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What a load of crap - 8/12/2003 7:36:41 AM   
uncle joe

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 8/12/2003
Status: offline 		Plunked down 50 bucks for this game and discover that I have to go to Kinkos to get the manual printed. WTF?! Yeah, I'll play it and enjoy it, but how come Battlefront.com can print a terrific manual and include it in their game while Matrix has it on PDF and expects the customer to get it printed at their own expense? When will companies ever learn that one of the steps to developing a devoted fan base means providing a first rate manual IN PRINTED FORM! Take a clue from battlefront.com, fellas - you missed the boat on this one. Had I known about this, I definitely would have not bought this until the price was lowered, and because I feel like I was screwed, will probably not buy the next game they put out. Yeah, like that will make a difference, but at least I'm voicing my opinion with my money next time!
Post #: 1
- 8/12/2003 8:00:48 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		1. I too would prefer a manual

2. As for the price, Aussies have to pay in AUD. About A$80 plus shipping.

3. This is a great game. I played the original for 2 years. (It was a free download). This has many improvements.

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Post #: 2
Re: What a load of crap - 8/12/2003 8:14:17 AM   
Ross Moorhouse


Posts: 2354
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by uncle joe
[B]Plunked down 50 bucks for this game and discover that I have to go to Kinkos to get the manual printed. WTF?! Yeah, I'll play it and enjoy it, but how come Battlefront.com can print a terrific manual and include it in their game while Matrix has it on PDF and expects the customer to get it printed at their own expense? When will companies ever learn that one of the steps to developing a devoted fan base means providing a first rate manual IN PRINTED FORM! Take a clue from battlefront.com, fellas - you missed the boat on this one. Had I known about this, I definitely would have not bought this until the price was lowered, and because I feel like I was screwed, will probably not buy the next game they put out. Yeah, like that will make a difference, but at least I'm voicing my opinion with my money next time! [/B][/QUOTE]

Many bigger publishers than us are selling top rating games down under here in DVD cases. No manuals.

You get the players guide with KP and from reading many different forums than this is very well liked. Even comments that the manual is just a reference guide and they have no problems with it being on the disc.

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Post #: 3
- 8/12/2003 8:35:27 AM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		Uncle joe is entitled to his opinion. Mine is that the printed Players Guide (aka tutorial) gives you all the basics needed to play the game. I'd rather have the other manual in pdf so you guys can fix any errata and post an update rather than have a printed manual that may soon be out of date.

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Post #: 4
Re: Re: What a load of crap - 8/12/2003 8:43:44 AM   
uncle joe

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 8/12/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ross Moorhouse
[B]Many bigger publishers than us are selling top rating games down under here in DVD cases. No manuals.

You get the players guide with KP and from reading many different forums than this is very well liked. Even comments that the manual is just a reference guide and they have no problems with it being on the disc. [/B][/QUOTE]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Saying other companies do it this way is a rationalization of a position that in my view is indefensible. This is a trend that should not be tolerated, but because in this case the consumer is so passionate about this particular genre, you could probably sell this game with absolutely zero documentation and it would still sell well. First rate wargames such as this are a rarity, and instead of doing it right (once again, look at BFC), a corner was cut. Your bottom line will no doubt look better, but a great manual has long term benifits with regards to consumer good will, and you can't put a price on that.



Yeah, the players guide is nicely done. The forums are and will be a great source of info. I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't mind it being on disc. But bottom line is that the manual exists for a reason and not including it in printed form is wrong. Look at the debacle with Hearts of Iron. They printed a manual, but it's a complete joke and is a real sore spot. Can you put a price on the good will lost because of this? I can't, but I can tell you that had they made a manual equal to Combat Mission, it would be a non issue.

All I'm saying is that companies should do the right thing, and expecting people to pay extra to get a manual printed is not right. Take it for what it's worth, but I'll wager the next time Matrix publishes a wargame, the manual will be on the disc and people will buy it anyway. What a load of crap.

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Post #: 5
- 8/12/2003 9:00:28 AM   
gus

 

Posts: 237
Joined: 3/16/2002
From: Corvallis, OR
Status: offline 		Hey Joe,

When game companies first started putting the manual on disk instead of shipping a hard copy I was a bit PO'ed too but I have grown to like the idea as it does have advantages. The most important of theseIMO is that the digital manual can be updated while the printed manual cannot. Matrix has a fine reputation of customer support and I am sure this will continue.

Other advantages of the .pdf is that it is more readily searchable and it doesn't cost you a penny more to have it in color, most manuals today are B/W.

The only real disadvantage is portability and after the first few weeks this should really not be an issue.

As for Battlefront, I love them and their games to death but their manuals are nothing to brag about. I have CMBO, CMBB and while I have no complaints about their games the creation of great manuals is not their strong suit ;-)

One peeve that I do have about the new austerity in PC game publishing at large is that fewer and fewer companies are providing jewel cases for their CD's. This is a trend that I would like to see reversed.

-g

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Post #: 6
- 8/12/2003 12:52:56 PM   
e_barkmann


Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline 		I am sick of manuals. By the time I receive a game, the 1st patch is out, and the manual is outdated. And will those companies issue updates?

My CMBO, CMBB and AA manuals are propping up various bits of hardware around the house.

That's my opinion :-)

Cheers Chris

edit: I re-read this and it looks like I'm bashing BFC. Nothing could be further from the truth, I love their games - I just find the manuals of little use once the game has been patched.

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Post #: 7
- 8/12/2003 1:22:35 PM   
David Heath


Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline 		Hi Uncle Joe

First everyone has the right to speak their minds here and Uncle Joe is no exception. I would like to make some points without saying another company doing it. I like to give you our reasons and if we don't agree then we don't.

Let me also say that I am a fan of Battlefront's games. Battlefront can afford to print large manuals because they do not also print boxes. Remember only after the games were selling for some time did they make a box version and are now selling it in stores. For years there games only sold online and so they did not need any boxes.

We wanted to be in the store selling games and the cost is a big factor. Wargames unlike other games have very large manuals and the costs to print these bigger manuals are not cheap. We wanted to be free to write detail manuals and update them as we went along.

We then went and wrote extended tutorials (Korsun is a perfect example of this) and printed those. The detail manual can be fully searched and updated. The Kinkos part of this was nothing more then for customers who wanted the printed manual could order it.

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Post #: 8
- 8/12/2003 1:45:21 PM   
"Joss" Osborne

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 5/17/2003
Status: offline 		The other issue to understand is how the retailers have driven the companies to the smaller boxes (smaller boxes.....market more games per foot of shelf space).

With this move it's almost impossible to put a quality manual in such a small box. (Check out the Microsoft manuals for CFS3 and Flight Simulator 2004 and Freelancer)....

I'm not saying it's good, but it is what it is. I actually prefer the .pdf versions for what's been already said: it's searchable. It can be updated by Matrix with ease (including version/patch updates) and redistributed over the Net (try that with a printed manual). I have printed out the Korsun Manual--- it didn't stress my printer and I have an older HP 932.....

If you know how to operate the print function in Adobe Reader you can also just print out certain pages if you don't want the whole manual, and you can print in grayscale if you don't want your color toner to get sucked out.

One could say that the alternative is to charge $60 per game and include a large manual, but with the size constarints on box size even that might not be an option.

As far as I'm concerned.... Matrix---just keep the quality wargames coming.....:D

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Post #: 9
No printed manual good - 8/12/2003 3:56:23 PM   
Matthew Urch

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 10/22/2001
From: UK
Status: offline 		I just wanted to through in my 2 cents. I think not having a printed manual is a good thing. Its just a waste of paper and space. We accept the wargame is computerised - so why no tthe manual? Pdfs are easy to read and search - they don't get lost or have coffee stains on them. If you like to read printed manuals you have that option. But for me no printed manual is good.

Matthew Urch

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Post #: 10
- 8/12/2003 4:36:18 PM   
U2


Posts: 3332
Joined: 7/17/2001
From: Västerås,Sweden
Status: offline 		I have no need for printed manuals. I play a game without even reading the manaul and after I while I have identified 2-3 items I don't understand and check in the manual...after that it collects dust so eventhough I dont like PDF manuals it's so much better.

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Post #: 11
- 8/12/2003 5:56:47 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Yup, the only time the PDF manuals are a b*tch is when playing the tutorials. Man, that takes time. :D

Then again, printing out those pages relating to that part doesn't take too much ink.

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Post #: 12
- 8/12/2003 6:03:16 PM   
elmo3

 

Posts: 5820
Joined: 1/22/2002
Status: offline 		For KP the tutorial _is_ the printed manual. Very nice.

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Post #: 13
- 8/12/2003 6:41:31 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by elmo3
[B]For KP the tutorial _is_ the printed manual. Very nice. [/B][/QUOTE]

Muahahaaa, well serves me right for not having the game yet. :o I was referring to "other" games... ;)

Great! :D

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Post #: 14
- 8/12/2003 7:14:57 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]I was referring to "other" games... [/QUOTE]

That are?

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Post #: 15
- 8/12/2003 7:43:13 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
[B]That are? [/B][/QUOTE]

The freebies: SP:WAW and TAO2 ;) Not easy to ship a manual with something that you download. I hope I got my point through anyway; pdf manuals are fine with me. :cool:

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Post #: 16
- 8/12/2003 8:07:11 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by gus
[B]........................

One peeve that I do have about the new austerity in PC game publishing at large is that fewer and fewer companies are providing jewel cases for their CD's. This is a trend that I would like to see reversed.

-g [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, another cost cutting trend to squeeze more out of the bottom line. Don't like it either. Guess I gotta go get some more jewel cases.:mad:

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ahistorical outcomes. "

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Post #: 17
- 8/12/2003 9:45:48 PM   
sol_invictus


Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Kentucky
Status: offline 		Well I guess I must jump in here and mouth off too. I would also like there to be a printed manual and jewel case and pay a bit more for the game; but I understand the reasons that this is not done. I don't really like it, but understand it. I guess the Kinko deal is a fair compromise.

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Post #: 18
- 8/12/2003 10:48:39 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		What marketing genius names their business "Kinko" anyway... :p


/ooops offtopic

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Post #: 19
- 8/13/2003 4:01:16 AM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline 		My 2 cents is that Matrix has hit it out of the ballpark with the pdf manual but printed tutorial approach! :D

I could begin playing the tutorial immediately and it's my choice to print, use Kinkos, or just task switch when needed.

I hope this becomes the standard.

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Post #: 20
- 8/13/2003 4:49:00 AM   
Pawlock

 

Posts: 1041
Joined: 9/18/2002
From: U.K.
Status: offline 		One of my loves in Pc gaming has always been reading the manual. Some like to dive straight in, some like me dont. The Pdf is ok, but is by no way a substitute, the only way is by going the Kinko's way as reams of A4 scatttered about my worktop gets irritating fast.
Task switching is a no go AFAIC as I find it hard to read something and then switch back to look at what I just read about. Manual by the side is my preference.

btw just out of interest, Battlefront does not always include manuals as I can contest with "strategic command" ,that was pdf.

As for appendages and new data needed with patches and easy to do with pdf version, but what is wrong with patch read me files?

My say, and Im still waiting for my copy in Euroland!!!!!


Why oh why oh why, cant the world synchronise release dates? is this an ego thing? it sure seems this way over this side of the pond.

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Post #: 21
- 8/13/2003 5:44:41 AM   
wodin


Posts: 10762
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		CMBB was released in the UK through CDV and as all new games come out over here in dvd cases all the manual wasnt included.

Battlefront also expect us to pay extra for a full printed manual.

So its not just Matrix its also Battlefront and nearly all other game companies whose manual cant fit in the box.

I dont know whether KP comes with the manual on the disk as CMBB does but if you havent a printer then its no good really.

Wodin

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Post #: 22
- 8/13/2003 7:24:43 AM   
bilbow


Posts: 741
Joined: 8/22/2002
From: Concord NH
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by willgamer
[B]My 2 cents is that Matrix has hit it out of the ballpark with the pdf manual but printed tutorial approach! :D

I could begin playing the tutorial immediately and it's my choice to print, use Kinkos, or just task switch when needed.

I hope this becomes the standard. [/B][/QUOTE]


Agreed. Another advantage of the pdf is you can't lose than darn thing. How many times have I spent time looking for a manual?

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Post #: 23
- 8/13/2003 8:20:18 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Why oh why oh why, cant the world synchronise release dates? is this an ego thing? it sure seems this way over this side of the pond.[/QUOTE]

No, its a supply chain thing. It leaves our warehouse on day X and then diffuses out to distriubuters, from whom it diffuses out.

TO synchronize so everyone can get it the same day would require immense planning, hoping that stores leave it locked in their back room for some weeks, while it makes it way to everybody.

The Harry Potter thing was amazing, and had to enlist even the US POst Office to hold packages for delivery. Ewven so soome slipped through the cracks...Synchronized release everywhere in the world is next to impossible. Especially for acompany of our limited means...

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Post #: 24
- 8/13/2003 9:51:57 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		Harry Potter... even books need patches today LOL!

Reading this thread 2 things stand out: 1. I'd have named it "What no manual?" and 2. My answer would have been "ehhh - wrong".

A very nice effort in supplying a printed tutorial manual, good stock paper with illustrations from what I can see and going on feedback here, comprehensive to boot. Though black and white it is designed to be read whilst playing along so comprehending the lack of color in it's illustrations should be easy. Thumbs up out of the box. More later.

And thank you to someone on this forum re the warning in holding the box upside-down and having the manual hit you in the face. That is usually the way I open games too.... :p

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Post #: 25
- 8/13/2003 10:34:44 AM   
Nickel

 

Posts: 124
Joined: 6/25/2003
From: WI- USA
Status: offline 		I would rather pay a little less for the game and get it sooner considering all the logistics involved. I've got an HP DeskJet 932, not all that fast. It took me about 12-13 minutes to print the manual. I checked ink before and after I printed and I used way less than 10% (runs in 10% increments, so might be less than 5%). The tutorial manual included was very good and got you able to start playing right away. I guess I don't see what the issue is here. Besides if there are any manual changes, I would hope that they are included with the patch. Then just print the changes. :rolleyes:

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Post #: 26
- 8/13/2003 4:23:02 PM   
Pawlock

 

Posts: 1041
Joined: 9/18/2002
From: U.K.
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Vebber
[B]No, its a supply chain thing. It leaves our warehouse on day X and then diffuses out to distriubuters, from whom it diffuses out.

TO synchronize so everyone can get it the same day would require immense planning, hoping that stores leave it locked in their back room for some weeks, while it makes it way to everybody.

The Harry Potter thing was amazing, and had to enlist even the US POst Office to hold packages for delivery. Ewven so soome slipped through the cracks...Synchronized release everywhere in the world is next to impossible. Especially for acompany of our limited means... [/B][/QUOTE]

Now this, trying not to sound confused is baffling. Why? because is this not the reason Matrix signed a deal with "Justplay" to be the main distributors for Europe? If that is the case then surely they print thier own copies based on the master copy? No need for shipping from US as they should have their own supply.

I must be wrong in this assumption?

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Post #: 27
- 8/14/2003 2:24:08 AM   
Toxie

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 8/5/2003
From: WA./USA
Status: offline 		I see everyone's point on having a .pdf. It can be updated etc. But I see Uncle Joe's too. I'm an old wargamer and I remember some of the excellent manuals that use to come with some great boardgames from AH, OSG, SSI, Battleline etc. I loved to have these in hand for when I was out and about (work, play, 'throne' etc) in RL. I would clutch them, peruse them when a chance arose, caress them in glee at the wonderful mechanics, historical commentary, bibliography and definition of terms. It was grail like,
teddy bear like:D in it's substance and connection to a great game I wish I was playing right now, but RL was preventing it.
In that I'm nostalgic and am alway's delighted when a big, fat,
juicy manual full of all above said items come with a game. But I too know time's change, attitudes change and economics change.
Understandable to say the least. But yet...

Toxie

p.s. Well old grognards have to live up to the name:) (and come to think of it, some manuals end up being better then the game. One that comes to mind is MPS's 'Across the Rhine'. The historical
commentary manual was great! I still have it around for quick reference (you know, old, memory lost etc:rolleyes: )

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Post #: 28
- 8/14/2003 3:23:55 AM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		Don't mean to be a wise-@ss, but for you who want a printed manual - don't you own a printer? :confused: And if not, at least around here the print shops have pretty decent fares.

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Post #: 29
- 8/14/2003 7:05:37 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		I dont really care that there is no manual. The user guide that came with it has everything I need (as far as what button to press to perform a function). I'll never bother going through the trouble of printing the manual out, because it doesn't have any information I need after reading the user guide.

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