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Convert CAP range to Escort range

 
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Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/19/2020 12:33:22 AM   
KungPao


Posts: 333
Joined: 4/25/2016
From: Red China
Status: offline 		Is there any formula that can easily convert CAP Range to Escort range?

For example, I have a F-16CG Blk 40 with 4 AMRAAMs. I want to know if it has the range to cover a F-15E that has 875nm strike range?

from the F-16 loadout range and profile: 85min at 200nm CAP (on station loiter), I will ignore other reserved for combat data
from DB3000 the F-16's fuel consumption rate is 17.12kg/min at 350kt, 21.41kg/min at 480kt. That means the 85min Loiter on station is roughly equal to 68min, and covert to range of 543nm at cruise speed 480kt

So I guess the Escort range should be 743nm?
Am I correct here?


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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/19/2020 12:40:33 AM   
KungPao


Posts: 333
Joined: 4/25/2016
From: Red China
Status: offline 		Crap. I realized I made a mistake
the CAP range is calculated based on 200nm RTB range
But in an escort role the A/C is moving forward, so the safety RTB range is not fixed at 200nm. Guess I will need a math formula to do the conversation.

Anyway, if anyone knows how to convert please let me know
thx


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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/19/2020 1:22:53 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
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Status: offline 		Loadout data is very complicated, there's a lot of moving parts.

Fuel consumption changes with loadout and the fraction of the total loadout weight remaining; so your F-16 will burn more fuel by carring AAW weapons but the consumption will drop off after firing them.

For what you're trying to achieve, the easiest way to figure this out is to run a test with the relevant loadouts and record the data. Spreadsheet calculations are going to be very fragile and inconsistent unless you devote an inordinate amount of time to it.

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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/19/2020 2:49:35 AM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		I suppose you could figure it out exactly. I tend to just use rules of thumb. If I'm operating on the extreme edge of the aircraft's range, I probably need a tanker (NKAWTG). You always want to have more gas than necessary. Running out of gas stinks.

F-15s have really long legs. F-16s have really short legs. In that sense they're a little mismatched. If I had a mixed package of both, I'd have the whole package rendezvous at a tanker and push from there together. The mudhens might have more gas than strictly necessary but I doubt anyone would complain. Remember: NKAWTG.




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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/19/2020 5:47:56 AM   
JFS737

 

Posts: 66
Joined: 9/8/2017
Status: offline 		In the database for each aircraft, at the bottom are the detailed fuel burns for each altitude and throttle setting in kg/min. I assume this is for clean aircraft, but it should still give you decent info (fuel burns for standard fighter loadouts seem to be only about 10% higher). Might be a help to you in determining a rule of thumb or formula.

Regards,
John

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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/19/2020 5:34:37 PM   
KungPao


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

I tend to just use rules of thumb. If I'm operating on the extreme edge of the aircraft's range, I probably need a tanker (NKAWTG). You always want to have more gas than necessary. Running out of gas stinks.



Yes, sending everyone onto a refuel point always helpful. Initiate the attack from there with everyone's belly full will increase the firepower to secure a sucess.
I usually have a good feeling on how many tankers I need. But I feel it is a time to put personal feeling aside, use some scientific analysis to support a decision making?
Also, in some scenario the player don't have tanker support.


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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/19/2020 5:49:01 PM   
KungPao


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rory Noonan

Fuel consumption changes with loadout and the fraction of the total loadout weight remaining; so your F-16 will burn more fuel by carring AAW weapons but the consumption will drop off after firing them.

Yes, I am aware of that. In fact there are some gamey trick to keep the flight group has longer loiter time, that will need some micromanagement however. For example if there is a 4th Gen fighter ahead of your group, instead of the flight leader fire two missile, you can have the leader and wingman each fire one missile.
But for now I will not put this into the calculation, as I just want to find out the maximum escort range in a prefect situation ,

quote:

For what you're trying to achieve, the easiest way to figure this out is to run a test with the relevant loadouts and record the data. Spreadsheet calculations are going to be very fragile and inconsistent unless you devote an inordinate amount of time to it.

Thx for the suggestion. I guess I will have time to do some test during the coming weekend, so right now all I can do is to make a spreadsheet calculation to satisfy my curiosity


Here is the conclusion
Patrol Distance (nm) Patrol time (min)
200................... 85

250................. 65
300................ 46
350................ 26
400................ 6

428.84........ 0




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by KungPao -- 10/19/2020 5:53:07 PM >

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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/19/2020 5:52:32 PM   
SeaQueen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KungPao
For example if there is a 4th Gen fighter ahead of your group, instead of the flight leader fire two missile, you can have the leader and wingman each fire one missile.


I don't think that's "gamey" I think that's pretty smart.

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Post #: 8
RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/19/2020 7:45:30 PM   
Gunner98

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen


quote:

ORIGINAL: KungPao
For example if there is a 4th Gen fighter ahead of your group, instead of the flight leader fire two missile, you can have the leader and wingman each fire one missile.


I don't think that's "gamey" I think that's pretty smart.



Yeah, I do that all the time, keeps missiles and fuel balanced, if you lose one AC, you at least know you have balanced load of missiles left, depending on the AC/missile spreads out the guidance task. Not gamey at all.

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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/20/2020 12:44:18 AM   
SeaQueen


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quote:

I usually have a good feeling on how many tankers I need. But I feel it is a time to put personal feeling aside, use some scientific analysis to support a decision making?
Also, in some scenario the player don't have tanker support.


If you don't have tankers, then the max range of the package is the max range of the shortest legged aircraft in it (~500NM).

Scientifically, the amount of give a tanker has depends on how far out you put the tanker, how much on station time you plan for it to have (e.g. is this a 6 hour VUL?) and then whatever is left is their give. Divide the max fuel load of the aircraft by the remaining fuel and that's the number of aircraft you can plan on refueling (conservatively). You'll actually have more give than that because each aircraft will rarely take almost a full load.

-Sarah

< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 10/20/2020 1:43:54 AM >

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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/21/2020 2:57:37 AM   
KnightHawk75

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

Yeah, I do that all the time, keeps missiles and fuel balanced, if you lose one AC, you at least know you have balanced load of missiles left, depending on the AC/missile spreads out the guidance task. Not gamey at all.


Same, always trying to keep the fuel status all group members the similar... when I can anyway, just easier to manage things that way. :)

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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/23/2020 1:44:50 PM   
KungPao


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

If you don't have tankers, then the max range of the package is the max range of the shortest legged aircraft in it (~500NM).


That's the exactly why I raise the question, find out who is the shortest legged in a strike package. By converting the CAP range we could have a better data to make a decision.

For example , let's think about a scenario Greek air force decided to strike a target in Libya at 450nm away.

The A-7H armed with Mk82 has strike range at 485nm, so they can barely make it. But can the F-16 with 4 AIM-120 reach the target?

based on my calculation above, Heavy A/A load F-16 cannot make it (428nm). So it is better to change the loadout to light loadout. Halve the firepower, but at least they can reach the target finish their escort task


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

Scientifically, the amount of give a tanker has depends on how far out you put the tanker, how much on station time you plan for it to have (e.g. is this a 6 hour VUL?) and then whatever is left is their give. Divide the max fuel load of the aircraft by the remaining fuel and that's the number of aircraft you can plan on refueling (conservatively). You'll actually have more give than that because each aircraft will rarely take almost a full load.



Thanks for that, I will keep it in mind.


< Message edited by KungPao -- 10/23/2020 1:45:44 PM >

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Post #: 12
RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/29/2020 12:09:02 AM   
KungPao


Posts: 333
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From: Red China
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KungPao

Here is the conclusion
Patrol Distance (nm) Patrol time (min)
200................... 85

250................. 65
300................ 46
350................ 26
400................ 6

428.84........ 0





Ok, I did some tests. The conclusion above is not correct. The Bingo fuel/RTB happened at 533nm away, much further than my calculation. Then I did another test on how long a F-16 can be on station at a Patrol Zone 200nm away. The result was 103 Min. That’s a significant difference compare to "85min on station" in Loadout description.

So I was thinking what cause the difference. Then realized that it is caused by “ 2 Min combat for AB”. So if it is an uneventfully patrol, the A/C will expend fuel reserved for combat in patrol.

Well, time to modify the formula, and here is the new conclusion:

Calculated Max Escort Range (Bingo) 536nm

Patrol Distance (nm) Patrol time (before Bingo/RTB)
200 ………….. 105

250 ………….. 90
300 ………….. 74
350 ………….. 58
400 ………….. 43
450 ………….. 27
500 ………….. 11

Then I did more tests on Patrol time at 300nm 400nm and 500nm away. The result is 73min, 44min and 12 min. Compare to my calculation 74, 43 and 11, I would say the formula match my expectation, it works. : )

I am confident to use the same formula to calculate other A/C’s Patrol time and max escort range

I have attached 3 spreadsheets, they include the calculation for F-16 heavy/light loadout, F-15 heavy/light. Su-27s. In the future I am going to add F/A-18, F-14, Mig-29, J-10 and others.

Hopefully this will help our gameplay, at least we will have a better picture on how far our fighters can reach.

Cheers.



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by KungPao -- 10/29/2020 12:55:52 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 10/29/2020 1:47:52 AM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1824
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From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline 		That's very helpful information. I've often wondered that myself.

I am posing a similar-type question pertain to strikes/speed/altitude/flight paths in another thread.

Doug

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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 12/1/2021 7:35:52 PM   
Tcao

 

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Status: offline 		This is interesting. I am wondering if there is any update on this project?

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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 12/2/2021 1:00:25 AM   
rmwilsonjr

 

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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 12/3/2021 11:17:29 AM   
SeaQueen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rory Noonan
Fuel consumption changes with loadout and the fraction of the total loadout weight remaining; so your F-16 will burn more fuel by carrying AAW weapons but the consumption will drop off after firing them.


Usually, for planning purposes, you want to be conservative, so it's better to just assume you fire no weapons at all, since you don't know exactly when you're going to fire them. That way, if you burn less fuel due to improved aerodynamics, you have a little bit extra to work with rather than being forced to cut into your reserve fuel and risk running out of gas on landing.

I know the math geek in all of us wants to account for every little thing, but the truth is, for planning purposes, you really just need a rough estimate.

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RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 12/3/2021 5:04:33 PM   
Tcao

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen
Usually, for planning purposes, you want to be conservative, so it's better to just assume you fire no weapons at all,


Can't agree more. If the loadout configuration says 400nm strike radius, I will not use it to strike a target further than 320nm under normal condition.

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Post #: 18
RE: Convert CAP range to Escort range - 12/21/2021 7:14:56 AM   
jannas34

 

Posts: 76
Joined: 1/9/2020
Status: offline 		Sorry no excuse for bad AI like this in 2021, please add the simple logic range formula instead of basic quadrangle logic

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Post #: 19
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