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War Plan Orange - 11/15/2020 5:09:59 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I've played some version of this game since the original UV came out, but I never bought or tried War Plan Orange. The forum is still there and there was activity when it first came out, but seems like it never really caught on, and the game is basically dead.

Anyone here play it? Why do you think it died? Maybe because it was not historical but more hypothetical, or just the lack of airpower kind of killed the concept?

I can only imagine what this engine is like with only limited airplanes, it sure would make surprise invasions easier.....

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/15/2020 7:01:31 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
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Status: offline 		Bit of a niche setting, in an already niche genre (consider how many wargames are Eurocentric...)

Plus, from what I've seen WPO was quite unforgiving compared to AE. Once one side gets the naval ascendancy it was hard to come back from.

AE tends to balance that out with a much more formidable naval component.

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/15/2020 7:20:29 PM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline 		I played it a bit. I found it to be boring after a while. Mostly because it was kinda like looking for a needle in a haystack, since during the period there weren't many aircraft for navalsearch....GP

< Message edited by btd64 -- 11/15/2020 7:22:40 PM >

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/16/2020 2:09:59 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
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From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		It's based on the vanilla WITP version isn't it?

I would rather see a Mediterranean setting, although you would probably need to restrict it to the period January 41 -> July 43.

*Edit - using the AE engine.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 11/16/2020 2:10:38 AM >

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/16/2020 8:00:23 AM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

It's based on the vanilla WITP version isn't it?

I would rather see a Mediterranean setting, although you would probably need to restrict it to the period January 41 -> July 43.

*Edit - using the AE engine.

I’m with you on that, I always loved the naval component of the war in the Mediterranean. I vaguely remember a mod project on AE (or was it still WITP ?), but it got stuck. I think the main problem might be the land combat engine - while it may be adequate for the land component of the war in the Pacific, the North African Desert campaign was very much a war of movement.

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Post #: 5
RE: War Plan Orange - 11/16/2020 12:49:10 PM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline 		If you love pre-dreds, you'll get them in spades here.

I always had fun with it. Getting opponents was an issue for me.

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/16/2020 2:00:02 PM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		Tangent - I forget the name of the game but the Hiryu kicked the bottom out of a SAG. I then looked at her from the other side and it turned out she mounted 14" guns. I actually called tech support but they told me no updates/fixes were going to be coming. You have to like all the support Matrix gives their games.

Now I need to find the name of that game. Also have a craving to play Steel Panthers and the various Close Combat titles now. Time to figure out DosBox.

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/16/2020 2:49:43 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

It's based on the vanilla WITP version isn't it?

I would rather see a Mediterranean setting, although you would probably need to restrict it to the period January 41 -> July 43.

*Edit - using the AE engine.


If memory serves, somebody did build a new scenario, new map, everything for the Med many years ago, back when WITP came out. I am nearly certain that's correct. Anyone else recall that?

At first it was really cool to model the Regia Marina and all the Italian/German planes in a sandbox with the Royal Navy. IIRC, the mod ran aground in BETA form because a) the Italian Navy would get smacked, and/or b) the land component was too abstracted to really work

I think the problem using this engine for the Med is that the Med was really focused in getting supplies and material to North Africa, and preventing the Axis from doing exactly that. I think it would be very hard to create and balance the same priorities for the Axis player. And the WITP-AE land model would just not work in the Western Desert, it would be a disaster.

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/16/2020 2:50:36 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

It's based on the vanilla WITP version isn't it?

I would rather see a Mediterranean setting, although you would probably need to restrict it to the period January 41 -> July 43.

*Edit - using the AE engine.

I’m with you on that, I always loved the naval component of the war in the Mediterranean. I vaguely remember a mod project on AE (or was it still WITP ?), but it got stuck. I think the main problem might be the land combat engine - while it may be adequate for the land component of the war in the Pacific, the North African Desert campaign was very much a war of movement.


Actually a much bigger problem for a Mediterranean version of AE is the hex range. For land combat purposes the hex size should be reduced to 20 statute miles. That would give you a 3-4 hex space between the sea and the Quattara Depression. Bigger sized hexes would not permit any land flanking possibilities.

However, if the hex size is 20 statute miles, that creates naval combat problems for the main guns of the battleships at times exchanged fire at ranges beyond 20 statute miles. The AE system does not allow for combat to extend over two adjacent hexes simultaneously.

Alfred

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/16/2020 2:54:24 PM   
Q-Ball


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From: Chicago, Illinois
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quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

I played it a bit. I found it to be boring after a while. Mostly because it was kinda like looking for a needle in a haystack, since during the period there weren't many aircraft for navalsearch....GP


I can see that.....probably big naval battles happened around landing sites in WPO. The Pacific Ocean is a very big haystack....

Without air operations, I imagine alot of turns went by with....nothing going on

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/17/2020 4:53:01 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		I tried it a number of years ago when it went on fall sale. I wanted to play a game that was more in the surface combat realm.

Unfortunately, the UI improvements of AE made my experience with WPO...not great. I didn't do more than 1 turn. Solely because of the UI. If it were WPO scenario in the AE engine? Yeah, I'd play that.

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/17/2020 5:15:37 PM   
CV10

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
If it were WPO scenario in the AE engine? Yeah, I'd play that.


In theory, it would be possible to create a WPO-style scenario with the scenario editor if one spent enough time replacing all of the ships, aircraft, air groups, LCUs, and leaders, and came up with an acceptable timeline to fit in with the game dates (So saying that 1942 would correspond to 1921, 1943 to 1922).

But it would require an immense amount of work and probably run into a number of issues.

< Message edited by CV10 -- 11/17/2020 5:17:12 PM >

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/18/2020 8:27:26 AM   
LeeChard

 

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From: Michigan
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I tried it a number of years ago when it went on fall sale. I wanted to play a game that was more in the surface combat realm.

Unfortunately, the UI improvements of AE made my experience with WPO...not great. I didn't do more than 1 turn. Solely because of the UI. If it were WPO scenario in the AE engine? Yeah, I'd play that.

My experience too. I seem to recall a lack of waypoints a problem for me.

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Post #: 13
RE: War Plan Orange - 11/18/2020 11:27:28 AM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline 		I bought War Plan Orange together with WitP. It is quite similar game, but with atrocious ranges for most of submarines, and planes, so you can't make any viable search plan. It's like playing WitP blindly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

It's based on the vanilla WITP version isn't it?

I would rather see a Mediterranean setting, although you would probably need to restrict it to the period January 41 -> July 43.

*Edit - using the AE engine.


If memory serves, somebody did build a new scenario, new map, everything for the Med many years ago, back when WITP came out. I am nearly certain that's correct. Anyone else recall that?

At first it was really cool to model the Regia Marina and all the Italian/German planes in a sandbox with the Royal Navy. IIRC, the mod ran aground in BETA form because a) the Italian Navy would get smacked, and/or b) the land component was too abstracted to really work

I think the problem using this engine for the Med is that the Med was really focused in getting supplies and material to North Africa, and preventing the Axis from doing exactly that. I think it would be very hard to create and balance the same priorities for the Axis player. And the WITP-AE land model would just not work in the Western Desert, it would be a disaster.

Yeah, there was Mediterranean MOD for WITP, but there was active guy in mod forum here, who was making whole Western Front. I recall he run out of slots for German Divisions, because of too many different devices.

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/18/2020 11:52:09 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

It's based on the vanilla WITP version isn't it?

I would rather see a Mediterranean setting, although you would probably need to restrict it to the period January 41 -> July 43.

*Edit - using the AE engine.

I’m with you on that, I always loved the naval component of the war in the Mediterranean. I vaguely remember a mod project on AE (or was it still WITP ?), but it got stuck. I think the main problem might be the land combat engine - while it may be adequate for the land component of the war in the Pacific, the North African Desert campaign was very much a war of movement.


Actually a much bigger problem for a Mediterranean version of AE is the hex range. For land combat purposes the hex size should be reduced to 20 statute miles. That would give you a 3-4 hex space between the sea and the Quattara Depression. Bigger sized hexes would not permit any land flanking possibilities.

However, if the hex size is 20 statute miles, that creates naval combat problems for the main guns of the battleships at times exchanged fire at ranges beyond 20 statute miles. The AE system does not allow for combat to extend over two adjacent hexes simultaneously.

Alfred


All that points to GG's west front/east front II system with one week turns, and a very different naval/naval- air module based on on those 7 day turns.

Ironically, returning to the old starting point of DOS pacwar, where TFs moved in to sea spaces abstractly defined by the paths between bases, and developing that in a different direction from WITP, would more likely result in a workable system - and one more playable with respect to time and detail.

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/18/2020 10:31:18 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		Fremen's WitM v1.2b (and the 1.22b update) is still available at Spooky's Site. And yes, it only works with the original WitP (not AE).

< Message edited by Kull -- 11/18/2020 10:32:50 PM >

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/20/2020 9:18:37 PM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		WPO needs an AE update.

Too many are used to long ranging aircraft and see it as a slow game.

Given a map facelift, LCU/Ships/Aircraft reviewed and tidied up leaves a game with lots of surprises. CR's picket lines come into vogue as you need something to provide warning, there are a lot of approaches to be covered. You get an inkling about why some obsolete tactics were used at the start of the Big war.

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/21/2020 11:12:30 AM   
LeeChard

 

Posts: 1099
Joined: 9/12/2007
From: Michigan
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffroK

WPO needs an AE update.

Too many are used to long ranging aircraft and see it as a slow game.

Given a map facelift, LCU/Ships/Aircraft reviewed and tidied up leaves a game with lots of surprises. CR's picket lines come into vogue as you need something to provide warning, there are a lot of approaches to be covered. You get an inkling about why some obsolete tactics were used at the start of the Big war.

+1

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Post #: 18
RE: War Plan Orange - 11/21/2020 3:18:24 PM   
CV10

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 5/21/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LeeChard


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffroK

WPO needs an AE update.

Too many are used to long ranging aircraft and see it as a slow game.

Given a map facelift, LCU/Ships/Aircraft reviewed and tidied up leaves a game with lots of surprises. CR's picket lines come into vogue as you need something to provide warning, there are a lot of approaches to be covered. You get an inkling about why some obsolete tactics were used at the start of the Big war.

+1


+2, though I know that the odds for this are quite long!


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Post #: 19
RE: War Plan Orange - 11/21/2020 3:41:20 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		Just make a WPO scenario.

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Post #: 20
RE: War Plan Orange - 11/21/2020 8:17:54 PM   
RFalvo69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Just make a WPO scenario.

IIRC, War Plan Orange was born as a mod for WitP. Then Matrix noticed the quality of the effort and proposed to his creator to turn the mod into a full, independent game.

I don't remember the name of the developer. I do remember that he stopped working on WPO because he had been recruited to develop a modern version of "Carrier Strike" - only to promptly disappear in some sort of Bermuda Triangle along with that project.

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/22/2020 4:28:29 AM   
CV10

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Just make a WPO scenario.


I'm thinking about giving it a try. If I understand things correctly, WPO was build on the WitP engine and I have little experience with old WitP. I'm not sure what would need adjusting from the WitP engine to the AE engine.


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Post #: 22
RE: War Plan Orange - 11/22/2020 5:13:40 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		Your dates will look off, but you can assign 7 December "1941" as whatever your start year is and go from there.

I can tell you from experience that adding a mass of new material to the data base, while leaving the now unused stuff there (changing arrival to 9999 so it is inactive) can result in problems loading the scenario files, so you will need to do some culling of ships, air-groups, and ground unit 'locations'.

The good news is that because you have some pre-Washington treaty ships in the 1941 scenarios, you already have most of the devices you need to set up all the early 30's ships in the data base (On the allied side, the Omahas, the 4 pipers, the Caroline class descendants, the admiralty class DDs and the like give you most everything you need.)

The first thing you need to decide is if your scenario will be in a non-Washington universe. That will determine if you go with the "treaty cruisers", the 8" armed 10,000 tonners, or off in other directions. In non Washington universe, the USN gets Lexington CCs, instead of CVs, the IJN does not get the Akagi or Kaga as CVs, the RN does not get Courageous and Glorious, and so forth.





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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/22/2020 11:25:29 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		The underappreciated issue with any private mod starting before 7 December 1941 using the AE engine is the hard coded changes from approximately turn 400 onwards. Even with direct access to the code, accommodating for these future changes before turn 400 so that play balance is maintained is not easy; rather impossible if the modder doesn't know the actual code.

The hard coded changes of AE take into account the historical factors of the actual war years. They don't take into account the conditions of the 1930s.

Alfred

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Post #: 24
RE: War Plan Orange - 11/22/2020 2:25:46 PM   
Platoonist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


I don't remember the name of the developer. I do remember that he stopped working on WPO because he had been recruited to develop a modern version of "Carrier Strike" - only to promptly disappear in some sort of Bermuda Triangle along with that project.


His forum names was Tankerace. His actual name was Justin Prince. It's actually there on the ad for WPO on page four of the WITPAE manual as Justin Prince Designs. He hasn't posted anything in years, but he does still seem to log in.





Attachment (1)

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RE: Válečný plán Orange - 11/22/2020 9:30:37 PM   
Dali101

 

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Status: offline 		You'll meet Justin again.
And perhaps the war in the Mediterranean ....

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Post #: 26
RE: Válečný plán Orange - 11/25/2020 1:13:05 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		You will find a lot of the WITP forum members listed as ship captains in WPO, since it proved difficult to find historical commanders for the time - especially for the ships that were included but never built or finished.

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RE: War Plan Orange - 11/25/2020 8:11:43 AM   
Shilka

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mundy

If you love pre-dreds, you'll get them in spades here.

I always had fun with it. Getting opponents was an issue for me.


I never played WPO (although did some WITP). I might try out WPO at some point as well.
I'm not sure whether this will be regarded as illegal advertising, but if one likes pre-dreadnoughts, and ship design since early 20th century in general, one might like to check out titles by NSW, "Rule the Waves" and "Rule the Waves 2", and maybe Ultimate Admiral Dreadnoughts. One learns to appreciate how technology moved forward and all the compromises ship designers had to make taking into account different naval treaties, available tech like turret arrangements, armor, speed and so on.

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Post #: 28
RE: War Plan Orange - 11/25/2020 11:48:09 AM   
Mundy


Posts: 2869
Joined: 6/26/2002
From: Neenah
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shilka

I never played WPO (although did some WITP). I might try out WPO at some point as well.
I'm not sure whether this will be regarded as illegal advertising, but if one likes pre-dreadnoughts, and ship design since early 20th century in general, one might like to check out titles by NSW, "Rule the Waves" and "Rule the Waves 2", and maybe Ultimate Admiral Dreadnoughts. One learns to appreciate how technology moved forward and all the compromises ship designers had to make taking into account different naval treaties, available tech like turret arrangements, armor, speed and so on.


I actually played the full campaign in WPO before I ever attempted it in old WITP. It was a bit easier to swallow, trying this for the first time.


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