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AI Cheats - 10/16/2020 10:35:00 PM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		I read in one of the threads that bombing the railyards is of limited use as the AI doesn't play by same rules as human players.

I started a Campaign for Italy games vs the AI and I'm playing the Germans. I basically just gave up Sicily and pulled back the German forces to the Italian mainland with within 2 turns the allieds launched a massive amphib invasion at Toranto.

I have a mirrored games vs the Ai and playing the allieds and now way I could have launched a massive amphib invasion so quickly.

Does the AI gets cheats? What other cheats does it get and is there a way to turn that off. Also if you play at higher difficulty vs the AI do the cheats get more blatant?
Post #: 1
RE: AI Cheats - 10/17/2020 1:59:49 AM   
Zenra


Posts: 179
Joined: 4/25/2002
From: Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Status: offline 		On what turn did the AI Allies hit the mainland?

I usually redirect one of the initial Allied invasion TF’s to Toranto or somewhere on the boot to try and cut off the enemy. Do you think the AI redirected one of the starting TF’s, or did it look like all of the Allied forces landed on Sicily as they did historically?

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Mitchell

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Post #: 2
RE: AI Cheats - 10/17/2020 2:27:33 AM   
cfulbright

 

Posts: 2778
Joined: 5/7/2003
Status: offline 		One of the blatant cheats for the AI is that it can "teleport" units around the map.

Cary

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Post #: 3
RE: AI Cheats - 10/17/2020 5:48:35 PM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		Here are some screenshots one from July 24th and the other from August 14th. The size and speed of the amphib invasions look suspicious.




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RE: AI Cheats - 10/17/2020 5:50:14 PM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		Here is Amphib invasion of Toranto very shortly after.




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RE: AI Cheats - 10/17/2020 7:13:16 PM   
cfulbright

 

Posts: 2778
Joined: 5/7/2003
Status: offline 		Absolutely an AI cheat.

1. Division-sized landing prep will add amphib points at a rate of the port size per turn. In other words, if you have a TF and division in Oran (port size 6), it will add 6 amphib prep points per turn. Bone would add 4 per turn and Bizerte 3 per turn.
2. The earliest they could start prep would have been turn 2, assuming the Allied AI returned all six TFs to port that turn.
3. There are five division-sized landings in your turn 6 screenshot. To successfully launch an invasion, they would need 9 turns of Amphib prep if they're in a size 6 port, so turn 11 at the earliest. You only have three size-6 ports in the Med - Oran, Algiers, and Tunis, so two of the division-sized landing would have taken 13 turns of prep in your size 4 ports of Valletta and Bone, or turn 14.
4. You have 6 US divisions in the Med at the start of the game, 8 UK, 1 CA, and one FF Mtn division. Of those numbers, 3 US (1st, 3rd, and 45th), 3 UK (5th, 50th, and 51st), and the 1st CA division should have been used in the turn 1 invasion.
5. From your turn 6 screenshot it looks like the AI landed 4-5 US divisions, 1-4 UK divisions, and possibly the FF Mtn division. Almost certainly the turn 6 invasion used at least one US division that also was used in the turn 1 invasion, and possibly some of the UK divisions.
6. Can you check the names of those units and see if any of them a) were in the turn 1 invasions; and/or b) if any of them were opposing you in Sicily on turns 4 or 5?

Cary

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Post #: 6
RE: AI Cheats - 10/17/2020 10:21:25 PM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cfulbright

Absolutely an AI cheat.

1. Division-sized landing prep will add amphib points at a rate of the port size per turn. In other words, if you have a TF and division in Oran (port size 6), it will add 6 amphib prep points per turn. Bone would add 4 per turn and Bizerte 3 per turn.
2. The earliest they could start prep would have been turn 2, assuming the Allied AI returned all six TFs to port that turn.
3. There are five division-sized landings in your turn 6 screenshot. To successfully launch an invasion, they would need 9 turns of Amphib prep if they're in a size 6 port, so turn 11 at the earliest. You only have three size-6 ports in the Med - Oran, Algiers, and Tunis, so two of the division-sized landing would have taken 13 turns of prep in your size 4 ports of Valletta and Bone, or turn 14.
4. You have 6 US divisions in the Med at the start of the game, 8 UK, 1 CA, and one FF Mtn division. Of those numbers, 3 US (1st, 3rd, and 45th), 3 UK (5th, 50th, and 51st), and the 1st CA division should have been used in the turn 1 invasion.
5. From your turn 6 screenshot it looks like the AI landed 4-5 US divisions, 1-4 UK divisions, and possibly the FF Mtn division. Almost certainly the turn 6 invasion used at least one US division that also was used in the turn 1 invasion, and possibly some of the UK divisions.
6. Can you check the names of those units and see if any of them a) were in the turn 1 invasions; and/or b) if any of them were opposing you in Sicily on turns 4 or 5?

Cary



Deng-unfortunately I deleted the game. Figured I'll stick to what I already have going and plan on playing a human so I don't have to deal with the AI cheats.

Not shown in the Aug 24th screenshot were the 2 British Airborne units that were completely wiped out on the turn of the invasion of Toranto.

I can try and recreated what happened and can turn off the fog of war. Basically as the Axis I pulled back all air units to the mainland on turn-1. Pulled back the HQs and air HQ off Sicily. Pulled back all of the German units and Italian mech units in a fast retreat across the Messina Straights to the mainland.

The Allieds gained full control of Sicily, pretty quickly. I think that may have triggered some sort of script in the game?

In any case I compared what the AI was able to do as the Allieds and what I could do playing as the Allieds and said to myself, that looks fishy.

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 10/17/2020 10:22:37 PM >

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Post #: 7
RE: AI Cheats - 10/17/2020 10:56:47 PM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		Setup new game fog of war turned off, normal difficulty. Turn-1




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Post #: 8
RE: AI Cheats - 10/17/2020 10:58:34 PM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		Turn-2




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Post #: 9
RE: AI Cheats - 10/17/2020 10:59:10 PM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		Turn-3




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Post #: 10
RE: AI Cheats - 10/17/2020 10:59:42 PM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		Next




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Post #: 11
RE: AI Cheats - 10/17/2020 11:00:34 PM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		Walla...




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RE: AI Cheats - 10/18/2020 2:11:47 AM   
cfulbright

 

Posts: 2778
Joined: 5/7/2003
Status: offline 		Which are the US divisions in Taranto and in Sicily in Turn 7?

Cary

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Post #: 13
RE: AI Cheats - 10/18/2020 2:54:39 AM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		List in Toranto

1st US div 4/4
9th US div5/5
34th US div 2/2
36th US div 2/2
45th US div 2/2
6625 Ranger
2nd US Armored Div 1/1 on ships

1st British Div 3/3
78th British Div 7/7
46th British Div 6/6
56th British Div 4/4
2/1 British Airborne
4th Tarbor
2nd Tabot
4th Moroccan
7th British Armored 2/2 on ships
6th British Armored 1/1 on ships

1/1 British Airborne airdrop
3/1 British Airborne airdrop

Sicily

3rd Division 7/79
3/82
2/82
1/82

4th British
231 British
51st British Div
1st CA
23 British Arm Brigade
1st CA arm
5th British 8/121

I have saved the turns and can upload

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 10/18/2020 3:02:01 AM >

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Post #: 14
RE: AI Cheats - 10/18/2020 4:00:51 AM   
cfulbright

 

Posts: 2778
Joined: 5/7/2003
Status: offline 		So the AI was able to pull the 1st and 45th US divs out of Sicily, prep them, and land them in another amphibious attack six turns later - or less, depending on when they got pulled out of Sicily. And the 9th US div, which was assigned to 7th US Army on turn 1, and may have gotten to Sicily as a second wave, also made it to Taranto.

You're showing 4 of 6 US Med divs near Catania in turn 5, at least three of them were in the invasion in the next turn. Also both BR armoured divs are in Sicily on Turn 6, not in ports and not embarked, and though one of them is next to Palermo that port is probably damaged, and the other is Gela, which is a size 1 port that couldn't embark an armoured div even if it's undamaged. Not sure which US armored div is in Sicily in turn 6, that might be the 2nd AD, which also manages to get embarked and shipped to offshore Taranto.

So yes, the AI did some things a human player wouldn't be able to do.

Cary


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Post #: 15
RE: AI Cheats - 10/18/2020 5:21:17 AM   
Zenra


Posts: 179
Joined: 4/25/2002
From: Grand Rapids, MI, USA
Status: offline 		Pretty compelling evidence.

Crap.

Next someone is going to tell me Santa isn't real...

Seriously, though, thanks for sharing your work. I certainly wish the AO could be better on the offense but I understand that is a lot harder to pull off, especially with amphibious invasion involved. I usually play SP as the allies and so far the program does a good job of challenging me, at least enough to let me have fun looking at and ordering all the historic units and re-enacting the events.

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Mitchell

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Post #: 16
RE: AI Cheats - 10/18/2020 3:18:57 PM   
sfbaytf

 

Posts: 1122
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline 		I would agree so far that playing as the allieds is more challenging and enjoyable at the moment due when playing against the AI due to the constraints of the game. May just stick to that.

I just installed the Black Ice mod for Hearts of Iron 4 and learning that so I’ll be able to compare the 2 game engines.

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Post #: 17
RE: AI Cheats - 10/25/2020 11:23:14 PM   
fritzfarlig


Posts: 422
Joined: 1/13/2016
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Human opponents is always number one

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Post #: 18
RE: AI Cheats - 12/1/2020 10:47:37 AM   
Protonic2020


Posts: 142
Joined: 10/10/2020
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Oh great, i just bought this game and with the intention to mainly play the AI. It´s the same story over and over again, a poor AI that never can stick to playing the game with the same rules as the human player. I didn´t need to see this straight after me purchasing WitW lol.
Comforting to know then that i didn´t pay the full price for it then and Merry Christmas prematurely everyone! (Or what´s it called).

< Message edited by Protonic2020 -- 12/1/2020 10:51:06 AM >

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Post #: 19
RE: AI Cheats - 12/2/2020 2:42:24 AM   
GeneralDad

 

Posts: 111
Joined: 1/7/2018
Status: offline 		Here is another AI cheat for you (D-Day, May Start). Naval Interdiction points in the Seine Bay. I destroyed the Axis ports - 100% - so they do not contribute to interdiction. In the Seine Bay I have a whopping 19803 to 1221 advantage in interdiction points; yet the Axis has a lot of hexes with 3's (30's) where I have 7's (70's). Thus a 16 to 1 ratio of interdiction points only translates to 2:1 or 3:1 in interdiction in most hexes. Worse the Amphib HQs are at losses of [12, 9, 5, 14, 19] in my air phase just after the invasion - most runs of this are even worse. The amphibs get roasted.

I have:
Killed the local ports.
Major AS missions from 4 commands.
RAF Coastal running hard with NP.

The A/S does not do much suppression & the major advantage in interdiction points does not stop the Germans bleeding the Amphibs heavily.

When I tried D-Day start with human AI air vs Axis AI w/ AI air the result was much worse. When I tried the same with human vs human both with AI air the Axis had almost no interdiction in the bay. The AI player has something up its sleeve...

Gen Dad.




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RE: AI Cheats - 12/2/2020 7:06:47 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GeneralDad

...

When I tried D-Day start with human AI air vs Axis AI w/ AI air the result was much worse. When I tried the same with human vs human both with AI air the Axis had almost no interdiction in the bay. The AI player has something up its sleeve...

Gen Dad.





actually its not an AI cheat, its an AI with no long term grasp of the situation and thus of force preservation and retention

Having said that, in PBEM as the human axis player I've both sealed off the Bristol Channel and got 5+ interdiction over the invasion zone (my opponent matched that but it still inflicted a lot of attrition)

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