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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no guidance

 
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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 10:49:29 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I just showed it works for SARH with a Sparrow. Did you even open the scenario?

Removed the patrol partner before starting the scenario. Colt86 immediately re-establishes datalinks to its missiles. One of the units comes back around to provide guidance.

Interestingly, if a Hornet provides any mid-course guidance the 120s go after their original launch targets. If data link is lost, on average, they choose different aircraft to hit. Just a neat feature that most people will miss.

I check Janes. Several countries, notably the UK, chose 120s that didn't do midcourse guidance. They upgraded a few years ago. The point is, as I pointed out again, 120s without midcourse will still have good percentages of hits against H-6s that barely maneuver.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 10/3/2020 11:02:05 PM >

(in reply to Twistedpretzel)
Post #: 31
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 11:03:05 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
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Status: offline 		So, these units are doing EXACTLY what were ordered to do.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 32
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 11:12:06 PM   
Twistedpretzel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I just showed it works for SARH with a Sparrow. Did you even open the scenario?


This problem is not scenario specific.

The problem. "RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no guidance."

This will happen anytime a unit fires their last BVR weapon while "Weapon State, Pre-Planned:" is "Shotgun: All BVR or standoff weapons have been expended". This is not a scenario specific problem.

In my opinion the unit should guide their weapons until it is no longer necessary before RTB with that specific weapon state doctrine. If you disagree that is fine. In this scenario it is luck that another unit is nearby to guide the weapon, but that is not always the case and the root problem remains unsolved in many other instances.

Since I don't micromanage and I typically want my units to engage with all their BVR weapons but NOT engage with WVR or RTB after a single salvo this is probably one of the doctrine settings I use most often and have the same issue consistently. Unit fires a salvo of BVR weapons then runs away without providing guidance because they don't have any left on the rails.

There are workarounds like you mentioned. You can micromanage to prevent this. Use a weapon state doctrine that has the unit close to WVR range such as "Winchester" or "One engagement with both BVR and WVR".

Or do whatever is necessary with development so with this doctrine a unit will guide BVR weapons until it is no longer necessary (a proper tactic at the unit level) then RTB.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 33
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 11:15:00 PM   
thewood1

 

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Status: offline 		Again, I showed thats not true. I'll repeat. I added a Hornet C with Sparrows. It guided them in. I assume you didn't see that.

(in reply to Twistedpretzel)
Post #: 34
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 11:18:11 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Just again to clarify...

Added the Hornet Cs with Sparrows. Assigned them to the exact same mission as the Fs. Has the same BVR logic. It fires its Sparrows...all of them. It cranks to guide them. As soon as they hit, the Hornet Cs disengage and RTB.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 35
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 11:31:04 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		"This problem is not scenario specific"

You'll have to bring an example. I just ran a Hornet C w/ Sparrow test and it worked until the last BVR weapon every single time.


(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 36
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 11:38:02 PM   
Twistedpretzel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Just again to clarify...

Added the Hornet Cs with Sparrows. Assigned them to the exact same mission as the Fs. Has the same BVR logic. It fires its Sparrows...all of them. It cranks to guide them. As soon as they hit, the Hornet Cs disengage and RTB.


So you agree that is the proper tactic under that doctrine.

We have narrowed the issue down to F/A-18F's or AIM-120D if the same behavior is not exhibited with F/A-18C's and sparrows. The problem still exists. Units will not provide guidance to BVR weapons and go straight to RTB under this specific doctrine if they don't have any BVR weapons left.

I am of the opinion they should provide guidance. I have a feeling this may be specific to the AIM-120D or any weapon that has mid-course guidance from a friendly illuminator and datalink before using its own organic sensor for terminal guidance.

I played the saved scenario. If Gypsy59 is removed from the equation Colt86 will RTB without providing guidance to his weapons.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 37
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 11:48:25 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		There is no problem. The 120s don't need guidance from the firing unit. Its partner unit maintains the guidance. Its exactly how it should work. Its interpreting its orders as disengage immediately. It doesn't need to guide so disengages.

"I played the saved scenario. If Gypsy59 is removed from the equation Colt86 will RTB without providing guidance to his weapons."

Nope. Have done this a dozen times now. If the other unit is removed, the trailing Colt86 plane will turn and reacquire datalink to the 120s.
Then Colt86's trailing unit maintains datalink until the 120s lock on to the enemy themselves. Then retreats.

(in reply to Twistedpretzel)
Post #: 38
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 11:56:47 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Note the 18C fired its last Sparrow. Its maintaining lock. As soon as the Sparrow hits or fails, the 18C goes RTB.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 39
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 11:58:28 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Decided to show the entire screen. Note no Sparrows left. And its on the same mission as the 18Fs were.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 10/3/2020 11:59:27 PM >

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Post #: 40
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 12:31:59 AM   
Battelman2

 

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Status: offline 		thewood1, repeating the same thing over and over isn't changing anyone's mind. So far you are the only one in this thread that believes the 120s should be abandoned by their firing unit. Nobody here is discussing the Sparrows other than you. This isn't about SARH, this is about ARH where guidance is optional but highly desired.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 41
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 12:36:43 AM   
Battelman2

 

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Status: offline 		Regarding removing Gypsy59, I have many times experienced the firing unit not guiding its missile where no CEC platforms are guiding. Not talking about this scenario, but in general I have frequently seen 120s be abandoned if they were the last missile before the unit shotgunned.

(in reply to Battelman2)
Post #: 42
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 12:53:41 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Guys, so if I build a scenario from scratch, is that going to prove it to you. I'm the only one that has brought a shred of evidence. I asked for a scenario where you are seeing it. All I get is a "No, you're wrong". I am repeating myself because I keep escalating the evidence that its working. What has anyone else brought other than opinions and memory.

Show me something to disprove it what I have shown you.

(in reply to Battelman2)
Post #: 43
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 12:57:01 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		OK, the next step. Here is a save of the 18C performing the correct "tactics", based on doctrine in the ROE. Its where I took the screenshots.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 44
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 1:04:35 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Here is the screen shot I took earlier of the trailing 18F from Colt86 after I deleted the other 18F unit. Note its cranking, has 0 120s left, has radar on, and has a datalink to the last 120.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 10/4/2020 1:05:24 AM >

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 45
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 1:12:55 AM   
thewood1

 

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Status: offline 		"Nobody here is discussing the Sparrows other than you"

This is because you jumped in without reading the entire thread. The initial discussion was just about this scenario. The one of the late comers said it was all missiles being abandoned due to shotgun. So I tested both types. I'm repeating myself because we have 3-4 people jumping in with any context.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 46
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 5:35:46 AM   
Battelman2

 

Posts: 93
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Status: offline 		I read the entire thread, it sounds to me like you did not because the OP is clearly talking about the 120s with shotgun weapon state. Your evidence regarding Sparrows and Winchester isn't adding any value to the discussion.

I don't have a save file to provide- If I can get one later I'll attach it. I only wanted to comment that like the OP, I use the Shotgun weapon state and have also noticed the undesired behavior.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 47
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 5:39:13 AM   
Battelman2

 

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quote:

"I played the saved scenario. If Gypsy59 is removed from the equation Colt86 will RTB without providing guidance to his weapons."

Nope. Have done this a dozen times now. If the other unit is removed, the trailing Colt86 plane will turn and reacquire datalink to the 120s.
Then Colt86's trailing unit maintains datalink until the 120s lock on to the enemy themselves. Then retreats.


This is the desired behavior, but sometimes isn't what is happening. On several occasions in the past I have seen this not hold true. I haven't found a pattern to this yet, but if I can find a save where this happens then I will attach it.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 48
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 6:20:12 AM   
guanotwozero

 

Posts: 651
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline 		Rinse-and-repeat 1/3 Rule AAW missions are very common in this game, such as a CAP; therefore it makes sense they should be completely automated without the need for micromanagement.

That implies there should be available a combination of settings to enact multiple engagements then go home after guiding last missiles to target.

I see three possibilities:

a) Those settings exist, and I'm just not noticing them. So what are they? Specifically for this case of F/A-18F with AIM-120Ds - what Weapon State, BVR, whatever else?

b) If such a combination doesn't exist, then I'd suggest that's an omission and should be implemented.

c) If the current example settings are meant to do that, then they're not WAD.

Any other possibilities?

I include another before/after example; after the last missile is fired by Gypsy59, the flight heads for home. The missile remains unguided by any FCR.


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by guanotwozero -- 10/4/2020 6:29:54 AM >

(in reply to Battelman2)
Post #: 49
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 10:22:30 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		All I can say is I am the only one showing how it works at this point. I've shown over and over again that the doctrine drives the wanted tactics. Again, show me different. No one is going to waste time when the only save not provided by me shows proper behavior.

(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 50
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 10:24:31 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I'll also point out that the original part of this thread was about BVR in general, not 120s specifically. Its actually in the thread title. I was still addressing that through most of this thread. Then when I showd it was working, suddenly someone else came in and made it about 120s.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 51
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 1:20:08 PM   
KHawk

 

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This is from CMANO Whatsnew PDF file.


v1.14.7 (Build 998.17) January 08, 2019

• FIXED: Aircraft RTB ing while still guiding BVR missiles


Perhaps a version of it has crept into CMO.

Yes i know CMO and CMANO are not the same but they do rhyme a lot.

Have a nice day.

KHawk

(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 52
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 1:42:19 PM   
thewood1

 

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Status: offline 		Possibly, except, I am showing they don't. Unless another CEC aircraft is guiding them.

(in reply to KHawk)
Post #: 53
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 4:14:38 PM   
Twistedpretzel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I'll also point out that the original part of this thread was about BVR in general, not 120s specifically. Its actually in the thread title. I was still addressing that through most of this thread. Then when I showd it was working, suddenly someone else came in and made it about 120s.


Troubleshooting problems requires replication.

If you can replicate the problem with 120s and not sparrows then the root cause changes from the doctrine setting and unit actions to other factors. Don't get me wrong, testing with sparrows is very helpful. It shows how the doctrine setting SHOULD be working, it was a good test to illustrate that yes the unit should provide guidance under this weapon state setting. If the results are different depending on weapon type, AIM-120 and AIM-7 with different types of guidance even though they are both BVR for example, then the root cause of this may lay with the weapon type.

Basically if you turn the key to your car and the engine doesn't start but then you use a different car and the engine starts that doesn't mean your car is fixed but shows that yes the procedure you used should work as intended. Then you have to go back and determine why your car isn't starting. The issue remains, the root cause is still undetermined.

The next time I run into an instance of this happening I'll save game and share it. I am unable to replicate it 100% of the time reliably. This makes determining the root cause difficult obviously.

< Message edited by Twistedpretzel -- 10/4/2020 4:16:06 PM >

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 54
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 4:59:04 PM   
Twistedpretzel

 

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Status: offline 		Here you go. Bobcat83, after firing the last AIM-120C both planes in Bobcat83 turn for RTB not providing guidance to their weapon. The AIM-120C remains linked to Bobcat83 because the 120C-7 is not CEC capable.

Additionally it appears that as long as Bobcat83s final AIM-120C is in the air no other flights will engage the target it was fired at until it peters out, even if it is a clear miss and well beyond the target aircraft. That could be intentional but to me that seems like failed "game logic" and not intentional simulation. Just noticed, haven't tried reproducing this or investigating it too much myself and I could be totally mistaken.

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< Message edited by Twistedpretzel -- 10/4/2020 5:08:13 PM >

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 5:45:21 PM   
Battelman2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I'll also point out that the original part of this thread was about BVR in general, not 120s specifically. Its actually in the thread title. I was still addressing that through most of this thread. Then when I showd it was working, suddenly someone else came in and made it about 120s.


This thread has always been about 120s. The OP says "In this case a flight of F/A-18Fs (Colt86) fires its last AMRAAM at a target, and immediately turns tail for home without providing pre-terminal guidance."

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 56
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 6:15:05 PM   
KnightHawk75

 

Posts: 1450
Joined: 11/15/2018
Status: offline 		I have seen OP's issue in the recent past with BVR-disengage being used and the immediate RTB vs guide-then-rtb. After more investigation (at first thinking it might be version related) it's possible some of the differences various parties are seeing here is due to grouped flights vs non-grouped flights, and the munition-type.

Here's is the behavior I see in all recent versions (1147.4,.5,.10,.11) based on OP's original (post #1) posted file.

(aim-120d datalink) Because they're what shows the issue in the original post.
Before_RTB_KH10.scen (OP file with all the CEC and related relayed info vectors to knight4 removed and just his radar on to clear things up)
Knight#4 launches his last missile and he and his wingman RTB without guiding the munition, the link stays but uses stale data to the point of ARH. Does not work as expected.

Before_RTB_KH11.scen (same as kh10.scen but with knight #4 detached from his original group)
Knight#4 launches his last missile and he cranks as set and guides it till the point of ARH. Works as expected.

More test rigs build using 1147.10|.11 and db487:
Test_BVRShootGunRTB_120d_1b.scen (A simplified scene | single unit flight)
Super_f_blk3 #1 launches his last missile and he flies straight in (no crank cause enemy is flying away) till the point of ARH. Works as expected.

Test_BVRShootGunRTB_120d_1b.scen (A simplified scene | two unit flight #222 is just along for the ride)
Super_f_blk3 #1 launches his last missile and he and his wingman RTB without guiding the munition, the link stays but uses stale data to the point of ARH. Does not work as expected.

(Aim-7p III's no datalink)
Test_BVRShootGunRTB_120d_o.scen (A simplified scene | single unit flight)
Sparrow_p73_1 launches last missile and he flies straight in (no crank cause enemy flying away) till hit\miss, then rtb. Works as expected.

Test_BVRShootGunRTB_120d_og.scen (A simplified scene | two unit flight, #222 is just along for the ride)
Sparrow_p73_1 launches last missile and he flies straight in (no crank cause enemy flying away) till hit\miss, then rtb. Works as expected.

(aim-152b 120d-datalink)
Test_BVRShootGunRTB_120d_og2.scen (A simplified scene | two unit flight, #222 is just along for the ride)
Tomcat_AST_#111 launches last missile and he and his wingman RTB without guiding the munition to the ARH point, the link stays but uses stale data to the point of ARH. Does not work as expected.

Test_BVRShootGunRTB_120d_og2.scen - Manually delete the group (flight334) but not units. Press play. Follows in till point of ARH, Works as expected.

A) Can someone verify you see what I see in each file without changing anything (og2 group delete excluded).
B) What is it about the group'd cases with data-linked-munitions that causes it to act differently?

edit:
BTW in case anyone is gonna try testing it, it makes no difference in the grouped cases if it's the "lead" aircraft of the group shooting or not.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by KnightHawk75 -- 10/4/2020 6:31:46 PM >

(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 57
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 6:18:29 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Finally someone actually brings some saves with them beyond the OP.

(in reply to KnightHawk75)
Post #: 58
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/4/2020 6:30:57 PM   
KnightHawk75

 

Posts: 1450
Joined: 11/15/2018
Status: offline 		BTW in case anyone is gonna try testing it, it makes no difference in the grouped cases if it's the "lead" aircraft of the group shooting or not (I tried it both ways in other variations of grouped tests but didn't want to pollute the upload with all 20 files lol).


< Message edited by KnightHawk75 -- 10/4/2020 6:32:07 PM >

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 59
RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/5/2020 4:04:18 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline 		Logged for investigation.

0014173

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