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Should oil be repaired? - 12/18/2020 9:41:41 AM   
Heclapar

 

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Status: offline 		In alot of AARs I have seen the common practice of not repairing captured oil, but I do not understand it. Let's take for example my current PBEM where Palembang has been captured with 186 oil damaged. The total supply expenditure to repair it would be 186k supply, and for simplicity if we only look at the extra oil made while it is fully operational we would get 186 supply daily from the refinery, and 1674 fuel which directly converts to 1674 supply through heavy industry. That means that every day it would produce 1860 effective supply, and the repair would pay off in just 100 days. Seems to be a no brainer, unless I am potatoing the math
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RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/18/2020 10:18:41 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Heclapar
In alot of AARs I have seen the common practice of not repairing captured oil


No it is not the common practice. Maybe you mistook it for not repairing captured refineries? That on is indeed common - because Japan has lots excess refineries in Home Islands

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RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/18/2020 10:34:21 AM   
Heclapar

 

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Status: offline 		Perhaps I did mistake it for refineries. Will they ever need repair/expansion, or are they enough for the SRA oilfields? Also, side question, what about the Miri oil with its extremely small port, will it ever flow to brunei (there is no road) or is it just hard to transport?

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RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/18/2020 10:41:18 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Heclapar

Perhaps I did mistake it for refineries. Will they ever need repair/expansion, or are they enough for the SRA oilfields? Also, side question, what about the Miri oil with its extremely small port, will it ever flow to brunei (there is no road) or is it just hard to transport?

No need to expand refineries at all. It might be very unfortunate though if you get destroyed Palembang and then have to ship out oil instead of processing it on site. But even in this case repair is not needed for refs in my opinion cause supply is critical for Japan.
All oil better be repaired when captured in 41-early 42. Coming 43 and 4E bombing some oilfields are increasingly untenable and hence not worth repairing. Starting usually with Magwe

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RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/18/2020 12:07:33 PM   
Ian R

 

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Status: offline 		Rebuild the oil, ship oil excess to local refinery requirements out. You can actually put it places with HI (Singapore, Saigon etc) and it might seep northwards via China.

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RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/18/2020 1:34:02 PM   
Heclapar

 

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Status: offline 		So you could dump it in hong kong for example and it would flow all the way up to beijing/port arthur/korea?

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RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/18/2020 2:02:19 PM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Heclapar

So you could dump it in hong kong for example and it would flow all the way up to beijing/port arthur/korea?

Even in Singapore, flowing to Fusan, if it’s properly set up. Look around, there’ve been several threads discussing it, stressing the important points.

And talk with your opponent, not everyone considers it a fair method.

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RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/18/2020 2:40:05 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		It is often worthwhile, but not always. First, many players play DDB or similar version, in which refineries do NOT generate supply. It also will cost fuel to ship that OIL or FUEL back to the Home Islands, so it's not like you can convert it to supply in-place. A good rule of thumb is that an Oil center can produce about 7-8 supply in the end (you also expend fuel to move resources so HI can burn that with the fuel, but not as much).

So basically, the payback is roughly 5 months. In most cases, that is going to make sense. If Allied bombers are in range, though, I wouldn't bother.

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RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/18/2020 2:41:55 PM   
Lokasenna


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Status: offline 		Rebuilding Oil costs 1000 supply. Given that 10 Oil (so 1 point of Oil) = 9 Fuel, 1 Supply from a refinery, this point of Oil will recoup 1 supply from refineries per day. This means it will take 1000 days to "make back" your supply investment.

You should also care about the fuel, which you'll need for HI (which also gives you supply but at a lower ratio IIRC).

But in nearly ever case I've seen of late-war AARs, Supply is the Final Countdown. It's your choke point.

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RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/18/2020 3:07:43 PM   
alimentary

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Rebuilding Oil costs 1000 supply. Given that 10 Oil (so 1 point of Oil) = 9 Fuel, 1 Supply from a refinery, this point of Oil will recoup 1 supply from refineries per day. This means it will take 1000 days to "make back" your supply investment.

You should also care about the fuel, which you'll need for HI (which also gives you supply but at a lower ratio IIRC).

The 9 fuel points which go into Heavy Industry translate into 9 supply points coming out.

From the manual, 13.2.2.1 Heavy Industry

"One Heavy Industry Center requires the input of twenty resource points and two fuel points, and generates two heavy industry points and two supply points per day"


< Message edited by alimentary -- 12/18/2020 3:08:56 PM >

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RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/18/2020 5:34:46 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: alimentary

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Rebuilding Oil costs 1000 supply. Given that 10 Oil (so 1 point of Oil) = 9 Fuel, 1 Supply from a refinery, this point of Oil will recoup 1 supply from refineries per day. This means it will take 1000 days to "make back" your supply investment.

You should also care about the fuel, which you'll need for HI (which also gives you supply but at a lower ratio IIRC).

The 9 fuel points which go into Heavy Industry translate into 9 supply points coming out.

From the manual, 13.2.2.1 Heavy Industry

"One Heavy Industry Center requires the input of twenty resource points and two fuel points, and generates two heavy industry points and two supply points per day"



This is true, maybe Lokasenna's point is that there is a limit on the amount of fuel you can convert to supply anyway.....it's limited by the amount of HI. Unless you expand that, which has a 500-day payback in terms of supply, expanding OIL may get you to 1945 with an impressive fuel stockpile, but more than you can convert into supply

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RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/18/2020 7:20:57 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

expanding OIL


AFAIK, oil can't be expanded, only repaired.

quote:

If Allied bombers are in range, though, I wouldn't bother.


I say it depends on what you want to do, and how well you can defend the local.


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Post #: 12
RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/18/2020 7:46:45 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
...may get you to 1945 with an impressive fuel stockpile, but more than you can convert into supply

Only if you lost all your heavy fleet ships early. And at that point it already does not matter because Allies will be way ahead of schedule.
In all other cases (more usual games that is) fuel availability weighs heavily on Japan's decisions about their CV/BB movements. So no, JFBs generally don't have impressive fuel stockpiles no matter what

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RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/19/2020 3:01:36 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Heclapar

So you could dump it in Hong Kong for example and it would flow all the way up to beijing/port arthur/korea?


Look at road and rail connections - HK is a couple of hexes further off the grid than Canton, and there are secondary roads in the paths from there to a railhead; Haiphong looks further away but there are mostly rail, and a few road, connections all the way Korea. Singapore is similar, with an added road section between Cambodia and Vietnam. The oil will be pulled to where you need it if you have excess at one end and a port (Fusan being the best one for the IJ) calling for oil to put on tankers and then move it two hexes to the home islands. Hence the description "magic highway".

There is a hotkey that gives you supply spread numbers as a % rating - not exactly the same thing, but gives you an at least rough idea of how good a path there is, flowing from a location outwards. You are looking for strings of '99' hexes.

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RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/21/2020 3:51:04 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: alimentary

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Rebuilding Oil costs 1000 supply. Given that 10 Oil (so 1 point of Oil) = 9 Fuel, 1 Supply from a refinery, this point of Oil will recoup 1 supply from refineries per day. This means it will take 1000 days to "make back" your supply investment.

You should also care about the fuel, which you'll need for HI (which also gives you supply but at a lower ratio IIRC).

The 9 fuel points which go into Heavy Industry translate into 9 supply points coming out.

From the manual, 13.2.2.1 Heavy Industry

"One Heavy Industry Center requires the input of twenty resource points and two fuel points, and generates two heavy industry points and two supply points per day"



True enough - but it takes time, and you have to ship that fuel to the HI (in most cases where you're repairing Oil, e.g. Palembang, Miri, Java bases).

So if you don't have to ship the fuel by sea at all, you get your 1000 points of supply back in 333 days (roughly).

If you do have to ship it by sea, then you have to subtract the cost of shipping it. The best tankers you have for this are the Type-2 TL class, with a speed of 14/12 knots (or 6 hexes per day) and burns 3.9 fuel per hex. It carries 10800 fuel. Minimum 70 hexes from Palembang to Japan = 273 fuel minimum. Exactly how much this impacts your return to baseline supply depends on where you're pulling from, which tanker you're using, where it's going, and how often the convoy is... The popular Tonans (of which you get 4 or 5) use 5.11 fuel per hex.

But there is also the time factor: are you going to have enough time to turn that fuel into HI/supply points?

In my late war Japan game, I was looking at running out of Oil in Japan as my choke point before things started to fold, and the doomsday date for that was somewhere around March or April 1945, IIRC (I may be misremembering). Fuel would have run out for most HI around Soviet activation time - assuming it hadn't been bombed to hell before then.

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Post #: 15
RE: Should oil be repaired? - 12/21/2020 4:06:41 AM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		But that is if you are shipping it all the way to the HI and not to Singapore or Indochina.

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Post #: 16
RE: Should oil be repaired? - 1/2/2021 4:12:17 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

But that is if you are shipping it all the way to the HI and not to Singapore or Indochina.


Yes.

There is an argument to be made to slightly expand HI (and therefore fuel needs and therefore oil needs) in Java for exactly this reason.

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Post #: 17
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