Question on Surprise Rules

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Question on Surprise Rules - 11/8/2020 3:40:54 PM

AllenK

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Joined: 2/17/2014
From: England
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It's M/J 40 impulse 4 (Allied). USSR has declared war on Japan this impulse.

The Communist Chinese declared a land combat, as below.

At the ground support step, the Japanese, who have aircraft in range, were not given the option of flying any such missions. We are unsure whether or not this is a bug or working as intended.

Looking at RAC, gives the following:

"20. CHINESE COMMUNISTS
The Soviet player always controls the Chinese communist units and their activities count against Soviet activity limits. Partisans in China are always Chinese communist units.

15.1. SURPRISE EFFECTS
AIRCRAFT UNITS
Surprised aircraft units cannot fly any mission that is exclusively against units controlled by major powers declaring war. Therefore, in the surprise impulse they can�t:

Fly a ground support mission to a hex being attacked only by units controlled by those enemy major powers;"

A literal interpretation of the above would be the Chinese Communists are controlled by USSR. Since USSR has declared war this impulse, the Japanese aircraft cannot fly any missions against units controlled by USSR and, therefore, cannot fly ground support against the Chinese Communist attack.

On that basis, MWiF would appear to working according to the letter of the rules but does seem a bit counter-intuitive and at odds with the general spirit of the Surprise rules. In most cases, involvement of units from countries already at war tends to negate the surprise effects.

Steve, can you help on this one?

Edit: Game file at the Ground Support CAP phase attached.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by AllenK -- 11/8/2020 4:12:41 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Question on Surprise Rules - 11/8/2020 5:22:26 PM

Orm

Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

You missed the paragraph that answers this. Japan is already at war with China. And Communist and Nationalist Chinese count as one major power for this purpose. Therefore Japan should not be surprised by the Communist Chinese. It is a bug.

Cur from RAC:
15. Surprise
Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power declares war on them, even if they are
already at war with someone else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor country they are
currently at war with. Furthermore, they are not surprised by land or aircraft units attacking from, or flying over,
hexes controlled by a major power or minor country at war with them last impulse.

20. Chinese communists
20. Chinese communists
The Soviet player always controls the Chinese communist units and their activities count against Soviet
activity limits. Partisans in China are always Chinese communist units.
[Clarification. Communist Chinese units may not move if China takes a Pass action. This is true even if the USSR
does not Pass. If the USSR is incompletely or completely conquered, the communist Chinese activity limits are � of
the USSR�s - Dec. 29, 2007.]
However, nationalist and communist Chinese units go into the same force pools. They are built by the
nationalist player but he or she has no choice whether to produce nationalist or communist units.
Apart from the above (and the placement of reinforcements ~ see 4.2), Communist and Nationalist Chinese
count as one major power for all purposes (e.g. they can't be conquered separately, declaring war on them is only one
US entry effect, etc.).
[Clarification. If China produces an offensive chit, it can be used by either the Nationalist or Communist Chinese
(the Nationalist Chinese decide how the chit is used). The Communist Chinese may get a benefit if the Nationalist
Chinese use an offensive chit: (1) no benefit to the Communist Chinese if the offensive chit is applied to Chiang or
Stilwell, (2) if the chit is used for a �super Combined Action�, the Communist Chinese units can perform all
activities irrespective of the action type taken by the USSR for the impulse, (3) may only be applied to Mao if the
USSR takes a Land Action - June 25, 2008.]

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to AllenK)

Post #: 2

RE: Question on Surprise Rules - 11/8/2020 6:29:05 PM

AllenK

Posts: 7259
Joined: 2/17/2014
From: England
Status: offline

"Apart from the above" would generally mean the conditions in the paragraphs before this statement are not subject to the conditions that follow it. Or, in this case, in relation to control of units, the Nationalists and Communists are not counted as one power. In essence, MWiF appears to be counting the Communists as being USSR and not Chinese. The rest follows logically from that.

When declaring the combat, it's done as a USSR attack. I tried a dummy run with the Nationalists also trying an attack. The Japanese could fly ground support to the Nationalist attack but not the USSR (Communist) one.

However, you would have thought counting "as one major power for all purposes" would include Surprise.

< Message edited by AllenK -- 11/8/2020 6:31:02 PM >

(in reply to Orm)

Post #: 3

RE: Question on Surprise Rules - 11/8/2020 6:46:10 PM

paulderynck

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Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
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Looks like a bug to me. Japan should not be affected except for combat exclusively against Russians.

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Paul

(in reply to AllenK)

Post #: 4

RE: Question on Surprise Rules - 11/8/2020 8:29:36 PM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
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RAW:

15. Surprise
Major powers and minor countries are surprised when a major power
declares war on them, even if they are already at war with someone
else. However, they are not surprised by a major power or minor
country they are currently at war with. Furthermore, they are not
surprised by land or aircraft units attacking from, or flying over, hexes
controlled by a major power or minor country at war with them last
impulse.

Since Japan is are already at war with China, this is a bug, except if those Chinese Communists would be attacking out of USSR controlled hexes. if that's the case, the Japanese planes would not be allowed to intercept the Chicomms. But that's not happening here...

So I agree with Paul: it's a bug.

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to paulderynck)

Post #: 5

RE: Question on Surprise Rules - 11/9/2020 12:49:09 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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One of the joys of coding MWIF is the special rules for the Communist Chinese.

The code always has to work around them being Chinese but a separate minor country. And that they are controlled by the USSR but not part of the USSR. Oh, 4000+ lines of code deal with those issues. It appears I need to add some more.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Centuur)

Post #: 6

RE: Question on Surprise Rules - 11/9/2020 3:24:33 PM

Centuur

Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

One of the joys of coding MWIF is the special rules for the Communist Chinese.

The code always has to work around them being Chinese but a separate minor country. And that they are controlled by the USSR but not part of the USSR. Oh, 4000+ lines of code deal with those issues. It appears I need to add some more.

Good luck...

_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 7

RE: Question on Surprise Rules - 11/9/2020 5:26:28 PM

AllenK

Posts: 7259
Joined: 2/17/2014
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

One of the joys of coding MWIF is the special rules for the Communist Chinese.

The code always has to work around them being Chinese but a separate minor country. And that they are controlled by the USSR but not part of the USSR. Oh, 4000+ lines of code deal with those issues. It appears I need to add some more.

Thanks Steve.

As Centuur says ... 'Good luck'.

If it's any comfort, I've just run a test, using Fast Start, to check whether the Germans could still call in Ground Support to a Polish counter-attack on S/O 39 impulse 2 when surprised by CW and France DoW. No problems with that one.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 8