Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Haha my first thought was how did a dreadnought get past the blockade? I have found some of my opponents set up a gigantic Adriatic blockade immediately and some don't at all. Some even try to push into that sea with their navy for whatever reason.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Thanks for the feedback everyone and I have to be honest here, after catching up on the more recent posts here, I've realized now that I did mix up the fact that this was in the WWI forum for the game. Just meaning much of what I wrote does lean more towards WWII thinking on subs than specifically for WWI.

If players are finding it hard to get their subs out to sea, or even keeping them alive, and more so in this game than in the WWII games and if the Intelligence hits are playing a significant role in that we are open to the possibility of some minor changes that could help.

Please keep the suggestions and ideas coming and we'll have a think on it as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

As I recall, the only tactical difference is that subs in the WW2 game have a slightly longer range (21 APs versus 18), which makes sense given technology improvements. Since sonar was a WW2 era invention, I wonder if ASW tech should be as strong as it is in the WW1 game? A slight shift in the balance between Advanced Subs and ASW tech would increase the survival rate of German subs.

Most of the differences are the strategic ones you have already listed. But you overlook a major strategic difference with the WW2 game - which are the NM hexes off the British coast and the possibility of shutting down British ports. That strategy does not exist in the WW2 game and it makes the attractions of investing in sub capability much greater for the German player in WW1, even if you have to keep building new ones to replace losses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Wikipedia says Room 40 didn't provide much real time sub location intelligence. It sounds like if the Admiralty had been more openminded, then more may have been possible, but in reality the information was rarely transmitted in a timely fashion convoys or warships at sea.

It doesn't sound to me like very many German submarines were sunk as a direct result of signals intelligence, if any.

A balanced approach would be for signals intelligence to detect submarines at the END of your turn rather than the beginning.

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land
is rather different

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

The other thing I've noticed is the subs in this game seem a lot worse at sinking warships. You get a lot of 0,0 odds...Is ASW stronger?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MVP7

I my experience the SC:WW1 submarines feel more durable than they are in WaW for some reason (and they did even before the naval bomber nerf).

Subs vs ASW is a tricky balance since sinking a sub demands that big horde of destroyers or they'll just get away and reinforce for pocket change. Using smaller or a spread out ASW fleet isn't really an option. It's in pretty sharp contrast to the usually very deadly naval combat of SC.

As soon as one side loses a number of destroyers (which, unlike subs, are extremely fragile) the other can start operating their subs with complete impunity on the trade routes and NM hexes. Even before that submarines can cause a lot of damage by stalking the likely paths of enemy ships. I don't think anything short of another capital can damage a capital ship as much as an ambush by a sub and nothing comes close to that MPP efficiency. Against AI you can pretty much sink half of the Entente fleet with subs and mines alone with surface fleet mainly acting as bait and cleanup.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

quote:

ORIGINAL: MVP7

I my experience the SC:WW1 submarines feel more durable than they are in WaW for some reason (and they did even before the naval bomber nerf).

Subs vs ASW is a tricky balance since sinking a sub demands that big horde of destroyers or they'll just get away and reinforce for pocket change. Using smaller or a spread out ASW fleet isn't really an option. It's in pretty sharp contrast to the usually very deadly naval combat of SC.

As soon as one side loses a number of destroyers (which, unlike subs, are extremely fragile) the other can start operating their subs with complete impunity on the trade routes and NM hexes. Even before that submarines can cause a lot of damage by stalking the likely paths of enemy ships. I don't think anything short of another capital can damage a capital ship as much as an ambush by a sub and nothing comes close to that MPP efficiency. Against AI you can pretty much sink half of the Entente fleet with subs and mines alone with surface fleet mainly acting as bait and cleanup.

Yeah, I suffered a severe setback as the British when one of my regular opponents sortied out with a portion of the IGN in the winter of 1914/15..scouted the Scotland-Norway blockade line with subs on silent mode, and went and attacked my strung out fleet...the result of a 2 turn fracas as he returned back to the Kiel and safety was the destruction of most of my destroyers, some light cruisers and a few DN's plus a lot of damaged ships. He lost or had damaged quite a few of his vessels, but lost none of his submarines.

It was a brilliantly executed raid and within a few turns I realized how screwed Great Britain was. I had little to no counter to his subs, who returned out to sea and tore up my convoy routes. I couldn't put the blockade back up without potentially losing the rest of the fleet..and forthwith, without the blockade, there was nothing that could put a damper on his National Morale. This and other factors resulted in the Entente losing the war.

It was a fantastic thing to witness though I was the victim of this high risk gambit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MVP7

I my experience the SC:WW1 submarines feel more durable than they are in WaW for some reason (and they did even before the naval bomber nerf).

Subs vs ASW is a tricky balance since sinking a sub demands that big horde of destroyers or they'll just get away and reinforce for pocket change. Using smaller or a spread out ASW fleet isn't really an option. It's in pretty sharp contrast to the usually very deadly naval combat of SC.

As soon as one side loses a number of destroyers (which, unlike subs, are extremely fragile) the other can start operating their subs with complete impunity on the trade routes and NM hexes. Even before that submarines can cause a lot of damage by stalking the likely paths of enemy ships. I don't think anything short of another capital can damage a capital ship as much as an ambush by a sub and nothing comes close to that MPP efficiency. Against AI you can pretty much sink half of the Entente fleet with subs and mines alone with surface fleet mainly acting as bait and cleanup.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Could you name the reason? Is this against human or AI? Also it is not just destroyers. Any allied ship attacking a sub reduces the sub supply and I have noticed very little damage to any attacking allied ships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MVP7

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
Could you name the reason? Is this against human or AI? Also it is not just destroyers. Any allied ship attacking a sub reduces the sub supply and I have noticed very little damage to any attacking allied ships.
[/quote
The worst thing to do is to try and send your subs to the NM hexes before sinking the enemy destroyers in the North Sea or by diverting them elsewhere. The NM hexes leave your subs too far from friendly ports and too close to the British ports so there's nothing to be gained there. After the allied destroyers are dealt with the German sub fleet can pretty much sink the rest of the Entente fleet on their own.

Exactly my point Not very historical!


_____________________________

(in reply to MVP7)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThisEndUp

I'm going have to take credit for that sortie against OldCrow. The trick was not to hit with the subs, just to spot juicy targets. There is a pretty significant penalty to running into an unspotted enemy ship, which GB pretty much has to take if he wants to counterattack, since he has no aircraft or subs at the start to do the spotting. Germany, on the other hand, starts with 2 subs. This is the strongest tactical advantage they have. So you spot, strike, then retreat in a defensive formation. Bonus points if you manage to strike when it's calm, then force him to counterattack in stormy weather.

An important thing to note is that to break the blockade, you must inflict at least 2:1 losses against the British and keep enough capital ships to act as a credible threat against a resumed blockade. Difficult but very achievable goal in 1914. Impossible once the British start using subs and airships to patrol the North Sea in early 1915. So if you don't sally in 1914, don't ever sally.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

I will admit I should have attacked your blockade with my subs first instead of trying to venture out and raid with them. (Because that seems to be the best option-which I think is the problem) And when I did I finally had some success against your dreadnaughts but how did this opponent have any success attacking your destroyers with subs? What?

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

I never really saw the IGN out in the North Sea again, but the threat of it coming back out was real, and his subs ruled the seas because I had only a few DD's and CL's with ASW left, which are the only ships that have a chance rambling with U-boats.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThisEndUp

The entire Kriegsmarine was actually at anchor off the coast of Iceland in mid-1915 ;) They waited there while I scouted out your positions with subs again, but most of your fleet was at port this time. It didn't seem wise to reveal their presence and start another fight I might lose, to sink the small targets that were in the open seas. Especially since the French and Italian navies were conspicuously absent from the Mediterranean at the time.

The important point is that subs are a potent tactical weapon that have uses beyond raiding convoy routes. You can scout, ambush pursuing capital ships, form zones of control that cost more to cross, etc. I'm sure someone else could come up with other creative uses as well. Even if you'd rather not involve your surface fleet, a swarm of lvl 1 or 2 subs can bring down a DN in one turn if attacking in sufficient numbers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

I will admit I should have attacked your blockade with my subs first instead of trying to venture out and raid with them. (Because that seems to be the best option-which I think is the problem) And when I did I finally had some success against your dreadnaughts but how did this opponent have any success attacking your destroyers with subs? What?

ThisEndUp used two submarines in silent mode and spotted most of my ships who had just deployed on the Scotland-Norway Blockade Line. Then, in the same turn, he attacked a lot of these ships with a significant portion of Germany's surface fleet, who must of sortied out the turn or two before, and crept up the coasts of Denmark and Norway. This was in the opening turns of 1914, before I had everything sorted.

The first strikes sunk a few DN's and other craft. During the next few turns, as I rallied and try to chase down his retreating fleet, my navy ran into mines and sub ambushes. A lot of his surface vessels were damaged and a few sunk, but what remained of my fleet, (about 60% of the initial total survived) was damaged, some having as little as a few points of strength left.

It was quite frankly, a high risk strategic surprise perfectly executed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Double subterfuge!

So while I thought I was chasing down the German Fleet to the Kiel Canal, you broke north? omg, what Daring!
Here I thought I was chasing down stragglers off Jutland and not being able to block the canal before your fleet escaped. Your IGN never went to the Baltic!! Jumping Jupiters, thats a bold maneuver my friend, and you must have a steel resolve to have sit there off Iceland that whole time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThisEndUp

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Double subterfuge!

So while I thought I was chasing down the German Fleet to the Kiel Canal, you broke north? omg, what Daring!
Here I thought I was chasing down stragglers off Jutland and not being able to block the canal before your fleet escaped. Your IGN never went to the Baltic!! Jumping Jupiters, thats a bold maneuver my friend, and you must have a steel resolve to have sit there off Iceland that whole time.

Oh no you misunderstand! The fleet did retreat in tatters past the canal in 1914. They were refitted at port for another sally in 1915, during which they sneakily sailed up to Iceland, and which I did not capitalise on. I see now I should have pounced anyway!

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
omg, what Daring!

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
ThisEndUp used two submarines in silent mode and spotted most of my ships

quote:

ORIGINAL: MVP7
As long as the sub level matches the ASW level of the destroyer the subs just don't seem to take that much damage. The sub will dive away and it still usually has some strength left at the end of enemy turn which is enough to slip away into friendly port.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

As it stands, I don't think subs stand much of a chance making it to the Atlantic, doing convoy raiding, and returning in one piece in any way that favors the Central Powers. They're more likely to take as much damage as they dish out in MPP, likely to get sunk which causes a NM swing, and to boot they also provide experience to the enemy ASW fleet! Not worth it against a competent human.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

quote:

ORIGINAL: MVP7
As long as the sub level matches the ASW level of the destroyer the subs just don't seem to take that much damage. The sub will dive away and it still usually has some strength left at the end of enemy turn which is enough to slip away into friendly port.

They take damage to a doom fleet because ALL enemy ships (even those like BB which have 0 anti-sub attack) reduce sub supply. Once the supply is low, the sub starts taking lots of damage. Not to mention it can't move very far to escape even if it lives an extra turn. Diving doesn't help very much against a smart opponent. He WILL find your sub again quickly and destroy it.

A smart opponent will also run scouts up and down above the Northern Blockade area to catch subs in silent mode which slipped thru. They only have so many movement points in silent mode and can't burn past the blockade in cruise mode cause they'll get stopped and detected. Using the French/Belgian ports to go thru the English Channel doesn't work either because a smart Entente opponent will scout this route with blimps/airplanes every turn. Your returning sub will get spotted and destroyed. I guess you could try during bad weather but good luck holding a sub near France for several turns waiting for rain hoping not to get spotted/detected.

The only exceptions to this are Mediterranean subs IF the Entente moved enough of their fleet away (Ottoman or Greek ports are close by so your sub might be able to escape if ambushed). Also the Russian sub in the Black Sea is really tough to kill. The Ottomans don't have enough ASW resources to force it to retreat from the Zonguldak red hexes. Russian subs can also safely raid the Swedish convoy route if they choose because they have friendly ports close by. But for German subs in the Atlantic? Forget it.

Time favors the Entente as they get more ships which can search for your subs. Entente subs and carriers are great at searching sub transit route zones. Just have a death ball ready in a centralized position.

Also tech favors the anti-sub fleet. Consider that even CL, CA, and yes BATTLECRUISERS (CC) get +1 sub attack per ASW tech researched (and upgraded). The HMS Indefatigable gets depth charges in this game.

As it stands, I don't think subs stand much of a chance making it to the Atlantic, doing convoy raiding, and returning in one piece in any way that favors the Central Powers. They're more likely to take as much damage as they dish out in MPP, likely to get sunk which causes a NM swing, and to boot they also provide experience to the enemy ASW fleet! Not worth it against a competent human.

quote:

As it stands, I don't think subs stand much of a chance making it to the Atlantic, doing convoy raiding, and returning in one piece in any way that favors the Central Powers. They're more likely to take as much damage as they dish out in MPP, likely to get sunk which causes a NM swing, and to boot they also provide experience to the enemy ASW fleet! Not worth it against a competent human.