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Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/24/2020 12:21:25 AM

pbrowne

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I have been looking at the Israeli Operation Yonatan/Thunderbolt to rescue the hostages at Entebbe Airport in 1977. Is CMO able to model such a scenario? Would it be worthwhile?

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/24/2020 12:41:48 AM

stww2

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You could probably model it, I'm just not sure what the point would be. Ground combat is not exactly CMO's strong suit; all the player would really be doing is landing a C-130 at an airport (presumably the commandos would be unloaded via LUA), attacking some infantry squads (not sure how you would model units in buildings-maybe a special action to have a nearby squad clear it?), defeating the Ugandan reinforcements, getting back in the C-130, and flying away. Given the absence of any sort of anti-air or air threat, I'm not really sure it would be that entertaining for the player. Sounds like a scenario that would be better done in Arma 3. But ultimately that's just my opinion-maybe others think differently?

If you are looking for other hostage rescue scenarios in Command, you might want to check out M Gellis's "Leathernecks are Watching," in the Community Scenario Pack. That one probably has the right combination of threats and logistical challenges to work better in CMO than a hypothetical Entebbe scenario. I guess "Act of War" also qualifies as a hostage rescue scenario, technically.

I don't think there are any scenarios modeling it, but Operation Eagle Claw could be an interesting one to attempt to build/play.

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Post #: 2

RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/24/2020 3:15:56 AM

Fido81

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I haven't seen Operation Thunderbolt modeled, but you probably could do it.

The only hostage rescue scenario I've played and enjoyed is Operation Scot Free (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2013412975). I have yet to try Leathernecks are Watching or Act of War. I think Operation Scot Free works in a way I'm not so confident Operation Thunderbolt would because it requires the player to coordinate dissimilar units in order to be successful. The Operation Thunderbolt OOB wasn't diverse in the same way the Operation Scot Free OOB is, but the mission in Uganda was more broad in scope - rescue hostages, destroy airplanes on the ground on the ground, and fight off a Ugandan counterattack while some of the airplanes refuel.

If you implement it and it works well enough to become a scenario, I'd be interested in playing it.

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/24/2020 1:29:04 PM

Gunner98

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A hostage rescue is a small element in one of the scenarios I have testing. Caribbean Fury #3 Rumble in the Jungle: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4880838

A similar type mission but more complex is a key feature in Caribbean Fury #2 where a SOF team needs to get into Castro's residence, extract information and captives and then get out all while there is a bunch of other stuff happening and a Mech Infantry Bn heading your way. Also in Med Fury #5 you need to insert SOF on a damaged ship etc.

The events & triggers for this sort of mission are relatively straight forward and there is minimal Lua coding involved, you could probably do it without lua. The real trick I think it to make it interesting for the player. The ground side of the mission will only be a minor point, reconnaissance, planning the air approach, avoiding threats, collateral damage concerns etc should be the focus I think. Too add tension, there should be a reaction to the mission, and this is where Lua comes in, pop in a few Technical speeding toward the rescue point and your player will need to take note.

These are fun little vignettes, I think they are probably better as a part of a larger scenario but you could make a stand alone hostage rescue interesting I think, remembering that the land bit has to be minor.

B

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/25/2020 9:51:35 AM

KnightHawk75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fido81
I have yet to try Leathernecks are Watching

Interesting you mention that one..
I have a modded early beta of that one in june, as I thought it might need more to do, while you do the primary, so I added a tweeting hikers on the run from rebels side-resuce-mission too it.

quote:

Too add tension, there should be a reaction to the mission, and this is where Lua comes in, pop in a few Technical speeding toward the rescue point and your player will need to take note.

and that too...though you don't necessarily have to pop them in with lua, but that's always an good option for even more surprise.

Hiker stuff starts in the morning hours if you just want to x15 to 8 something am.
Easy to make it tougher on yourself if you just copy and paste some more technicals in the hills areas and assign them to the existing mission. Definitely a bunch of events involved and some amount of lua, but most of that is around managing the events and all the possible orders of events and timing that could happen which is where some complexity can come in with this things.

Was just a demo\proof of concept for the original author to toy around with if they wanted (ultimately not, and that's totally cool by me, I got 1 game bug squished and 2 lua enhancements added to the game out of the effort, so a win for everyone). All the disabled Special actions's on US side can be ignored if looking around, they were for testing and pre-publishing. Anyway I'll attach it incase some of the code snippets might be of use to someone if nothing else if doing similar sort of thing, but by all means if just looking to play, then play the authors published one.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by KnightHawk75 -- 10/25/2020 9:52:28 AM >

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/25/2020 12:38:09 PM

Roby7979

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it is a very interesting concept and can be used for multiple tasks

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/25/2020 2:34:48 PM

ParachuteProne

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So I placed 4 sides, Good guys,Bad guys, Terrorists and Hostages.

Good Guys (player) are
Friendly to Hostages
Unfriendly to Bad guys (So they don't automatically open fire - (this side would be like the Ugandan army in Entebbe raid))
Unfriendly to Terrorists(so player can decide when to fire on them making them hostile)

Bad guys are
Friendly to terrorists (If player fires on terrorists bad guys become hostile)
Hostile to good guys (Player has to avoid them until player fires on terrorists)
unfriendly to hostages (don't want them to engage hostages until they are hostile)

Terrorists are
unfriendly to hostages (Don't want them to fire on them until hostages are hostile)
unfriendly to good guys (This allows player the opportunity to open fire first.)
Friendly to Bad guys (once bad guys are engaged their enemy become hostile to good guys and hostage)

Hostages are
unfriendly to terrorists
unfriendly to bad guys
neutral to good guys.

I have two questions. I'm not sure I understand how postures fully work.
If I fire on a side that is unfriendly to me making it hostile will that make another side that is friendly to the now hostile side become hostile to me ?
If not none of what I'm trying to do will work. (At least not without Lua - which I avoid :)

and two, I placed a unit unfriendly from my posture but I am hostile from their point of view.
They do not fire on me when in range. Is something not working ?

Thanks

< Message edited by ParachuteProne -- 10/25/2020 2:49:03 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/25/2020 4:03:00 PM

BeirutDude

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quote:

I have two questions. I'm not sure I understand how postures fully work.
If I fire on a side that is unfriendly to me making it hostile will that make another side that is friendly to the now hostile side become hostile to me ?
If not none of what I'm trying to do will work. (At least not without Lua - which I avoid :)

Shouldn't each "side's" posture is independent. Also if you uncheck "Collective responsibility" it is possible for a side to make an individual unit as hostile but not the others. That is good for low intensity events.

quote:

and two, I placed a unit unfriendly from my posture but I am hostile from their point of view.
They do not fire on me when in range. Is something not working ?

Yes and No, it is possible for a side to be unfriendly to you and you can be neutral to it, so it is how the side is set but there are conditions to that. It's Hostile that is the main trigger that changes the other's sides posture because once you are hostile to some one, if "Collective Responsibility" is checked they will become completely hostile to you when the first shot is fired. Now if it is not checked it is possible to fire on one unit and not have the others change posture. For example Side A has 4 aircraft flying toward an exclusion zone which sets any unit entering as hostile and "Collective Responsibility" is NOT checked. Two aircraft enter the exclusion zone and two do not. The two entering will become hostile, but the two outside it stay at their previous posture.

< Message edited by BeirutDude -- 10/25/2020 4:11:55 PM >

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/25/2020 4:18:44 PM

BeirutDude

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quote:

If I fire on a side that is unfriendly to me making it hostile will that make another side that is friendly to the now hostile side become hostile to me ?

So an example might be helpful, "Collective Responsibility" is on.

1. Israel and Syria are both unfriendly toward each other.
2. Russian has units in Syria and is Neutral toward Israel and Friendly toward Syria.
3. Syria and Russia share information and can see each other's units.
4. Israel launches missiles at a Syrian SAM site, and avoids firing on any Russian units.
5. Syria becomes hostile to Israel and Russia remains neutral.

Hope that helps?

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/25/2020 4:59:28 PM

KnightHawk75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ParachuteProne

So I placed 4 sides, Good guys,Bad guys, Terrorists and Hostages.

Good Guys (player) are
Friendly to Hostages
Unfriendly to Bad guys (So they don't automatically open fire - (this side would be like the Ugandan army in Entebbe raid))
Unfriendly to Terrorists(so player can decide when to fire on them making them hostile)

Bad guys are
Friendly to terrorists (If player fires on terrorists bad guys become hostile)
Hostile to good guys (Player has to avoid them until player fires on terrorists)
unfriendly to hostages (don't want them to engage hostages until they are hostile)

Terrorists are
unfriendly to hostages (Don't want them to fire on them until hostages are hostile)
unfriendly to good guys (This allows player the opportunity to open fire first.)
Friendly to Bad guys (once bad guys are engaged their enemy become hostile to good guys and hostage)

Hostages are
unfriendly to terrorists
unfriendly to bad guys
friendly to good guys.

I have two questions. I'm not sure I understand how postures fully work.
If I fire on a side that is unfriendly to me making it hostile will that make another side that is friendly to the now hostile side become hostile to me ?
If not none of what I'm trying to do will work. (At least not without Lua - which I avoid :)

and two, I placed a unit unfriendly from my posture but I am hostile from their point of view.
They do not fire on me when in range. Is something not working ?

Thanks

On the second. Hmm, that is odd. Is WRA or doctrine on the unit, mission or group preventing it perhaps?

On the first, it can get complicated, but the contact on the side that fired will be marked hostile by the allied (assuming they are allied ie.. joint friends). You as a side will not be flagged hostile though if the third party considered you neutral before. If you were considered unfriendly by the third party before...yes they will pop hostile on you then.

It can even even more complicated but I'm going to cop out on typing up all the possible combo's of situations (and collective combos added in) and results, not to mention sometimes interesting things happening with 'contacts' acquired by a particular side before multiple changes is posture that go from no info sharing or one-way sharing to 2-way sharing.

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/25/2020 5:20:50 PM

thewood1

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OK. Still following me around I see.

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/25/2020 5:52:01 PM

ParachuteProne

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Awesome ! Thanks guys , will give these suggestions a try .

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/25/2020 7:34:52 PM

KnightHawk75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

OK. Still following me around I see.

huh

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Post #: 13

RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/25/2020 10:04:47 PM

pbrowne

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From: Perth, Western Australia
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Wow, I thought this might end in being a dud thread. I'm glad it has promoted this good discussion.

Drinking my coffee at 5:30 am, I thought another type of scenario might be crew down (sorry if this is already covered here...). Like Black Hawk down, especially in a volatile country like Somalia (was/is) or Ukraine at that time with competing factions, Russian air and AA/SAM etc (think Malaysian Airlines MH17). Could be a UN mission. The crew might be carrying a VIP as part of a SOF mission. Or a targeted hit on an aircraft carry a political opposition leader who is indicated to have survived the crash (distress beacon) and needs to be recovered before the baddies find him. Lots of possibilities for multiple relatively complex scenarios along an evolving theme (DLC?).

Peter

< Message edited by pbrowne -- 10/26/2020 1:07:17 AM >

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/25/2020 11:17:10 PM

thewood1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightHawk75

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

OK. Still following me around I see.

huh

Wrong thread...sorry for the angst.

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/26/2020 1:00:12 AM

KnightHawk75

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No worries, was just confused.

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/26/2020 2:09:56 AM

thewood1

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Me too.

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/26/2020 12:41:27 PM

SeaQueen

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From: Washington D.C.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pbrowne
I have been looking at the Israeli Operation Yonatan/Thunderbolt to rescue the hostages at Entebbe Airport in 1977. Is CMO able to model such a scenario? Would it be worthwhile?

Could you model it? Yes.

Would it be worthwhile? Probably not. The real substance of that was the ground battle, which isn't really CMO's forte, and the kind of ground combat CMO does do is larger scale than that. It's really not interesting until you put at least a battalion level force out there, and even that is small.

That being said, I think that SOF/DA sorts of scenarios are actually really great, but in order to make them fun, you have to include the CONVENTIONAL operation surrounding the special operation. While the SOF guys may be the supported unit (and are essential to some very specifically written victory condition), the conventional forces supporting them end up being the bulk of a CMO scenario.

For example: Imagine a scenario where a scientist working in a secret chemical weapons lab wants to defect. In exchange for help escaping the repressive regime the scientist offers critical information on the state of their weapons program. Working through its intelligence services, the US government agrees to extract him. US Army Delta Force gets the job.

The scientist in this case is just cargo to be loaded on some kind of SOF aviation, probably something from 160th SOAR. The Delta Force units are likely to all die if this thing goes badly. They're really just the endgame (there's your main victory condition).

Before you can move their aircraft in there, you need to be able to provide them with SA. That suggests E-3s, Rivet Joint, maybe JSTARs, and drones. In order for those to fly, you need to have at least local air superiority, that suggests Raptors or Eagles. There may be some form of non-kinetic SEAD going on with jamming aircraft. Once the bad guys figure out what's going on, and the SOF guys start looking for the scientist (he's hiding under a desk in the conference room), they're going to send some conventional QRF to go and kick the SOF dude's asses, and recapture their scientist. That means you might want to have a bunch of Marines set up blocking positions to at least delay the bad guy QRF. Both the SOF and the conventional forces may require CAS. That would suggest skids, Harriers, A-10s, AC-130s and maybe other stuff.

See how this goes? For the special operation to be successful, there's a whole conventional operation surrounding it. Btw, that this point you just started a war, so whatever this scientist has better be REALLY REALLY GOOD.

That's the sort of special operation that CMO does well, though. It's not the SOF that you spend all your effort worrying about, they just sort of spike the football. It's all the supporting operations surrounding them.

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/26/2020 10:12:58 PM

BeirutDude

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Me three!

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/27/2020 6:56:20 PM

SeaQueen

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CSAR/TRAP is another good (and rarely done) scenario for CMO. Who wouldn't want to put the Jollies and Sandies to work? They go and do great things. It's kind of a hard scenario to build, though. To do it well you need to have a really good sense of how the mission works. There's a lot of moving pieces to it. First you've got to find the downed crew. Then you've got to establish and maintain local air superiority, before you can move the Jollies in. When you move the Jollies in, you've got to be able to suppress the ground fires directed at them and the downed crew member. You probably also want to drop a bomb on the aircraft wreckage so that all the secret stuff is destroyed. After that, you've got to move everyone safely out of the area, without making the situation worse by losing MORE aircraft.

The CSAR/TRAP mission is interesting, it's a trap. Something has already been lost in the trap, and your job is to go back into the trap and come back out again unscathed. Sound challenging enough?

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbrowne

Wow, I thought this might end in being a dud thread. I'm glad it has promoted this good discussion.

Drinking my coffee at 5:30 am, I thought another type of scenario might be crew down (sorry if this is already covered here...). Like Black Hawk down, especially in a volatile country like Somalia (was/is) or Ukraine at that time with competing factions, Russian air and AA/SAM etc (think Malaysian Airlines MH17). Could be a UN mission. The crew might be carrying a VIP as part of a SOF mission. Or a targeted hit on an aircraft carry a political opposition leader who is indicated to have survived the crash (distress beacon) and needs to be recovered before the baddies find him. Lots of possibilities for multiple relatively complex scenarios along an evolving theme (DLC?).

Peter

(in reply to pbrowne)

Post #: 20

RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/28/2020 12:55:38 AM

pbrowne

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SeaQueen, that does sound what I'm looking for. Very interesting, thanks for the heads up. Had to Google the terms Sandies (Douglas A-1 Skyraider) and Jollies (Sikorsky HH-3E), which are probably unique to US forces.

Being a Sandgroper, those terms conjurer up curious images around North Swanbourne Beach

There is a scenario in the CMO community pack titled Sandies and Jollies, 1968 developed by Kushan, so I will have a look at that.

Peter

< Message edited by pbrowne -- 10/28/2020 6:12:20 AM >

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/28/2020 9:34:15 PM

SeaQueen

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These days the "Sandy" mission is performed by A-10s and the "Jolly" mission is performed by HH-60s and CV-22s. On the Navy side their MH-60S would perform a similar role with F-35s and F/A-18s providing escort and suppression. For the Marines it'd be MV-22s UH-1s or CH-53s, with F-35B, AV-8, AH-1s and UH-1s providing escort and suppression. Marines don't search. There's potentially other aircraft involved as well. MC-130 also provides gas for CSAR birds.

< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 10/31/2020 3:09:07 PM >

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/28/2020 10:59:54 PM

SeaQueen

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Here's some links to give you a flavor of the A-10's role in this sort of thing:

The Unknown Story of an A-10 Sandy Mission

Call in the A-10

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/29/2020 12:16:50 AM

Gunner98

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I was in Kabul during this event as the lead mentoring to the Afghan Army HQ JOC. We were trying to get some sort of ground force their ASAP but they were at least 3 hours away, turned out to be about 5hrs. After the aircrew were recovered, the Italians got on the ground first to secure the crash site, we were actually happier about that. Lifted the Mirage out with a German CH-53 I think

The Mirage looked like it had done a perfect landing, no damage apparent from the air, very strange.

One of the more interesting days.

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RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 10/31/2020 2:46:24 PM

SeaQueen

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Awesome story! Would the ground forces have moved by ground or by air? (I'm trying to build a scenario, btw)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

I was in Kabul during this event as the lead mentoring to the Afghan Army HQ JOC. We were trying to get some sort of ground force their ASAP but they were at least 3 hours away, turned out to be about 5hrs. After the aircrew were recovered, the Italians got on the ground first to secure the crash site, we were actually happier about that. Lifted the Mirage out with a German CH-53 I think

The Mirage looked like it had done a perfect landing, no damage apparent from the air, very strange.

One of the more interesting days.

(in reply to Gunner98)

Post #: 25

RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 11/1/2020 7:10:27 PM

Gunner98

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The Mirage landed in RC west, near the border of Farah province and Nimruz which is in RC South West. The US were in charge of RC SW which is why the A-10s were so close. The Italians had RC W and had a FOB with a Quick Reaction Force in Farah city.

The QRF deployed by helicopter (platoon +) with a larger force linking up by vehicle, I cannot recall but probably a company sized element.

The ANA deployed a Kandak (Bn size) with Italian mentors, they arrived by truck.

I cannot recall the timeline exactly but the C-SAR happened within an hour, probably closer to 30 min. If I recall they came out of Bastion (near Lashkar Gah) in Helmand province. Once the aircrew were picked up the next factor was the AC itself, Afghans are resourceful people and left on its own that Mirage would have been picked clean in days with parts fixing every truck, tractor, power winch and roof in the area. The locals weren't really a threat to the aircrew, or at least we didn't think so, but we never took chances.

If I recall there were about 1-200 locals gathered by the time the Italian QRF arrived. There were local police (ANP) but in that part of the country, we weren't counting on them. I think the Italian QRF arrived within 2 hours, probably 90 min. The vehicle link up happened after dark so probably close to 3-4 hours and the Afghan Kandak arrives shortly afterwards, about 5 hours was what I recall the brief saying. I had gone off shift by then.

I remember the CH-53 flew in from Mazari Sharif (RC N). The US, Brits, Dutch and Cdns had Chinooks at Kandahar and Bastion but the decision was made to use the CH-53, probably a weight issue. It was at least 2-3 days before they picked up the Mirage. We were losing a helicopter a week or more that summer so the Chinooks were very busy.

I look forward to the scenario btw!

< Message edited by Gunner98 -- 11/1/2020 7:11:11 PM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Hostage - Commando scenarios? - 11/1/2020 9:01:52 PM

SeaQueen

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It's very rough at this point. Who knows if it'll see the light of day? I'm just trying to find a spot to put the pilot so that the jollies will pick 'em up and not just make a pass and circle.