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Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/4/2020 9:12:15 PM   
DD696

 

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Since it was announced that beta players are wanted for a new WWII game a lot of the regulars here seem to have flown the coop. Where have they gone? Did they try to cross the road and were run over? Hopefully, maybe some.

Rest good, Joe, I won't reveal the secret even tho I did not sign an NDA many years ago. I hope this turns out spectacularly. I await anxiously for the new reveal - just don't set off fireworks and burn down lots of this country. I sure hate the word "reveal" in these days of revealing baby genders and what flavor edible undies some bimbo is wearing.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/5/2020 1:07:17 AM   
rsallen64


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Hey, we're all still here. I am more of a lurker and don't sign on that often, but I check the forum every single day. Also, I think many people are busy with other things going on right now. You might have seen some things on the news lately.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/5/2020 1:24:26 AM   
fcooke

 

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So DD, I am curious why a Jarhead would take an ID as a Navy DD. Just curious if you are willing to share

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/5/2020 1:58:38 AM   
RangerJoe


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Why would someone admit to being a DAT?

As far as a jarhead taking a Navy DD as a name, jarheads are Naval Infantry.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/5/2020 4:43:20 AM   
Nomad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

So DD, I am curious why a Jarhead would take an ID as a Navy DD. Just curious if you are willing to share


It would be because it was the ship his father was on DD-696 the USS English

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/5/2020 6:42:57 AM   
jdsrae


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

Also, I think many people are busy with other things going on right now.
You might have seen some things on the news lately.


I wouldn’t have thought the 2nd round of the Paris Masters was that interesting.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/5/2020 1:00:46 PM   
fcooke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

So DD, I am curious why a Jarhead would take an ID as a Navy DD. Just curious if you are willing to share


It would be because it was the ship his father was on DD-696 the USS English

Thanks Nomad, I did not know that.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/5/2020 1:07:26 PM   
fcooke

 

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But having an English and England in the Navy at the same time - confusing. Also reminds me that Oz was not thrilled that the US put the USS Canberra into service and IIRC there was some agreement between the Allies not to have same named ships and it meant OZ could not have their own Canberra.

Now whether the older Canberra was actually torped by an American ship is a longer conversation.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/5/2020 3:32:24 PM   
Kriegsspieler

 

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So I can't resist asking -- what is the new WWII game that DD696 is alluding to? Are we talking about the new WitE, or something else? If it's hidden behind an NDA for its betas, ok, but I just thought I would ask?

It couldn't be a new version of THIS game could it? That would be so cool, but also SO improbable! Why do that when you can issue another dlc for something like Order of Battle or Panzer Corps? Sorry -- don't mean to toss around insults here. It's just that WitE comes from such a different universe of wargaming.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/5/2020 3:50:24 PM   
tolsdorff

 

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I thought many of the good old bunch were driven away actually by inflammatory topics. Part of the good old bunch being the target of the inflammatory part that is . They choose the respectful way out, instead of mind-lessingly insulting back.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/5/2020 7:07:00 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

But having an English and England in the Navy at the same time - confusing. Also reminds me that Oz was not thrilled that the US put the USS Canberra into service and IIRC there was some agreement between the Allies not to have same named ships and it meant OZ could not have their own Canberra.

Now whether the older Canberra was actually torped by an American ship is a longer conversation.

No conversation - the torpedoes worked so they must have been Japanese!

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/5/2020 8:33:42 PM   
fcooke

 

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fair point BB. but sometimes USN torps did actually explode......generally when they came from S boats or 4 pipers.....

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/6/2020 3:22:44 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler

So I can't resist asking -- what is the new WWII game that DD696 is alluding to? Are we talking about the new WitE, or something else? If it's hidden behind an NDA for its betas, ok, but I just thought I would ask?

It couldn't be a new version of THIS game could it? That would be so cool, but also SO improbable! Why do that when you can issue another dlc for something like Order of Battle or Panzer Corps? Sorry -- don't mean to toss around insults here. It's just that WitE comes from such a different universe of wargaming.

Kreig,

There was a posting in the forum here back a ways looking for beta testers ... from Joe Wilkerson ...

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/6/2020 3:41:05 AM   
Nomad


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Actually it was by wdolson here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4876155

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/6/2020 1:19:47 PM   
Kriegsspieler

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kriegsspieler

So I can't resist asking -- what is the new WWII game that DD696 is alluding to? Are we talking about the new WitE, or something else? If it's hidden behind an NDA for its betas, ok, but I just thought I would ask?

It couldn't be a new version of THIS game could it? That would be so cool, but also SO improbable! Why do that when you can issue another dlc for something like Order of Battle or Panzer Corps? Sorry -- don't mean to toss around insults here. It's just that WitE comes from such a different universe of wargaming.

Kreig,

There was a posting in the forum here back a ways looking for beta testers ... from Joe Wilkerson ...

Thanks, Pax. Good to see that you're alive and well.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/6/2020 1:28:49 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

fair point BB. but sometimes USN torps did actually explode......generally when they came from S boats or 4 pipers.....


No, the 4 pipers fired the Mark 15s which also had their own problems. Although four of them did a number on the Balikpapen invasion force and got away. Most of those torpedoes also ran too deep.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/6/2020 3:55:14 PM   
fcooke

 

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For some reason in my head the 4 pipers early war were using MK 8, but something older than 15s. But they did do a good job at Balikpapen. Of course the IJN helped them out by torping some of their own ships.

The other interesting thing is that the USN kept using the 15 well into the 50s, maybe even the 60s. I stopped the the sub museum in Groton Conn, earlier this year and they had a 15 on display. They also have the USS Nautilus, so if you are in the neighborhood not a bad way to spend a couple of hours. If it is a clear day you might even spy some of the USN SSNs at their base upriver. Then you can spend a couple of more at Mystic seaport, particularly if you have any interest in whaling history. And if you happen to be heading towards Boston or Cape Cod you hit Fall river. The USS Massachusetts is there, a couple of PT boats, a WW2 DD (I want to say the Kennedy), and a former Warsaw Pact missile attack ship. And of course, if you are headed to Boston there is the USS Constitution to explore.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/6/2020 4:04:33 PM   
Nomad


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Basically the Mk-15 and Mk-14 were very similar, designed at the same time. They both had the same exploder and both ran deeper that set.
As the Mk-14 deficiencies were corrected, the Mk-15 ones were too. The Mk-15 was not a bad torpedo when it problems were fixed.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/6/2020 6:13:29 PM   
RangerJoe


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The Mark 8 was the first torpedo used by the PT Boats but they had explosive charges to send them on their way. Nothing to keep a secret like a big flash on a dark night. Later, they used a Mark 13 torpedo rolled over the side.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/7/2020 7:57:26 AM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696

Since it was announced that beta players are wanted for a new WWII game a lot of the regulars here seem to have flown the coop. Where have they gone? Did they try to cross the road and were run over? Hopefully, maybe some.

Rest good, Joe, I won't reveal the secret even tho I did not sign an NDA many years ago. I hope this turns out spectacularly. I await anxiously for the new reveal - just don't set off fireworks and burn down lots of this country. I sure hate the word "reveal" in these days of revealing baby genders and what flavor edible undies some bimbo is wearing.


We'll just have to wait for Xmas. Not sure what year though.


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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/7/2020 7:59:55 AM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

fair point BB. but sometimes USN torps did actually explode......generally when they came from S boats or 4 pipers.....


No, the 4 pipers fired the Mark 15s which also had their own problems. Although four of them did a number on the Balikpapen invasion force and got away. Most of those torpedoes also ran too deep.

The Clemson and Wickes classes started the war equipped with Mark 8 torpedoes and those involved in the early '42 actions in the DEI (Balikpapan, Badoeing Strait, Java Sea) only used that torpedo type. Regardless of what the game has them carrying, I can't recall off hand seeing historical accounts showing these two destroyer classes ever being equipped with the longer Mark 15 torpedo during the war.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/7/2020 1:14:29 PM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Basically the Mk-15 and Mk-14 were very similar, designed at the same time. They both had the same exploder and both ran deeper that set.
As the Mk-14 deficiencies were corrected, the Mk-15 ones were too. The Mk-15 was not a bad torpedo when it problems were fixed.


I read this really interesting article about the whole dud torpedo thing - basically the argument was they weren't duds, they were just misused. it goes like this:

- The new magnetic exploders were set so that the torpedo went off when it was a certain distance from the ship.

- The torpedos were designed so they ran at a depth that would take them under the ship and if all worked, they would go off under the keel, so the shockwave could hit the ship below the torpedo protection bulkheads and break its back.

- Unfortunately no-body explained this to the sub skippers, who not only continued to take hull shots, but interfered with the depth settings so the torpedo ran shallow; this of course meant that if it did explode at the designed distance from the ship, the shockwave dissipated against the horizontal torpedo protection/armour belt of the target. Think of a circle and its radius, with the target in the middle.

- There were also explosive duds which is a different problem.

So basically, the author reckoned that had the sub skippers been educated properly, they would have understood that having their torpedos run deep, and explode under the keel of the target is actually a good idea .... (which is pretty much how torpedoes are set up to operate nowadays).





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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/7/2020 1:50:29 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Basically the Mk-15 and Mk-14 were very similar, designed at the same time. They both had the same exploder and both ran deeper that set.
As the Mk-14 deficiencies were corrected, the Mk-15 ones were too. The Mk-15 was not a bad torpedo when it problems were fixed.


I read this really interesting article about the whole dud torpedo thing - basically the argument was they weren't duds, they were just misused. it goes like this:

- The new magnetic exploders were set so that the torpedo went off when it was a certain distance from the ship.

- The torpedos were designed so they ran at a depth that would take them under the ship and if all worked, they would go off under the keel, so the shockwave could hit the ship below the torpedo protection bulkheads and break its back.

- Unfortunately no-body explained this to the sub skippers, who not only continued to take hull shots, but interfered with the depth settings so the torpedo ran shallow; this of course meant that if it did explode at the designed distance from the ship, the shockwave dissipated against the horizontal torpedo protection/armour belt of the target. Think of a circle and its radius, with the target in the middle.

- There were also explosive duds which is a different problem.

So basically, the author reckoned that had the sub skippers been educated properly, they would have understood that having their torpedos run deep, and explode under the keel of the target is actually a good idea .... (which is pretty much how torpedoes are set up to operate nowadays).


That theory sounds like the BuShips argument against the sub skippers for a year and a half. But the sub crews were not stupid, and they testified they tried every combination of depth settings and exploder type (I gather the magnetic exploder could be turned off in favour of the contact exploder for shallow water shots). Testing that was eventually done showed the depth setting problem - they set the depth wanted and fired at a sheet of some kind which showed the actual depth of impact.

Tests also showed that the contact exploder bent when impact was close to 90º to the hull. It was made of aluminum or some light alloy which, when replaced with good strong steel, worked. Not sure if the US was using the copper shaped charge cone in the warhead at that time but that would necessarily mean the firing pin was quite long to reach to the bottom of the cone.



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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/7/2020 2:40:24 PM   
Zorch

 

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Drachinifel has a video, The Mark 14 Torpedo - Failure is Like Onions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ5Ru7Zu_1I

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/7/2020 3:13:36 PM   
fcooke

 

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the US torp failure was not good. I forget which boat it was, but crippled an IJN tanker but could not put her down despite I think using another 20 torps. Then we finally got the net firing tests which proved the mk 15 was running something like 15 feet under what was selected.

And then that doofus politician saying that US subs were running lower than IJN depth charges.....fairly criminal.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/7/2020 3:32:38 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

the US torp failure was not good. I forget which boat it was, but crippled an IJN tanker but could not put her down despite I think using another 20 torps. Then we finally got the net firing tests which proved the mk 15 was running something like 15 feet under what was selected.

And then that doofus politician saying that US subs were running lower than IJN depth charges.....fairly criminal.


It was a Tonan Maru, a whaler, that was crippled, towed to Truk, and used as a large oil tank.

The politician was a Congressman from Illinois, Chicago I do believe

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Post #: 26
RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/7/2020 3:42:34 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Basically the Mk-15 and Mk-14 were very similar, designed at the same time. They both had the same exploder and both ran deeper that set.
As the Mk-14 deficiencies were corrected, the Mk-15 ones were too. The Mk-15 was not a bad torpedo when it problems were fixed.


I read this really interesting article about the whole dud torpedo thing - basically the argument was they weren't duds, they were just misused. it goes like this:

- The new magnetic exploders were set so that the torpedo went off when it was a certain distance from the ship.

- The torpedos were designed so they ran at a depth that would take them under the ship and if all worked, they would go off under the keel, so the shockwave could hit the ship below the torpedo protection bulkheads and break its back.

- Unfortunately no-body explained this to the sub skippers, who not only continued to take hull shots, but interfered with the depth settings so the torpedo ran shallow; this of course meant that if it did explode at the designed distance from the ship, the shockwave dissipated against the horizontal torpedo protection/armour belt of the target. Think of a circle and its radius, with the target in the middle.

- There were also explosive duds which is a different problem.

So basically, the author reckoned that had the sub skippers been educated properly, they would have understood that having their torpedos run deep, and explode under the keel of the target is actually a good idea .... (which is pretty much how torpedoes are set up to operate nowadays).


That theory sounds like the BuShips argument against the sub skippers for a year and a half. But the sub crews were not stupid, and they testified they tried every combination of depth settings and exploder type (I gather the magnetic exploder could be turned off in favour of the contact exploder for shallow water shots). Testing that was eventually done showed the depth setting problem - they set the depth wanted and fired at a sheet of some kind which showed the actual depth of impact.

Tests also showed that the contact exploder bent when impact was close to 90º to the hull. It was made of aluminum or some light alloy which, when replaced with good strong steel, worked. Not sure if the US was using the copper shaped charge cone in the warhead at that time but that would necessarily mean the firing pin was quite long to reach to the bottom of the cone.


From what I remember reading about this, the Earth's magnetic field in the Western Pacific causes the ships' magnetic fields to run more horizontally than vertically which sets off the magnetic detonator too soon, something that BuOrd dd not realize. They fired the torpedoes trough a series of nets to see how the torpedoes moved like a porpoise, from the actual depth setting to too deep by about 10 to 11 feet, on average. Part of the problem as that during the testing, the torpedoes id not have the same weight as the warhead so it was lighter.

The first, improved firing pin was made from a wrecked Japanese aircraft propeller. The aluminum was light enough to travel back fast enough to detonate the exploder before the front of the torpedo deformed, the slower heavier steel firing pin would be trapped before hitting the exploder if the impact angle was close to 90 degrees, in other words, normally the best angle.

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Post #: 27
RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/7/2020 6:32:08 PM   
fcooke

 

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Interesting - everything I have ever read said hitting the target off 90 worked better. Not intuitive but the data seems to back it up.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/7/2020 7:28:59 PM   
CV10

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
The politician was a Congressman from Illinois, Chicago I do believe


Andrew May of the Kentucky 7th District. He was the Chairman of the House Military Affairs Committee.

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RE: Hmmm...Where did everybody go??? - 11/7/2020 11:17:54 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Interesting - everything I have ever read said hitting the target off 90 worked better. Not intuitive but the data seems to back it up.


That normally would be the best shot but not with the wrong firing pins!

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― Julia Child


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Post #: 30
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