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RE: Turn 9: center - Maskirovka

 
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RE: Turn 9: center - Maskirovka - 10/1/2020 5:01:24 PM   
redrum68

 

Posts: 1202
Joined: 11/26/2017
Status: offline 		How far (hexes/MP) were the units from the railhead that you used the HQBU on? And did you make sure not to move those units the turn you used the HQBU?

(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 31
RE: Turn 9: center - Maskirovka - 10/1/2020 5:11:02 PM   
CapAndGown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

How far (hexes/MP) were the units from the railhead that you used the HQBU on? And did you make sure not to move those units the turn you used the HQBU?


Not sure about the units themselves, but the HQs were (if I recall) right at the 25 MP limit. That would place the units even further away. And yes, I moved a number of them one hex back from the front line so they would not be in contact with enemy forces.

(in reply to redrum68)
Post #: 32
RE: Turn 9: center - Maskirovka - 10/1/2020 5:20:38 PM   
redrum68

 

Posts: 1202
Joined: 11/26/2017
Status: offline 		My guess is you were a bit too far away to get good fuel from HQBU. You want the HQ/units to be more around 15-20 hexes away if they are more than that then the penalties really hurt.

(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 33
Turn 10: attempting a Kiev size pocket - 10/1/2020 9:21:36 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		From the beginning of the campaign I have been envisioning a Kiev style pocket. That is why I had an FBD cutting across the top of the marshes heading towards Gomel: i.e. to support a move south from AGC. (A second rail line though Belorossia also provides some redundancy in case of partisan attacks.)

This turn that dream was almost realized. (It will be more fully realized next turn.) Only two AT bridages were defending the crossings of the lower Desna at Chernigov. Elements of both 4 and 6 Armies exploited this weakness to secure a bridgehead over the lower Desna, opening a way into the northwestern Ukraine. At that point, one panzer corps of 2 PzA was ordered to exploit through the lower Desna breach and the other panzer corps (with the help of a panzer corps from 3 PzA) crossed the upper Desna and headed south to Sumy and then southwest towards Cherkassky. Simultaneously, one corps from 6 Army was ordered to create a bridgehead north of Cherkassky and link up with 2 PzA. The attempt to cross the Dnepr failed, however, due to the commitment of a reserve tank division. In light of that 2 PzA settled for cutting the rail line to Kiev and then pulling back to try to secure the pocket along the Desna.

The pocket looked fairly secure, requiring multiple zoc to zoc move through enemy controlled hexes to break it, something I did not think the Soviets had in them. I was wrong, as will be seen in the next post.

In in the process of this penetration I did overrun a Mig heavy fighter base that likely had multiple damaged airframes. All told, the Soviets lost 561 airframes this turn. I also seem to have overrun Southwest Front HQ based on the large amount of supplies and fuel we captured.

Elsewhere this turn the slogging remained slow around Leningrad and we consolidated our positions around Krivoi Rog.

Stay tuned for the exciting developments on turn 11!





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(in reply to redrum68)
Post #: 34
turn 11 start: Kaos at Kursk! - 10/1/2020 9:49:47 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		As I mentioned in my last post, the Soviets were able break my pockets through a combination of zoc to zoc moves and a successful hasty attack on a cavalry regiment. They in turn pocketed elements of 2 and 3 Panzer Armies. They were not, however aggressive enough in pulling back from Kiev, instead wasting movement points converting German controlled hexes, movement points that could have been used to runaway! I did HQBU's for 3 panzer corps from 1 PzA last turn and those units have 50 movement points ready to use to create a very large pocket. Plus, one corps from 3 PzA is relatively well provisioned so as to mount not only a relief effort, but even further pocketing.

What's up with converting rail hexes inside a pocket?





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(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 35
RE: turn 11 start: Kaos at Kursk! - 10/1/2020 11:02:20 PM   
Jsto0033


Posts: 23
Joined: 3/7/2018
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		It's a buck. I have see it some times now, but you can just return them to HQ. No big deal
I have reported it to Tech Support for some time ago.

_____________________________


(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 36
RE: turn 11 start: Kaos at Kursk! - 10/1/2020 11:49:09 PM   
eskuche

 

Posts: 1094
Joined: 3/27/2018
From: OH, USA
Status: offline 		I will say that I've been quite interested in HQBU's in 1.12, having used exactly two and getting only ~20-25 MP near Poltava (with no movement), although some people swear by them. I ran a test last night, and it seems that the difference may be the rail modifier because a unit at 25 hexes from the starting border (100% rail modifier) gets the full 50 MP, whereas what you and I have seen further east has much lower.

(in reply to Jsto0033)
Post #: 37
RE: turn 11 start: Kaos at Kursk! - 10/2/2020 12:13:05 AM   
CapAndGown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche

I will say that I've been quite interested in HQBU's in 1.12, having used exactly two and getting only ~20-25 MP near Poltava (with no movement), although some people swear by them. I ran a test last night, and it seems that the difference may be the rail modifier because a unit at 25 hexes from the starting border (100% rail modifier) gets the full 50 MP, whereas what you and I have seen further east has much lower.


Well, my panzers around Krivoi Rog have 50 MP. So it is not a matter of how far east they are. It may have something to do with how much gas the panzers had to start with as well as HQ distance to the rail head.

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Post #: 38
turn 11 after movement - 10/2/2020 12:25:35 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		With the help of one panzer corps from 1 PzA plus Gross Deutschland we have achievee our Kiev pocket. This one looks mostly secure. Three Soviet relieving divisions (tank, motorized, rifle) found themselves pocketed after helping pocket our forces.

More on other theaters later.





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Post #: 39
RE: turn 11 after movement - 10/2/2020 11:34:03 AM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
Joined: 7/28/2011
Status: offline 		Excellent move securing the Kiev pocket.
Looks like close to 30 map counters in there. That will hurt.

For the benefit of observers, can you add details next time you HQBU?
We’re curious about distance of HQ to railhead, and dumps before and after.
It’s been said that trucks are no longer a constraint, so I’d be curious the costs associated there, and how it is affecting your overall pool.

(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 40
RE: turn 11 after movement - 10/2/2020 3:06:32 PM   
eskuche

 

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Status: offline 		Ah, forgot to say, the deception looks like it probably worked. I enjoy working around the fog of war inasmuch as the engine allows, so good job there!

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 41
turn 11: I am an idiot - 10/3/2020 5:07:29 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		I will keep track of HQBU's from now on and provide that info. For now the vehicle pool looks fine have 179, need 118.

I screwed up royally in the south. I was focused on threatening an encirclement of Soviet forces around the Dnepr bend. I didn't have the forces right now to even attempt such an encirclement, but the threat would be there for next turn. This would, in turn dislodge his defensive line along the Dnepr and force a withdrawal. With this in mind, I was overly focused on ensuring that my own forces did not become encircled by the Soviets. I launched a raid to take out some air bases and hopefully destroy some air frames, but then pull back into a good defensive position. (BTW: the Soviets lost 600 air frames this turn, including 106 Migs.)

What I should have done is raided the Donbas complex. Stalino still has 29 armament factories while Makeevka and Gorlovka has the starting allotment of HI and armament factories. An after the fact reconnaissance showed Stalino had no garrison. The movement points I used to make the airbase raid and withdrawal could have just as easily been used to raid the Donbas and withdraw to safety afterwards. Grrrrr.





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< Message edited by cap_and_gown -- 10/3/2020 5:42:47 AM >

(in reply to eskuche)
Post #: 42
turn 11: other action - 10/3/2020 5:36:37 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		In other sections of the front:

1) The Finnish theater interests me as much as the China theater does in War in the Pacific, which is to say not at all. I am surprised I even remember it some turns. This turn I finally decided to do something there. The Soviets had been holding the choke point north of Lake Ladoga and I had been content to let them tie up a number of divisions here as opposed to just creating some fortified regions along the no attack line. This turn I changed my mind. Soviet fort building was getting out of hand and I needed to do something about it now or never, so I finally launched two deliberate attacks to breakthrough the bottle neck.

I should also note that one of my corps there finally, FINALLY, activated. Geez.

2) Leningrad continues to be a slog. Orienbaum is ridiculous. A defensive value of 1, yet nothing, NOTHING seems to phase it.

3) Since Leningrad has been such a slog, I diverted a panzer corps from the Luga down south where we opened up a hole in the Soviet lines west of Rzhev. Again, the Soviets in this sector had a defensive line only 10 miles deep. No big encirclement, plus the woods really slowed things down, but you take what you can get.





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< Message edited by cap_and_gown -- 10/3/2020 5:41:15 AM >

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Post #: 43
RE: turn 11: other action - 10/3/2020 6:00:27 AM   
redrum68

 

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Joined: 11/26/2017
Status: offline 		Either way, why withdraw the units that did raid in the south? Leaving them up there would have secured those hexes and made an encirclement next turn more of a threat.

(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 44
RE: turn 11: other action - 10/3/2020 6:12:52 AM   
CapAndGown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

Either way, why withdraw the units that did raid in the south? Leaving them up there would have secured those hexes and made an encirclement next turn more of a threat.


There are no relief forces that could save them should they become encircled.

(in reply to redrum68)
Post #: 45
RE: turn 11: other action - 10/3/2020 3:35:46 PM   
redrum68

 

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Status: offline 		There's not really anyway he has the units or movement to encircle them with your thrust being 6 hexes wide.

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Post #: 46
RE: turn 11: other action - 10/3/2020 9:01:32 PM   
CapAndGown


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From: Virginia, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

There's not really anyway he has the units or movement to encircle them with your thrust being 6 hexes wide.


I would have thought the same thing right up until he broke my pockets during his turn 10 move and encircled a bunch of my panzers. A few lucky rolls and some of those cavalry divisions can get ALOT of movement points.

(in reply to redrum68)
Post #: 47
RE: turn 11: other action - 10/3/2020 9:04:37 PM   
redrum68

 

Posts: 1202
Joined: 11/26/2017
Status: offline 		True they can have 22 MP and if high morale only 3 MP per enemy hex. That said as long as you have a every other hex ZoC and some reserve panzers or infantry behind the thrust they won't be able to do much.

(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 48
turn 12: soviet losses - 10/8/2020 1:46:42 AM   
CapAndGown2

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 10/7/2020
Status: offline 		The Kiev pocket yielded 300k soviet casualties: 23 rifle, 1 motorized, 5 tank and 2 cavalry divisions as well as an army HQ and 2 AT brigades.

I would post a picture, but my computer died and I can't get back into to my old log in, so I am using a new account.

(in reply to redrum68)
Post #: 49
RE: turn 12: soviet losses - 10/8/2020 1:52:45 AM   
eskuche

 

Posts: 1094
Joined: 3/27/2018
From: OH, USA
Status: offline 		Down with underscores! They are a Bolshevik implement anyway.

(in reply to CapAndGown2)
Post #: 50
RE: turn 12: soviet losses - 10/8/2020 1:59:51 AM   
CapAndGown2

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 10/7/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: eskuche

Down with underscores! They are a Bolshevik implement anyway.


But I've had that login for 19 years!!

I know, I will go over to the WitP forum and start posting in "THE THREAD" to get my post count up.

(in reply to eskuche)
Post #: 51
RE: turn 12: soviet losses - 10/9/2020 3:17:27 AM   
CapAndGown2

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 10/7/2020
Status: offline 		By popular demand:

HQBU stats before build up:
HQ 25 MP (to railhead); 83 supply dumps, 41 fuel dumps
20 Pz 25 MP; 66/437 (fuel have/need)
20 Motor 28 MP; 57/326
14 Motor 29 MP; 40/321
7 Pz 30 MP; 82/444
none of the divisions moved

(in reply to CapAndGown2)
Post #: 52
RE: turn 12: soviet losses - 10/9/2020 3:28:38 AM   
redrum68

 

Posts: 1202
Joined: 11/26/2017
Status: offline 		Really need hex ranges as well (those are actually more important than MP in general for supply/fuel).

(in reply to CapAndGown2)
Post #: 53
RE: turn 12: soviet losses - 10/9/2020 5:57:27 AM   
CapAndGown2

 

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Joined: 10/7/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

Really need hex ranges as well (those are actually more important than MP in general for supply/fuel).


Won't know until I get the turn back. I was just putting up that info while I had it. We shall see. I am not expecting to see many MPs, but I didn't want that corps to just wait around trying to scrounge up gas.

(in reply to redrum68)
Post #: 54
RE: turn 12: soviet losses - 10/11/2020 3:41:55 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		Here are the results of the HQBU from post #52

Everyone is at least 5 MP closer to the rail head this turn.

HQ 209 supply dumps, 169 fuel dumps
20 Pz - 40 MP 358/444
20 Motor - 41 MP 265/322
14 Motor - 38 MP 246/317
7 Pz - 40 MP 357/433

Vehicle pool went from 185k to 183k.

< Message edited by cap and gown -- 10/11/2020 3:42:48 AM >

(in reply to CapAndGown2)
Post #: 55
Turn 12 - 10/14/2020 2:42:24 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		There is little to report for turn 12. Leningrad is a slog. Completed the encirclement of two divisions near Rzhev. 6 Army is scattered all hither and yon from cleaning up the massive pocket we created last turn. Infantry marches east everywhere.

The only real action of note was around Zaparozhe where we encircle a few units which did not retreat from the Dnepr. The pocket will be opened next turn, but three units will be unable to escape.





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(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 56
Turn 13 HQBU - 10/14/2020 2:51:37 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		Yet another HQBU to record:

HQ 22 MP to rail head, 203 supply dump, 140 fuel dump
SS Wiking 29 MP to rail head, fuel have/need 85/378
9 Pz 23 MP, 113/394
16 Pz 21 MP, 291/569
10 Pz 20 MP, 273/485

(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 57
Turn 13: south - 10/15/2020 12:54:25 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		We have achieved a breakthrough into the Crimea and much more firmly closed the pocket around Zaparozhe.






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(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 58
Turn 13: Orel - 10/15/2020 1:06:36 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		With help from 4 Army, panzer armies 2 & 3 make a small encirclement around Orel. The pocket includes 6 rifle and 1 cavalry divisions plus the HQ for the 12th Army. Though the pocket is small, the huge gap in the Russian front line created threatens Voronezh and its IL-2 factories. We expect they will be evacuated this turn, greatly throttling the production of the Soviet Union's premier ground attack aircraft.





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(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 59
Turn 13: Moscow - 10/15/2020 1:24:26 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
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From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		Meanwhile, 9 and 2 armies slowly bludgeon their way towards Moscow.

I will skip an image from Leningrad where progress continues very, very slowly.

In the air, OKL ordered rest for our almost all our air groups this turn. Fighter ranges were set to 10 miles while ground support and interdiction were turned off. Fatigue has become excessive and losses are mounting.





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< Message edited by cap and gown -- 10/15/2020 1:27:38 AM >

(in reply to CapAndGown)
Post #: 60
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