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John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/19/2020 1:57:13 AM

pz501

Posts: 180
Joined: 10/1/2003
From: Southern Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Wondering if anyone here owns and plays any games in this series? I speak of the ones released by Tiller himself, not Talonsoft and Matrix.

Reason I ask is because the forum at the Blitzkrieg Club is very quiet, and PBEM opponents are pretty hard to find there. A dedicated ACW gaming club is around, and while I appreciate the spirit of it's members, I don't much care for the role-playing involved or use of military ranks, along with certain other mandatory aspects of membership. To each his/her own however.

_____________________________

"And I will show you where the Iron Crosses grow." Oberfeldwebel Rolf Steiner, The Cross of Iron

Post #: 1

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/20/2020 10:52:40 AM

hellcat23

Posts: 43
Joined: 12/16/2011
Status: offline

Hey,

Yep I have collected them all over time and despite the shortcomings that many have mentioned in the past I still get a lot of enjoyment out of them. I find them educational, I enjoy play vs the AI which does vary by title and battle but a great many new options and features has helped with that.

There is a huge amount of content in each title and the campaign system is really interesting where you can choose whether to fight a battle out or skip it and move on in the decision tree and there are some really interesting variants to be found in there.

I also like Scourge of War series and Ultimate General series but sometimes I really like to settle down to some ACW Tiller especially if I am reading a book about a particular battle or campaign. For example I really didn't know much at all about Pea Ridge until I got into the battle and that led down a really fascinating rabbit hole of wikis and a few youtubes about it.

I also have a longer term play project of trying to thread my way through the whole war chronologically which means hopping from one campaign to another and one title to another. Started out at Bull Run and made it to 1862 will be a busy year!

Some battles are pleasantly short and some are huge. If playing vs AI there are usually notes as to which side is recommended to play.

So yes they can be dry but for me at least they have been a great friend for over 20 years in one form or another and I'm still learning and experiencing history. I also recommend the Napoleonic and the WW2 ranges. The best advice is pick one you have an interest in or think you will like, even better if a sale is on.

For playing humans I would add that it is best to find people who agree to play in the style of the period rather than gaming out exploit schemes that were never seen on an ACW (or Napoleonic) battlefield.

Hope this helps.

(in reply to pz501)

Post #: 2

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/20/2020 1:59:47 PM

pz501

Posts: 180
Joined: 10/1/2003
From: Southern Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Thanks for the reply and insights. It's always good to see that you're not alone!

Like you I read the history and game out the situations, but the time comes when the AI just isn't a good substitute for a Human opponent.

Also, like you I tend to want to play the period and use maneuvers and tactics from that era. This can be hard to do in a PBEM, unless both parties agree to do so before hand (a lot of people I've played before tend to treat the ACW titles like Panzer Campaigns with horses instead of tanks) and can lead to situations where one or the other is playing like it's a WW2 game. While perfectly legal as far as the games rules are concerned, it can ruin things sometimes.

Just like you I own every title in the series, (up to and including Shenandoah), and have even learned how to create and modify custom OOB's, change map graphics, and using the built in editor make or modify scenarios. (At one point after some discussion, David Freer of Wargame Design Studio did a huge map for me to support a new scenario for Campaign Gettysburg. The scenario was actually completed and play tested, but never did make it into any game updates. It's now posted over at The Blitz, but buried somewhere in the Black Powder Forum. I still tinker with it from time to time to this day.)

I should have explained things more fully...it's difficult at times to find a PBEM opponent over at The Blitz. (The Napoleonic titles are more popular it seems.) You can go through some pretty long dry spells looking for a game. For instance, right now I'm looking for someone to play something from Campaign Chickamaugua, Campaign Atlanta, or Campaign Overland. No takers as yet, but we'll see.

Like I said at the start, it's great to see I'm not alone in what I play, or the play style. If you ever need a PBEM partner, drop me a line! I'm still looking as I write this.

Again, thanks for the reply!

_____________________________

"And I will show you where the Iron Crosses grow." Oberfeldwebel Rolf Steiner, The Cross of Iron

(in reply to hellcat23)

Post #: 3

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/22/2020 2:49:47 AM

balto

Posts: 1123
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline

I have not played JT games in a looong time. You mentioned that people use WW2 tactics in ACW games. Can you explain what you mean by that? Thank you.

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Post #: 4

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/22/2020 3:32:52 AM

pz501

Posts: 180
Joined: 10/1/2003
From: Southern Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Some players will do things that rarely happened in the Civil War: splitting off individual regiments and sometimes whole brigades from their parent divisions and corps by huge distances, on independent missions. While done on very rare occasions this, while perfectly legal in game terms can sometimes ruin things for someone who wants to play within the spirit of the period being simulated.

Put another way, while you can deploy and maneuver as is if units are in radio communication, there just is no way Civil War commanders could do that. Telegraph maybe, but most orders were verbal or written and delivered by courier.

That's every individual's choice of course, and I respect that. I just don't like to do it, and try to work things out with any prospective opponent before getting started.

_____________________________

"And I will show you where the Iron Crosses grow." Oberfeldwebel Rolf Steiner, The Cross of Iron

(in reply to balto)

Post #: 5

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/22/2020 3:53:00 PM

Talon_XBMCX

Posts: 220
Joined: 8/1/2008
Status: offline

I have recently purchased Antietam and Gettysburg. I have just about all the WW2 JTS titles and am now getting into the ACW titles (my wallet is fearing the upcoming JTS sale

) and am looking for recommendations. Would be happy to do a historic pbem. Can't say that I would be a worthy opponent, but it isn't always about winning as much as it is about having a good time.

Good health to you all!

(in reply to pz501)

Post #: 6

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/22/2020 3:56:47 PM

pkpowers

Posts: 412
Joined: 12/12/2000
From: midland,TX
Status: offline

any interest in trying a full 3 day Gettysburg or full Antietam or South Mountain? Let me know I'll play any scenario / any side .

(in reply to Talon_XBMCX)

Post #: 7

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/22/2020 5:05:34 PM

hellcat23

Posts: 43
Joined: 12/16/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

I have not played JT games in a looong time. You mentioned that people use WW2 tactics in ACW games. Can you explain what you mean by that? Thank you.

Yes I was referring to the kind of impossible overrun and encirclement moves that some players make that can remove big units and very quickly the backbone of the opposing force using these means. This could be with small cavalry units for example. Certainly this used to be a very common and frustrating experience although I think some of mechanics have been changed over the years to account for some of this.

This can result in some truly unbelievable and impossible outcomes especially where 1 side has cavalry available and the other side does not. Imagine first day of Gettysburg getting swallowed up and removed from the map by Buford. This put me off for a long time.

A good gentlepersons agreement 'if practicable' for these games at the outset should resolve such things.

(in reply to balto)

Post #: 8

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/22/2020 7:22:15 PM

pz501

Posts: 180
Joined: 10/1/2003
From: Southern Pennsylvania
Status: offline

This is a very good and gratifying discussion so far. I'm really impressed that there are more than a few that have an interest in the Tiller series.

About Gettysburg. A year and a half or so ago, I designed an enlarged Gettysburg scenario for Campaign Gettysburg that featured a map doubled in size that David Freer (Strela) of War Design Studio put together for me. The idea was that Players should have more options available to them than always having to fight at Gettysburg, so the map was extended much further south to Westminster, MD. This ensured that Meade's Pipe Creek Plan could be used, and that the Confederates could if they wanted to, try wide flanking maneuvers. Scenario length was increased to 4 days to better support any wide-ranging maneuvers, with supply and artillery ammunition also adjusted for that. Also more objectives were added to encourage some wider open play.

There were two variants: a historical one, and a what-if where the Confederates have some cavalry available at the start and full use was also made of the OOB the the late Doug Strickler (the original designer) had made that included a 4th Confederate Corps under D.H. Hill, and Union troops from the Military District of Washington involved.

Changes were made to the unit manpower counts for both sides, a slightly revised .pdt file was made (for a change to supply wagon movement) and unit/Leader ratings adjusted here and there after consulting various sources. Play testing (there were 4 of us) took place over about 2 months (we did complete the first day, and a part of the second). Unfortunately due to various issues, the scenario set couldn't be issued as part of a planned game update, and finally David Ok'd my posting it at the Blitzkrieg Wargame Club where it's now buried more or less deep inside of some now obscure thread.

Since then and to this day, I still tinker with the scenario (latest effort involves the handling of the "Cavalry Detachment" feature in the OOB, and more unit/Leader rating work.) I doubt the scenario will ever really get played (at least I've never heard of anyone using it), but for the research, learning more about the battle, and experience gained from using the editor, it was worth it. At least to me.

_____________________________

"And I will show you where the Iron Crosses grow." Oberfeldwebel Rolf Steiner, The Cross of Iron

(in reply to hellcat23)

Post #: 9

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/22/2020 7:43:56 PM

rommel222

Posts: 725
Joined: 9/21/2015
Status: offline

Greetings pz501,
I have all the JTS Civil War games and like them very much.
As a solo historical gamer, I only use civil war strategy and tactics.
I consult civil war reference books & battle atlas maps during play.
Using the Command Control option limits how many units can be accessed directly.
Another method is to play one side or hotseat and move some/most units and then let the AI finish each sides movements each turn.
Simulates lost or misinterpreted orders (fog of war).

(in reply to pz501)

Post #: 10

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/23/2020 4:42:54 PM

hellcat23

Posts: 43
Joined: 12/16/2011
Status: offline

I'd be interested in trying it. Does it work for vs AI play? From both sides? Where can it be found pz501?

Gettysburg is one of several ACW battles that are just so interesting to try different variants of.

Shout out to Scourge of War Gettysburg also and the amazing 3 days variants that RebBugler put together and can be found on the Norbsoft mod forums. That one is also a doozy. Even with so much extra time you still feel the pressure. There is an extended time version there too.

(in reply to rommel222)

Post #: 11

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/23/2020 10:33:48 PM

pz501

Posts: 180
Joined: 10/1/2003
From: Southern Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Here's a link to the package containing both the historical and what-if versions of Gettysburg.

I'm fairly impressed....I didn't realize that it's gotten all told, 78 downloads. I think that might be a decent amount for this sort of thing. I never have seen any AAR's about it though.

There is no AI for this at all. Two (really three) reasons: The AI can't really handle the map, the editor is pretty clumsy to use for doing AI - to me anyway - you can't do different strategies with the AI picking one (as in TOAW), and (honesty here) yours truly was just too lazy in the end! (How's that for full disclosure?)

I believe the link has a version that's maybe 2 iterations behind what I'm very slowly working on now. One day I'll finish this version if I can force myself to quit tinkering.

The link: https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/showthread.php?tid=72771&highlight=Gettysburg

_____________________________

"And I will show you where the Iron Crosses grow." Oberfeldwebel Rolf Steiner, The Cross of Iron

(in reply to hellcat23)

Post #: 12

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/24/2020 3:47:02 AM

simovitch

Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline

I play the Tiller ACW Campaigns and also belong to the ACWGC which is a good group of guys for sure. You can be as involved as you want with the "rank and role playing" but no one really cares if you do or don't although it is fun once and a while. The dedication of the senior members is the strength of the club and new members are treated exceptionally well.

Detaching regiments from a division or divisions from Corps is never a good idea because of disruption recovery. Part of every turn is spent verifying that I am not compromising the command and control system of my forces by wandering away from the parent leader chain.

There are weaknesses in the system but there is really no equal for great ACW pbem contests.

_____________________________

simovitch

(in reply to pz501)

Post #: 13

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/24/2020 5:21:22 AM

pz501

Posts: 180
Joined: 10/1/2003
From: Southern Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch

I play the Tiller ACW Campaigns and also belong to the ACWGC which is a good group of guys for sure. You can be as involved as you want with the "rank and role playing" but no one really cares if you do or don't although it is fun once and a while. The dedication of the senior members is the strength of the club and new members are treated exceptionally well.

Detaching regiments from a division or divisions from Corps is never a good idea because of disruption recovery. Part of every turn is spent verifying that I am not compromising the command and control system of my forces by wandering away from the parent leader chain.

There are weaknesses in the system but there is really no equal for great ACW pbem contests.

Thanks for the input regarding the Club! Maybe it's time that I re-evaluate my thinking about joining it. I wonder if there is still mandatory training, and having to be OK'd by a Training Officer prior to being allowed to play with other members. Or am I confusing things with another Organization?

Your additional explanation as to why Players shouldn't go willfully detaching units is better than mine (I forgot the system handicaps involved). As I said, I'm careful to discuss this any opponent prior to starting play, so there are no misunderstandings.

I agree there is currently no equal to the system when it comes to PBEM.

_____________________________

"And I will show you where the Iron Crosses grow." Oberfeldwebel Rolf Steiner, The Cross of Iron

(in reply to simovitch)

Post #: 14

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/24/2020 3:14:20 PM

simovitch

Posts: 5488
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline

quote:

I wonder if there is still mandatory training, and having to be OK'd by a Training Officer prior to being allowed to play with other members.

I believe that is still the case. It was a good experience for me, and I appreciated the fact that a Sr. member would take the time to teach me about the club and play a quick pbem game while we were at it.

Some combination of optional rules I don't like. For example allowing melee to happen during the main phase with "weak ZOC's" enabled allows a sort of blitzing through the lines to occur, which is akin to an operational scale WW2 tactic that really threw me for a loop in one game of Antietam I was playing. For most players it is best to keep strong ZOC's and only allow melees after all movement and combat is completed. Artillery capture rules are also a little wonky.

_____________________________

simovitch

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Post #: 15

RE: John Tiller American Civil War Games - 11/24/2020 8:00:40 PM

pz501

Posts: 180
Joined: 10/1/2003
From: Southern Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch

quote:

I believe that is still the case. It was a good experience for me, and I appreciated the fact that a Sr. member would take the time to teach me about the club and play a quick pbem game while we were at it.

Some combination of optional rules I don't like. For example allowing melee to happen during the main phase with "weak ZOC's" enabled allows a sort of blitzing through the lines to occur, which is akin to an operational scale WW2 tactic that really threw me for a loop in one game of Antietam I was playing. For most players it is best to keep strong ZOC's and only allow melees after all movement and combat is completed. Artillery capture rules are also a little wonky.

I went ahead and made out an application to join ACWGC. I won't know about this Club until I get some first hand experience, and it's time to find out. From what you've said it sounds like it could be rewarding. We'll see.

I very much agree with that comment about the ZOC's. Anything that helps keep the 1940's away from the 1860's is good in my opinion.

_____________________________

"And I will show you where the Iron Crosses grow." Oberfeldwebel Rolf Steiner, The Cross of Iron

(in reply to simovitch)