hitler is going to be diverted from this major operation (Case Yellow) to start thinking earnestly about Spain, and having in-depth conversations with Mussolini and Franco, while France has yet to be resolved, just seems highly unlikely.


Why is this important and the place to start? Well for two reasons:

a) it governs how quickly, after France, an attack on Spain would take place - and that is really important in terms of the knock-on effect elsewhere, the preparedness of the various belligerents etc


Anyone could have concluded that a cross-channel invasion was a fool's errand. Once that point is reached, the obvious next option to get to the British is Egypt. That adds other advantages as well, regarding Middle Eastern oil. They could have come to that conclusion well in advance. And Italy's involvement can easily be anticipated and prepared for. That's what plans are for: to handle contingencies.
warspite1

Well, history suggests otherwise doesn't it? For if anyone could, then what was Sea Lion all about? Quite clearly, anyone didn't did they?

Middle Eastern oil wasn't going to be available anytime soon - even after capture of the destroyed wells and facilities

Italy's involvement was likely, but given Mussolini's up and down mood swings, who knew when that would be. And yet you are suggesting that plans are made and plans progressed for operations despite not even knowing when or if Italy was coming in.

I agree that plans are prepared for contingencies. But as said contingencies are rarely developed into detailed plans - and certainly not at a time when the leadership of Germany and the army have got their minds fully concentrated elsewhere.



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/1/2020 7:22:17 AM >


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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 1033
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 4:54:03 PM   
warspite1


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Joined: 2/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The comment re Piteas and UP844 was about as childish as it gets. No, you don't DEFER to these gentlemen because of their nationality, but you can seek to engage with them to understand more about their views which, given their nationality MAY prove of interest to the debate. But apparently that thought never occurred to you - but then it wouldn't would it? You are Curtis Lemay and you are always right and neither believed what you were saying to be correct.


You seem to think I should defer to anyone Spanish about Spain and anyone Italian about Italy.

warspite1

Which part of the English language do you not understand?????? I've said exactly the opposite and in posting that you simply make yourself look cheap. Not for the first time your debating style is dishonest and you seek to accuse me of saying things I haven't said. Apology please.


warspite1

And funnily enough, no apology from you after this crass, dishonest response.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

You've got to be kidding!! Every post from you is filled with venom. You're a Troll with a capitol "T".

warspite1

Every post? Are we feeling a little melodramatic today?

It's not venom. Frustration, mixed in with disappointment that you accuse me of things and yet are more than happy to debate in such a dishonest way. Look again at the example above. You specifically accuse me of stating the very opposite of what I said. But you think you are the paragon of virtue??

But as said, I've set out my grievances previously, you ignored them then, and I can't be bothered to set them out again because you will simply ignore them again.

Frankly I am more interested in trying to have an honest, sensible debate on an interesting counterfactual.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/1/2020 6:07:05 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 1034
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 5:04:06 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Vichy France (now an Axis ally)

warspite1

I think I've been asking the wrong question. The correct question should have been:

Is there anything that you DO actually understand about World War II????


"Philippe Pétain was charged with treason in July 1945. He was convicted and sentenced to death by firing squad, but Charles de Gaulle commuted the sentence to life imprisonment. "

Apparently the Allies didn't agree with you. Vichy officials were considered "collaborators".
warspite1

Again, it's just like watching a 1960's cowboy film. Don't tell me, the bad guys wear black hats and the good guys wear white hats...... Real life is more complicated than that.

The reasons for Vichy officials being treated the way they were were complex. France was humiliated in the eyes of the world in June 1940 - but to proud Frenchmen, this humiliation was almost unbearable because it was compounded by an armistice and a Vichy Government, rather than France fighting on from French North Africa. Vichy was a stain that had to be erased. And how best do you do that if not executing the "traitors". The complexity stems, not least, from the argument over whether the Vichy government was actually properly appointed from a legal point of view. Certainly the appointment of Petain was legal. But other areas of action are less certain.

But no, collaboration was not the same as being a German ally. Get real.

Even today, the way Vichy is viewed is not unanimous. Some see Petain as an honourable man doing the best for his country in a rubbish situation, to preserve the country and its empire as much as possible, while getting the best deal for its population, in what was likely to become a German dominated Europe post war. Others see the Vichy Government as a bunch of right wingers, little different from the Germans, who would have loved nothing more than being given Germany's blessing to join the Axis. The truth? It's probably somewhere between the two.

Vichy France was NOT an Axis ally. That is ridiculous. You need to start reading more.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/30/2020 7:43:21 PM >


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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 1035
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 5:07:22 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Sadly, I feel this is appropriate.



warspite1

I love World War II history and love to debate it. If people see what I write and believe me to be an idiot because of it, then I'll take it on the chin - and who knows, they actually may be right.


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 1036
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 5:37:32 PM   
Piteas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


Tripoli to Tobruk: 1257 km (and that's bypassing the Jabal Akhdar - using it totals 1450km).
Tripoli to El Alamein: 1784 km.
San Sebastian to Gibraltar: 1130 km - shorter that any route above. And nothing in Spain is further than that.







The spanish territory is very different from Libya.
On this map, there are three ways for the Germans. In the three ones they would have to cross several wide rivers, at least two mountain ranges and a lot of enemy cities in difficult flanking or siege areas. Dozens of small Tobruks.
Of course, they could win. But it would not be a walk along the Libyan coast.

< Message edited by Piteas -- 9/30/2020 5:39:09 PM >

(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 1037
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 5:40:18 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Sadly, I feel this is appropriate.



warspite1

I love World War II history and love to debate it. If people see what I write and believe me to be an idiot because of it, then I'll take it on the chin - and who knows, they actually may be right.


I'm not calling you an idiot. I'm saying you seem to be a little bent out of shape over Curtis' responses (or non-responses).
Peace, and lower blood pressure to you

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1038
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 9/30/2020 8:01:35 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
You're NOT calling me an idiot? Well that's a first

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/1/2020 7:24:39 AM >


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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 1039
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/1/2020 1:57:30 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Whoops Curtis Lemay's credibility has finally fallen through the floor..... You consistently credit me with saying things I haven't said. You are thoroughly dishonest.

Where did you get that rail repair in impossible in Spain. No weasel words, or ignoring the post, please show me where I've said rail repair is impossible.


Where did I say that you did? I posted a rhetorical question. Because you certainly were implying it. But, now it's clear, the Germans can repair the rail lines.

quote:

Again you use the most ridiculous of examples - North Africa - to try and make your case in Spain.


Not only is it not a ridiculous example, it's the stake in the heart for the Spanish campaign. Rail repair isn't even necessary. North Africa proves it.

quote:

Minimum needs? For an entire army group.... erm..... To be fair, you obviously know more than the US Military and so I guess its only to be expected you know more than the logistics and supply guys that took the German army to the gates of Moscow and the Caucasus.


No. I only need to know as much as the logistic guys that took the German army to Tobruk and El Alamein.

Tripoli to Tobruk: 1257 km (and that's bypassing the Jabal Akhdar - using it totals 1450km).
Tripoli to El Alamein: 1784 km.
San Sebastian to Gibraltar: 1130 km - shorter that any route above. And nothing in Spain is further than that.












I don't know where you get those driving times from. The military travels slow unless it is returning from an FTX - especially for the Class VI items. But in Spain you have to slow down for those hills and mountains plus the tight curves - remember that any grade above 7% is an obstacle. The drivers and crew need rest, sustenance, plus the vehicles need fuel and maintenance. A lot of vehicles will break down, what happens with those? You can't leave them alone. Those convoys need escorts, so those members and vehicles also need to be taken care of.

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 1040
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/1/2020 2:09:53 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So the very first question we need to have a consensus on is when, realistically, Hitler would have decided a Med strategy is the way to go.

My view is that such a strategy should not be considered until June - and this would have been after the armistice is signed. I say this for three main reasons:

1. Going for any strategy - be it a Med strategy or a Soviet strategy or a Sea Lion strategy - is totally superfluous to Hitler's thinking until such time as Poland and France are defeated. After all, who - least of all Hitler - is going to imagine how the war will pan out in September 1939.

2. Only once Hitler knows Mussolini has joined the war, does the Med even come onto anyone's radar.

3. During May and June 1940 Hitler has his hands full trying to beat France, Britain and their Allies. To suggest that at this time Hitler is going to be diverted from this major operation (Case Yellow) to start thinking earnestly about Spain, and having in-depth conversations with Mussolini and Franco, while France has yet to be resolved, just seems highly unlikely.


Why is this important and the place to start? Well for two reasons:

a) it governs how quickly, after France, an attack on Spain would take place - and that is really important in terms of the knock-on effect elsewhere, the preparedness of the various belligerents etc


Anyone could have concluded that a cross-channel invasion was a fool's errand. Once that point is reached, the obvious next option to get to the British is Egypt. That adds other advantages as well, regarding Middle Eastern oil. They could have come to that conclusion well in advance. And Italy's involvement can easily be anticipated and prepared for. That's what plans are for: to handle contingencies.


If the BEF is still in France, it would not be a fool's errand - unless you are assigned to do it.

If the BEF has been destroyed, it would not be a fool's errand - unless you are assigned to do it.

If the BEF was evacuated without its equipment, it would not be a fool's errand - unless you are assigned to do it.

Nazi Germany can't have detailed plans with Italy unless and until Nazi Germany knows what Italy is willing to do and with what. Since it would be the Italian fleet doing the lifting of supplies and units to North Afrika, other than what flies across the sea, Nazi Germany is dependent on Italy. If you would actually consider that, Italy should come up with plans (not Nazi Germany) then ask Nazi Germany if Nazi Germany would be willing to help and what they are willing to lend.

Nazi Germany would have been better off planning and implementing a cross channel attack even before France fell. If the Armme would have continued to attack on land with the Luftwaffe concentrating on any shipping evacuating the BEF, the losses could have been staggering to the British. It it could have been done before the BEF was even evacuated, there was little in the United Kingdom that could quickly oppose it on land. One the Nazi Germans cross the channel and have troops plus an airfield, the the British radar has little to no warning of raids - especially since some of the radar stations would be captured and/or destroyed.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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(in reply to Curtis Lemay)
Post #: 1041
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/1/2020 4:31:30 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Whoops Curtis Lemay's credibility has finally fallen through the floor..... You consistently credit me with saying things I haven't said. You are thoroughly dishonest.

Where did you get that rail repair in impossible in Spain. No weasel words, or ignoring the post, please show me where I've said rail repair is impossible.


Where did I say that you did? I posted a rhetorical question. Because you certainly were implying it. But, now it's clear, the Germans can repair the rail lines.

quote:

Again you use the most ridiculous of examples - North Africa - to try and make your case in Spain.


Not only is it not a ridiculous example, it's the stake in the heart for the Spanish campaign. Rail repair isn't even necessary. North Africa proves it.

quote:

Minimum needs? For an entire army group.... erm..... To be fair, you obviously know more than the US Military and so I guess its only to be expected you know more than the logistics and supply guys that took the German army to the gates of Moscow and the Caucasus.


No. I only need to know as much as the logistic guys that took the German army to Tobruk and El Alamein.

Tripoli to Tobruk: 1257 km (and that's bypassing the Jabal Akhdar - using it totals 1450km).
Tripoli to El Alamein: 1784 km.
San Sebastian to Gibraltar: 1130 km - shorter that any route above. And nothing in Spain is further than that.












I don't know where you get those driving times from.
warspite1

These are current maps with current roads. The times need to be taken with a pinch of salt because I’m pretty sure the Spanish have upgraded their road network and added motorways since 1940 ....... Sorry but its yet another use of Wiki to try and ‘prove’ something it doesn’t. And remember, as stated in previous posts, the problem isn’t necessarily one of time - there are so many variables that Lemay is simply ignoring (see posts 1017,1018 and 1037).

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/1/2020 7:25:45 AM >


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(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 1042
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/1/2020 4:56:18 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Whoops Curtis Lemay's credibility has finally fallen through the floor..... You consistently credit me with saying things I haven't said. You are thoroughly dishonest.

Where did you get that rail repair in impossible in Spain. No weasel words, or ignoring the post, please show me where I've said rail repair is impossible.


Where did I say that you did? I posted a rhetorical question. Because you certainly were implying it. But, now it's clear, the Germans can repair the rail lines.

quote:

Again you use the most ridiculous of examples - North Africa - to try and make your case in Spain.


Not only is it not a ridiculous example, it's the stake in the heart for the Spanish campaign. Rail repair isn't even necessary. North Africa proves it.

quote:

Minimum needs? For an entire army group.... erm..... To be fair, you obviously know more than the US Military and so I guess its only to be expected you know more than the logistics and supply guys that took the German army to the gates of Moscow and the Caucasus.


No. I only need to know as much as the logistic guys that took the German army to Tobruk and El Alamein.

Tripoli to Tobruk: 1257 km (and that's bypassing the Jabal Akhdar - using it totals 1450km).
Tripoli to El Alamein: 1784 km.
San Sebastian to Gibraltar: 1130 km - shorter that any route above. And nothing in Spain is further than that.












I don't know where you get those driving times from.
warspite1

These are current maps with current roads. The times need to be taken with a pinch of salt because I’m pretty sure the Spanish have upgraded their road network and added motorways since 1940....... Sorry but its yet another use of Wiki to try and ‘prove’ something it doesn’t. And remember, as stated in previous posts, the problem isn’t necessarily one of time - there are so many variables that Lemay is simply ignoring (see posts 1017,1018 and 1037).


If these are current roads, then they may not have even existed in 1940. Think of how many countries copied the Nazi German controlled-access highway system.

Not to mention that Nazi German tanks driving on them would tear up the road surface.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1043
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/1/2020 5:47:28 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Whoops Curtis Lemay's credibility has finally fallen through the floor..... You consistently credit me with saying things I haven't said. You are thoroughly dishonest.

Where did you get that rail repair in impossible in Spain. No weasel words, or ignoring the post, please show me where I've said rail repair is impossible.


Where did I say that you did? I posted a rhetorical question. Because you certainly were implying it. But, now it's clear, the Germans can repair the rail lines.

quote:

Again you use the most ridiculous of examples - North Africa - to try and make your case in Spain.


Not only is it not a ridiculous example, it's the stake in the heart for the Spanish campaign. Rail repair isn't even necessary. North Africa proves it.

quote:

Minimum needs? For an entire army group.... erm..... To be fair, you obviously know more than the US Military and so I guess its only to be expected you know more than the logistics and supply guys that took the German army to the gates of Moscow and the Caucasus.


No. I only need to know as much as the logistic guys that took the German army to Tobruk and El Alamein.

Tripoli to Tobruk: 1257 km (and that's bypassing the Jabal Akhdar - using it totals 1450km).
Tripoli to El Alamein: 1784 km.
San Sebastian to Gibraltar: 1130 km - shorter that any route above. And nothing in Spain is further than that.





I don't know where you get those driving times from.
warspite1

These are current maps with current roads. The times need to be taken with a pinch of salt because I’m pretty sure the Spanish have upgraded their road network and added motorways since 1940....... Sorry but its yet another use of Wiki to try and ‘prove’ something it doesn’t. And remember, as stated in previous posts, the problem isn’t necessarily one of time - there are so many variables that Lemay is simply ignoring (see posts 1017,1018 and 1037).


If these are current roads, then they may not have even existed in 1940.

warspite1

I don't know what route parameters Lemay has chosen, but he may have used the route I mentioned in previous posts, and which were taken from the German plans - Irun-Burgos-Salamanca-Sevilla - the route certainly looks very similar.

If that is the case then yes, we can be certain there was some sort of road in 1940 - because the Germans decided that would be the best route for the troops that would have to march along all 1,200km of it......

However, the point I was making was that the quality of the road back then was not what its going to be today. But regardless, the time expended, whilst an issue, is really not anywhere near the issue - there were far more variables for the Germans to worry about that have been mentioned in the previous posts but that Lemay has ignored.



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/1/2020 7:26:45 AM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 1044
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/1/2020 6:12:41 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Anyone have any thoughts on posts 996 and 1001?

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 10/1/2020 6:18:52 AM >


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1045
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/1/2020 9:33:04 AM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Sadly, I feel this is appropriate.



warspite1

I love World War II history and love to debate it. If people see what I write and believe me to be an idiot because of it, then I'll take it on the chin - and who knows, they actually may be right.


I guess that the point, for anyone involved here, is: "What is your endgame on this thread?" If the answer is "To have someone say 'You know? I thought about what you wrote and I think that you are actually right!'" then I have a leaning tower for sale.

_____________________________

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1046
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/1/2020 10:18:46 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Sadly, I feel this is appropriate.



warspite1

I love World War II history and love to debate it. If people see what I write and believe me to be an idiot because of it, then I'll take it on the chin - and who knows, they actually may be right.


I guess that the point, for anyone involved here, is: "What is your endgame on this thread?" If the answer is "To have someone say 'You know? I thought about what you wrote and I think that you are actually right!'" then I have a leaning tower for sale.


That leaning tower, is that they one where they did not properly check the stability of the ground first? If so, I do not want it. Especially if it is like that bridge for sale in Brooklyn.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 1047
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/1/2020 12:34:01 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

As indicated in the posts yesterday, I think this thread has long since passed it's usefulness. There doesn't appear to be a consensus on any single point. I mean that shouldn't be possible if everyone comes at this with an open mind.

This is Lemay's counterfactual scenario and one he is proposing would have worked for Germany, it is his case to make. But sadly it appears he has no interest in doing that (or at least not in a constructive way).

He believes a series of (apparently concise) one line answers without the need for much supporting 'evidence' is all that is required to confirm that he is right - and who knows? Perhaps he is. But the little 'evidence' he has provided to support his view, is made up of a war game manual, a war game rule book, a war game map, a couple of irrelevant Wiki paragraphs and a WWII Atlas. I believe these should have the appropriate weight placed on them i.e. not much.

Just as disappointing - and hugely surprising I must say - is that he actually has shown a remarkable lack of knowledge about World War II, and I have simply lost count of the number of factual inaccuracies he's offered up. Suggesting Vichy was an Axis ally was probably the last straw for me. We all make mistakes now and again, but such a lack of knowledge about so many aspects of WWII doesn't give confidence when discussing counterfactuals - I mean one needs to know something of the actual history right?

So if anyone is interested I will jot down a Med First counterfactual and would welcome thoughts and insights so that we can come to a consensus on what we think may have been possible (recognising that our knowledge is necessarily limited (we are not historians!) but that, as war gamers with a keen interest in what we play, many of us will have at least some knowledge to impart).

I envisaged that this would have been how the thread would have panned out originally but despite repeated requests for a case to be made, its clearly not going to happen. I'll make a start on it and see what, if any, interest it attracts.

The essentials will be:

- Hitler is persuaded to employ a Mediterranean-First strategy to weaken the British (or ideally get them to surrender) before an assault on the Soviet Union is made in the Summer of 1942.

- This plan will involve the taking of Gibraltar and Hitler will be so persuaded by the plan, that he will - as a last resort - even be prepared to invade Spain

- A second prong of this scenario is a declaration of war against Turkey (if she can't be brought into the Axis camp) and thus a pincer move to take Egypt from the west and north.

- Moving Hitler's thinking in this way is a pretty big alteration to reality so I think we need to sensible in terms of trying to ensure we keep other key players in the scenario acting in line with their character. This doesn't mean everyone is hidebound to do what they did in WWII obviously - everyone can react to changing circumstance - but we just need to be sensible.

Hopefully this will be a bit of fun and I would like to think that there are enough war gamers in our community with WWII knowledge that would be happy to join in and give their 2 cents, or GBP 0.02 or Euro 0.02


I think that a Med first strategy would only come about if:

1) The Allies do not agree to peace according to terms acceptable to Adolf Hitler while:
a) Italy has entered the war on the Nazi German side;
b) Nazi Germany and Italy have failed to bring the United Kingdom under control by invasion,
or;
c) Nazi Germany and Italy have failed to isolate and starve the United Kingdom by air and
naval action which might also entail keeping the Republic of Ireland from supplying the
United Kingdom with essentials to include food.

While the Republic of Ireland was "neutral" it did assist the Allies with weather reports including a weather report from Mayo to London which let the Allies know about the break in the weather coming for the 6th of June 1944. That was a rather important weather report.

The Republic of Ireland also did allow Allied overflights but only during the hours of darkness so they could not be visibly seen crossing Irish territory.

I am sure that Ireland also assisted the Allies in other ways as well.

So the Med first strategy would not be a first option unless Italy had detailed planning with Nazi Germany which would have to be done before the French Surrender which was not predicted. Italy under Little Bennie felt that it had to enter the war when it did so it could get something at the peace table. Italy's mistake.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1048
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/1/2020 12:55:34 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

So the very first question we need to have a consensus on is when, realistically, Hitler would have decided a Med strategy is the way to go.

My view is that such a strategy should not be considered until June - and this would have been after the armistice is signed. I say this for three main reasons:

1. Going for any strategy - be it a Med strategy or a Soviet strategy or a Sea Lion strategy - is totally superfluous to Hitler's thinking until such time as Poland and France are defeated. After all, who - least of all Hitler - is going to imagine how the war will pan out in September 1939.

2. Only once Hitler knows Mussolini has joined the war, does the Med even come onto anyone's radar.

3. During May and June 1940 Hitler has his hands full trying to beat France, Britain and their Allies. To suggest that at this time Hitler is going to be diverted from this major operation (Case Yellow) to start thinking earnestly about Spain, and having in-depth conversations with Mussolini and Franco, while France has yet to be resolved, just seems highly unlikely.


Why is this important and the place to start? Well for two reasons:

a) it governs how quickly, after France, an attack on Spain would take place - and that is really important in terms of the knock-on effect elsewhere, the preparedness of the various belligerents etc

b) it also governs what Hitler may or may not have ordered during his time of indecision after France surrenders.

So that's my thoughts, but what do others think? So when, realistically, do we think Hitler would have had his light-bulb moment? To be clear this is simply when Hitler decides that a Med First solution is to be planned and not when the planning is finalised - that comes next....


The Med first strategy would only come about after Italy enters the war, it is too difficult with too many other things that have to be done prior to Nazi Germany trying to dominate thesead when it can't even get ships there.

But an invasion of England could have been contemplated and planned for prior to the attacks on the West starting on 10 May 1940. They may not have been that detailed but the prerequisites could have been decided upon that would need to occur before any invasion of England. There could be different levels of initial commitment based upon how many air transports and gliders would be available, what type of sea lift would be needed and where it would come from plus how to get it there safely.

The air transports would also include light aircraft which could fly in a few men or supplies as was done later by using light aircraft to fly an infantry battalion across a river, two men at a time. Any aircraft that could be used as glider tugs would be identified. All pilots for such aircraft would also have to be trained to a certain extend for towing said gliders.

The Luftwaffe would also have to identify which aircraft would be best used to attack enemy water vessels, even light ones such as MTBs. They might find that the ME-110 would be good for that with their cannons plus light bombs.

The sea lift would not only include barges, anticipating also the capture of barges in the Netherlands, Belgium, and France but also German ones that could be spared that could make the channel crossing. Any ferries would also be identified as Ro-Ro vessels but also how to debar said vehicles and equipment if a suitable port in England has not been captured besides identifying the potential French/Belgian ports to utilize.

Complicated? Yes, but that is what the lower staff is for and it would also be good training even if the plans were not used.

Think if Smiling Albert was given a parachute division, an air landing division, a couple of mountain divisions plus panzer support when the BEF was located elsewhere? To go along with a few airfields in England that were out of reach of the Royal Navy's battleships guns? It might be a tough fight but winnable.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1049
RE: The question to ask about The Italians - 10/1/2020 2:47:25 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Romania and Bulgaria are exactly to the point. You claim that Spain wouldn't flip to the Axis side because of the casualties they would take in an invasion. Yet that's exactly what Romania and Bulgaria did, under the same circumstances (conquest).

warspite1

Again, I don't understand the simplistic nature of your responses. I know less about Bulgaria, but know something of Romania in WWII. So the only reason you think the Romanians switched to the Soviets side, almost four years after joining the Axis, was because under the Germans they took heavy casualties? I mean.... I don't know where to even start with this.

But you think Spain (1940) and Romania (1940-1944) are operating "under the same circumstances"? Why? Please provide a paragraph just setting out how the situations are the same.


You're question was answered above (conquest). I'll try to rephrase it: Romania started out on the Axis side. It fought in Russia, taking thousands of losses to those Russians. The Russians went on to conquer Romania and occupy it. Romania then switched to the Russian side. This would be no different than Spain taking losses to the Germans as the Germans conquered Spain, and then Spain switching to the German side. Clearly, the examples of Romania and Bulgaria show that taking losses from and being conquered by one side does NOT prevent one from switching to that other side. In the case of weak nations, it might even make it probable: they bend with the wind.

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(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 1050
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