RE: Italy Surrenders Too Easy

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RE: Italy Surrenders Too Easy - 10/18/2020 7:04:05 PM

battlevonwar

Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
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Certainly hard to make it a streamline experience where your wits, tactics win not say an inherent weakness in one side or another that is more of an exploited flaw. Perhaps drawing of 25 Italian Medium Sized Divisions and 7 German Divisions, 8 German Corps, 2-3 German Armor, 2-3-4 German Tactical Air off to Italy is Fair? This would free up what the Soviets have to face by let me use a very rough guess. If a guy builds 12 Armor for the Eastern Front and Needs at least 1 or 2 in France about 8 left for Russia, 25% of the air and 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 Corps to fight the British? That's a lot in '41 or '42. Especially a nation that has to cover so many ports.

I think that the real issue would be that that would be realistic by 1943, when the USA was mobilized and the British were supplied by the Americans and the production was in full gear... But in our game the Russians have to be strong enough to fight back or lose the entire game for the Allies. It's already proven that the Russians can do pretty good at that without such a vacuum of forces? Or not, I suppose is the question. If they can, then the changes are good and amphibious invasions will definitely be more difficult. If not near impossible. U-boats will be a threat giving more versatility and tactical options for the Axis and more Issues for the Allies to deal with.

Will the game find balance? I don't know... Up to people playing it, Allies will have real issues invading Europe in '42? Though it doesn't appear properly played Russians(see my game vs MM) have an issue holding on through '43 as it is.

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 10/18/2020 7:06:35 PM >

(in reply to MagicMissile)

Post #: 31

RE: Italy Surrenders Too Easy - 10/18/2020 9:10:27 PM

MagicMissile

Posts: 1629
Joined: 10/11/2014
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline

I think the game is fairly balanced right now. I had the feeling of disaster the summer of 42 in the east and I did not see any way to invade Italy in 42 or 43. You felt you didnt do good enough and situation was bad. Isn�t that a sign of balance when both players think things are going badly and the situation is desperate?

I like the changes to landing craft as well but I still wonder how the allies will mount a successful invasion against a properly garrisoned Italy and France. So even though Spain will join the Axis if Portugal gets attacked I think this might still be the route to go for the Allies. And for the Germans the chance for Sea Lion is basically gone I would say maybe ok since the odds of that happening in real life was really low.

/MM

(in reply to battlevonwar)

Post #: 32

RE: Italy Surrenders Too Easy - 10/18/2020 9:33:36 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000
Regio Esercito - The Royal Army
Educated guess, about 25 Divisions or so - Note: Italian Div were usually set up differently and reorganization did occur somewhat during the war.

War Outbreak: 73 div (only 20 were fully manned & equipped) Div were 2 inf Reg + 1 Art usually (smaller than other countries)

During War: 36 Div had occupational Duties (Balkans, South France, Corsica,etc)
8th Army (12 ) Divisions - USSR Eastern Front Duties

I think my concern was seeing about 19 corps for the ideal early-war defense. 19 single-division corps maybe, and perhaps that�s the case. It still strikes me as too much. This is the thing with division-level grand strategy game, too much detail is distracting. But WarPlan attempts to be a sim, so interesting to see how it evolves.

(in reply to ago1000)

Post #: 33

RE: Italy Surrenders Too Easy - 10/18/2020 11:45:26 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

As the Axis how to defend each theater is a balance each player has to make depending on how strong the Allies are.

If you over commit in 1943 to defending Italy the Russians can overrun you.
If you under commit in 1943 to defending Italy the Allies can take you out.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 34

RE: Italy Surrenders Too Easy - 10/19/2020 3:45:05 AM

Harrybanana

Posts: 4097
Joined: 11/27/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Currently in the beta I am working on I set Italin break point to ZERO until Tripoli is taken and the USA is in the war. Then it becomes 56.

Since it seems the game has a slight Allied leaning I made small changes to make less cost effective some gimmicky play and for balance.

Like MMs now take 10 shipyards instead of 5. I did some more research. This should reduce landing ship building and encourage sub building. Sub building now not only sinks production but also abstractly prevents invasions as shipyards are used for MMs more often.

Also landing ships are going up from 15 to 25 PP in cost.

I like your idea for Italy surrender Alavro, thank you. I also appreciate that you are increasing the cost of landing ships. Any chance I could convince you that the cost should be at least 30 and preferably in the 40 to 60 range?

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 35

RE: Italy Surrenders Too Easy - 10/21/2020 6:31:01 AM

battlevonwar

Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline

Hard to say, I may have made errors along the way that lead to you having a strong lead on me in different Theaters. For instance my Barbarossa was underwhelming, I built too much air and I lost 3 Armor between 1940 and 1942... That's just it though, the Axis cannot afford these errors and along with invading North Africa that was a huge fiasco where I executed at least 50-75 Axis Air Step for No return at all since with 6 AA Gibraltar is impossible to take with an Infantry Corp, maybe an Armor would of succeeded? I don't know if I would want to risk that?

There was some balance and had you fought me in Russia it could of been very costly(be nice if there was more value in Western Russia)... There was even an oilfield in Eastern Poland not in game. You really had a lot more units overall by '43. I think even if I had saved 4-5 more armor and maybe built 3-4 for less Air in the place of 3-4 more Land Corp I may have just been able to squeeze out something.

Without an Invasion Platform for the Allies by '43-'44 there could be issues. Since the Axis never have to relent against the Russians. Though there are some pretty defensible parts of the USSR also that really can never be taken(so long as those super Infantry Armies and Russian Armor are still there). We are also far more experienced than most players in the game. I got like 15-20 games as do you in MP. Most don't and most haven't played for near a year. So it's a different ballgame. Our game was relatively close if I was more Micro...(of course Italy should still not in my opinion require 500,000 men to keep it from throwing in the towel, heck give it half it's forces back with the North Italian Fascist side) that way you don't feel like you are tossing in the towel if you don't cover it from head to toe

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

I think the game is fairly balanced right now. I had the feeling of disaster the summer of 42 in the east and I did not see any way to invade Italy in 42 or 43. You felt you didnt do good enough and situation was bad. Isn�t that a sign of balance when both players think things are going badly and the situation is desperate?

I like the changes to landing craft as well but I still wonder how the allies will mount a successful invasion against a properly garrisoned Italy and France. So even though Spain will join the Axis if Portugal gets attacked I think this might still be the route to go for the Allies. And for the Germans the chance for Sea Lion is basically gone I would say maybe ok since the odds of that happening in real life was really low.

/MM

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 10/21/2020 6:33:19 AM >

(in reply to MagicMissile)

Post #: 36

RE: Italy Surrenders Too Easy - 10/21/2020 8:47:48 AM

MagicMissile

Posts: 1629
Joined: 10/11/2014
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline

Yes it is very hard to tell with balance for sure so many factors involved but my feeling is that balance is pretty good but I might be wrong

. In our game you made mistakes but so did I (mostly my handling of the Red airforce) and it is really hard to know if I managed to win because of your mistakes or because of inherent balance issues. One probably needs to play like 10 games against the same opponent then one can get a feeling if the game is balanced or not.

I am a bit afraid for the allies and their ability to actually invade into Europe. Africa will always fall and probably quite a lot earlier than historical but after that... I think WP2 should consider the ability to build a mulberry harbour think it might be needed actually. We will have to see a couple of games to know I guess.

/MM

(in reply to battlevonwar)

Post #: 37

RE: Italy Surrenders Too Easy - 10/21/2020 2:29:01 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

I believe the game slightly favors the Allies.

So I make slight adjustments as we go. The latest beta slightly moves the needle in the Axis direction. There are a lot of changes but they are minor over the long run. While the Allies had all the resources in the world shipping them overseas was still a challenge.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to MagicMissile)

Post #: 38

RE: Italy Surrenders Too Easy - 10/24/2020 10:35:57 AM

MVokt

Posts: 95
Joined: 7/1/2018
Status: offline

All countries in WW2 had a territorial army. E.g. Italy had the so called "Corpo Territoriale". These units WEREN'T corps sized units despite the name. What I mean is that garrison duties cannot be assumed by operational and campaign units. In the case of Italian army, a possible landing in mainland Italy in early was not the main concern of Italian military seniors.

So if in the game is needed to use the core of Italian army for adequately defending against a possible anglo-french landing operation(!) in 1940, then clearly something is wrong from the point of view of a strategic simulation.

< Message edited by MVokt -- 10/24/2020 10:37:26 AM >

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 39