Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: JPFisher55

IMO, in real life, these stealth aircraft have penetrated modern air defenses on their own using their stealth capabilities....

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The author notes that both F-117 and B-2 aircraft bombed downtown Baghdad without any escort or other pre-mission assistance. However, in CMO these aircraft are not able to reach such targets without sead or fighter escort or assistance.

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ORIGINAL: Eboreg

One of the biggest problems that stealth aircraft face is when they fly near a SAM site that has its radars turned on. The problem with this is that a SAM site that has its radars on all the time is a SAM site that will die very quickly in a salvo of Anti-Radiation missiles. The main reason that stealth aircraft aren't as useful in C:MO as in RL is that SAM sites will almost always have their radars turned on since making an AI-controlled SAM site turn on its radars only when there's an aircraft to shoot at is incredibly difficult and most scenario designers just can't be bothered.

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ORIGINAL: DWReese

At what distance are the F-117s being detected, and by which unit. I have some time, and this topic interests me, so I'll be glad to take a look.

Doug

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ORIGINAL: boogabooga


Also, I'm sure those strikes were carefully planned to stay away from known threats, etc. and didn't just charge in.

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ORIGINAL: JPFisher55
I do know that in CMO my B-2's cannot penetrate Chinese or North Korea without some sead and fighter suport.

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ORIGINAL: DWReese

You need to tell me WHICH SPECIFIC radar units you have present that are ACTUALLY detecting them.

The units carrying external ordinance essentially eliminate the unit from being "stealthy."

Doug

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ORIGINAL: BDukes
Intermittent ok but I build more logic between illuminate and not illuminate decisions, especially against more modern combatants. Flicking the light on and off at fixed intervals isn't random once the pattern is learn.

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ORIGINAL: JPFisher55

When I wrote "assistance," I was referring to sead or fighter support, not tanker, sorry. The one F-117 lost over Serbia was due to mechanical issues according to the official Pentagon report. I'm not sure that SAM radar, or other search radar, can detect stealth aircraft as easily as they do in CMO. F-117's dropped bombs over Baghdad without being detected in the Persian Gulf War. B-2's and F-117's did the same in the 2003 Iraq Freedom War. Maybe the Iraq air defense was poorly operated? I guess the truth is not known. I do know that in CMO my B-2's cannot penetrate Chinese or North Korea without some sead and fighter suport.

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ORIGINAL: thewood1

My understanding has always been that F-117 aren't undetectable, but have a radar return that is small enough to be filtered out both electronically and by human decision-making. And then, even if you know something is there, it can be difficult to get a fire control lock.

In Serbia, it wasn't mechanical failure. It was a combination of planners getting lazy or complacent and a smart Serbian officer who paid attention. He had his search radar set to its lowest freq. setting and had received human intel a strike was inbound along the same track NATO always used. He knew exactly where to look and the search radar picked up enough of a return to manually track the returns with the FCR. So when the F-117 opened its bay doors, the FCR had enough of a signal to fire. Two missiles fired as the bay doors closed and the 117 banked away. The first missile couldn't track, but the second guided enough to hit.

That is from Osprey's Air Vanguard 16 and Combat Aircraft 24

In those accounts there is discussion about radars and how long they stayed energized. The Serbians felt that 20 sec. was the longest you could leave a radar active without getting a HARM down your throat. But they had human intelligence tracking flights and consistent flight paths. So they could easily time when to turn radars on. There was no intermittent schedule for turning radars on.

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ORIGINAL: DWReese

I conducted a little test tonight. I only used the B-2 for now, and I pitted it against various Russian and Chinese radar units.

Basically, the radar units start to get a whiff of the B-2 a around 40 nm. They will then go long periods of time (minutes) without getting any more updates.

If you attach an OECM unit to fly with the B-2, then the enemy doesn't start to get a whiff of the B-2 until about 30 nm out.

At around 20 nm, the radar unit should have an accurate bearing, altitude and speed of the B-2.

The biggest threat seems to be if SAMs (with cameras) are present.

The SAM cameras can identify the plane, first as a bomber, and later as a B-2.

If the SAM camera isn't present, then the radar will likely get a bearing, altitude, and range, but it will be intermittent.

The various SAM units have very little chance of getting a shot off, especially if the OECM plane is present, unless they are able to do so using the camera for guidance. Otherwise, it constantly states that it can't illuminate the target.

I did not use any S-400 or S-300 systems. I wanted to keep it very simple.

If the SAM can ever get a fix on the B-2, which really means if it can get close enough to track with the camera, then it will fire.

The the SAM units fire, then the plane is as dead as any other plane. The stealth advantage is gone.

Depending on the radar, you can fly around it or under it in some cases, and that should be enough to keep the SAMs from being able to fire. As I said, it isn't so much the radar as it is the camera on the SAMs that does the work. But, the SAMs wouldn't be activating their camera if the radar unit didn't first get a whiff of the plane.

Tactical maneuvering, and longer-ranged ASM can possible keep the B-2 from being shot at.

As the B-2 turns for home, after it has delivered its ordinance, it is the most identifiable. Rather than conducting the paperclip U-turn, it seems that it is better for the B-2 to continue to fly straight over the target, and get further away from the enemy radars and SAMs before turning for home. The radars are very good when an aspect change is made. So, the B-2 should change course only after it is a distance away.

Doug