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The France '39 Exploit

 
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The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 3:16:56 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline 		I've been playing around with 1.00.08 since it came out and see that the minor fixes to French unit setups in North Africa and Syria are rather useless cosmetic changes that don't address the big problem still unresolved. The problem is that the French can trick themselves into getting into war with Italy very early on, like on turn 2 or 3. The problem is that in the regular 1939 scenario moving units out of Syria or Africa allows Italy to "join" the Axis. That allows France to then declare war on Italy very early on of Italy doesn't do so first.

What I found is that a clever Allied player will use the French fleet to raid the merchant shipping from Cagliari to the mainland and score big losses on Axis merchant shipping. I split the French surface fleet into 3 groups in one test and managed 15 hits against Axis MS in a single turn. What was most disturbing and phony was that Germany lost more MS than Italy did! What does German merchant shipping have to do with transporting Italian resources from one Italian port to another? Really pathetic modeling of Axis merchant shipping in the Med.

I saw that while each attack was limited to the 5 point flow of the route, multiple attacks could far exceed that limit. Alvaro really needs to make that a cumulative limit so no players can't take advantage of such a situation. Same with the Baltic routes, really unrealistic that multiple MS attacks can be made, should be limited to one per sea area as is the case with basically every other MS route. I managed several times to wipe out the entire Axis MS capacity before France fell.

The politics of the situation should be that if France moves units out of Africa or Syria Italy can join the Axis but only Italy can decide to declare war upon the Allies, not the Allies being able to then DoW Italy. Keep it more in line with history, France and Britain weren't going to declare war on Italy.

Unless Germany has a resource route of it's own in the Med it should never lose MS due to attacking shipping routes. I did conquer France in one game as Germany and did lose MS when the route from Vichy North Africa was attacked. That is reasonable but when Germany has no resources to ship then it should never have any MS in the Med. This is a way for the Allies to cheat Germany out of valuable MS while the Sitzkrieg is going on.

Since there is a separate Italy 1939 optional scenario let that one be the one where France or Britain can DoW Italy first. Let the original one force a more historic DoW situation for Italy.
Post #: 1
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 3:39:18 PM   
MagicMissile


Posts: 1629
Joined: 10/11/2014
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		I also think that the allies should not be allowed to attack Italy if Italy garrsions the Border with France properly.

But I think I have found a bug, in Beta U16 at least.

I started a hotseat campaign 1939 I did not move a single Axis counter just ended the turn. In the allied turn without moving a single unit I looked in the Warpanel and both the British and France can declare war on Italy from the start.

Seems like something is not correct there.

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 2
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 3:46:57 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline 		@MagicMissile - Was this in the normal 1939 scenario or the Italy optional one? I can see this being the case for the optional Italy 1939 scenario but not for the normal one. I play the normal one exclusively in hotseat mode and have not noticed this before.

In the normal 1939 scenario Italy should control when it goes to war regardless of what France does as far as garrison limits go.

(in reply to MagicMissile)
Post #: 3
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 3:47:40 PM   
MagicMissile


Posts: 1629
Joined: 10/11/2014
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		It was a normal 39 campaign under Beta 1,09.U16. I have also never seen it before. I just checked after your post. Usually as the allies you dont go to the war panel much in the early game so I guess it is easy to miss.

/MM

< Message edited by MagicMissile -- 11/30/2020 3:48:56 PM >

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 4
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 4:18:44 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 856
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I always thought it was that way. Neutrals cannot declare war but majors always could. So if England and France want to bring Italy in early, they could. Am I mistaken.

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(in reply to MagicMissile)
Post #: 5
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 4:23:23 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		It is not to the Allies benefit to DoW on Italy. Italy gains more production by being at war status and turning off the convoy than being Neutral. They also have plenty of MM to spare.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
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(in reply to MagicMissile)
Post #: 6
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 4:38:07 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

It is not to the Allies benefit to DoW on Italy. Italy gains more production by being at war status and turning off the convoy than being Neutral. They also have plenty of MM to spare.



@Alvaro - I beg to differ. I found it eminently beneficial to DoW Italy early as France as it allows France to use it's mighty fleet to trash Axis merchant shipping or force Italy to use Axis oil to move it's fleet out to attack. Better to whittle down the Italian fleet with the French navy than the UK's. This is now my standard way to play the Allies, move a few units out of Syria and Morocco to France to get that early DoW against Italy if Italy doesn't attack first. Any gain of Italian production pales in comparison to what it loses. Also what Germany loses as it loses MS in the Med transporting Italian resources. I regularly waste the Axis MS capacity and put a dent in the Italian navy doing this which vastly outweighs any slight production gain.

One other problem with this is that one can lose the entire French fleet in combat before France goes Vichy and then the French Vichy fleet magically appears. How do you fix that nonsense?

Please stop this ahistorical nonsense in the regular 1939 scenario, make it so that only Italy can decide when it actually goes to war with the Allies. In the 1939 Italian optional scenario then anything goes.

How does one turn off that Cagliari convoy? I just went into my game and there is no cancel X button for that route as there is when we set up trade with minors. It would be nice to be able to stop a trade route like the Italian Iron Ore one if we want to to avoid losing all Axis MS in the first months of the war.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 7
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 4:56:34 PM   
MagicMissile


Posts: 1629
Joined: 10/11/2014
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Yes seems I was wrong, I tell you, I play so much but still dont know the rules :). Still not sure if it is good. Why wouldnt you declare war a turn or 2 before you go under and just try to damage the Italian navy as much as possible before France exits the game?


/MM

(in reply to ago1000)
Post #: 8
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 4:58:19 PM   
MagicMissile


Posts: 1629
Joined: 10/11/2014
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		It is the mediterranean convoy route. Just cancel it under the convoy tab.

/MM

< Message edited by MagicMissile -- 11/30/2020 4:59:25 PM >

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 9
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 5:05:56 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline 		@MagicMissile - Thanks for the dope on turning off convoy routes, never really tried it on that right side of the info box. Still hope Alvaro fixes the German MS shipping Italian resources in the Med, just shouldn't be anything but Italian MS shipping Italian resources.

(in reply to MagicMissile)
Post #: 10
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 5:08:01 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

Yes seems I was wrong, I tell you, I play so much but still dont know the rules :). Still not sure if it is good. Why wouldnt you declare war a turn or 2 before you go under and just try to damage the Italian navy as much as possible before France exits the game?


/MM


If the Italian is smart he'll withhold his ships from combat until France surrenders. Still wouldn't be a problem if France can't DoW Italy early on unless Italy does something to break the rule like not garrisoning the border properly.

(in reply to MagicMissile)
Post #: 11
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 5:15:20 PM   
ago1000


Posts: 856
Joined: 8/6/2004
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Omnius


quote:

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

Yes seems I was wrong, I tell you, I play so much but still dont know the rules :). Still not sure if it is good. Why wouldnt you declare war a turn or 2 before you go under and just try to damage the Italian navy as much as possible before France exits the game?


/MM


If the Italian is smart he'll withhold his ships from combat until France surrenders. Still wouldn't be a problem if France can't DoW Italy early on unless Italy does something to break the rule like not garrisoning the border properly.

This might be a dumb question but, how do the Italians withhold their ships from combat? They can be attacked in port.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 11/30/2020 5:17:31 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 12
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 5:23:41 PM   
MagicMissile


Posts: 1629
Joined: 10/11/2014
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Yes of course it will hurt more in a 9 port but the Italian navy cant hide. And you dont care much about losses as the French obviously and any minor hit on the Italians is a win.

Was it world in flames which have a certain amount of Italian troops on the French borders stops any allied DoW? I might be mixing them up .

/MM

(in reply to ago1000)
Post #: 13
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 11/30/2020 5:54:11 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile

Yes of course it will hurt more in a 9 port but the Italian navy cant hide. And you dont care much about losses as the French obviously and any minor hit on the Italians is a win.

/MM


This is why it's important to force a more historical role for France early on, allowing Italy to decide when it wants to go to war and with whom. Alvaro really needs to fix it so that France can't drop it's garrison limits just to get Italy to join the Axis but not actually DoW anyone and then France does the dastardly ahistorical deed just to get it's navy in action against the Italians. Even if Italy turns off the Mediterranean trade route France still has a juicy target at Taranto and can afford to lose it's entire fleet since when France goes Vichy the Vichy fleet automatically appears.

(in reply to MagicMissile)
Post #: 14
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 12/1/2020 2:22:48 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Omnius has a good point about the French Fleet and the situation. I could ram it into Taranto and cause some damage even sinking some ships. I would take brutal losses but it didn't matter with a throw away fleet.

So I will have to find a solution that is counter balancing.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Omnius)
Post #: 15
RE: The France '39 Exploit - 12/1/2020 2:30:50 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 833
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Omnius has a good point about the French Fleet and the situation. I could ram it into Taranto and cause some damage even sinking some ships. I would take brutal losses but it didn't matter with a throw away fleet.

So I will have to find a solution that is counter balancing.


Awesome Alvaro! I make the France '39 early gambit standard operating procedure for the Allies since it does yield good benefits beyond what was historically done. Plus if France loses it's whole fleet in 1939-1940 how can you model that if France goes Vichy? Very suspect to have a brand new navy arrive if the original one got sunk in play. That's a real conundrum to solve.

This is why I'm so adamant about not allowing France to trigger war with Italy. The simplest solution is to not allow France to DoW Italy early on, even if France moves units out of Syria and North Africa. Perhaps even if Italy messes up it's border garrison requirements. Maybe no Italian border garrison is needed.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 16
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