PT Boat Usefulness

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

PT Boat Usefulness

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> PT Boat Usefulness

Page: [1] 2 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

PT Boat Usefulness - 12/22/2020 7:05:00 PM

RhinoDad

Posts: 221
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline

Does anyone have much use for allied PT Boats?

I do not have any luck with PT boats. This is early war �41 to April �42 it does not matter if they are at a port with aux ships or not. Nor does it matter if they are at a nearby port. Group of say 6 or more PT when encountering any number or type of Japanese ships, could be as small as 2 freighters or other small ships carrying troops or supplies the results are the same. It does not matter on enemy fleet size, the results are the same; PT boats run away. If Japanese have a PG or DD then occasionally one PT might be destroyed while fleeing.

Sequence is:
PT boat sights Japanese ships, combat is joined, PT boats get shot at for one round, then PT boats withdrawal from combat, often with no losses. However, they never launch torpedoes or engage with mg or 20mm cannon.

This is same result if landing is encountered and Japanese ships are surprised and attempting to get underway. Whatever range the battle starts at, the PT boats run with distance increasing until they can withdrawal. Given their purpose was to engage DD, TK, TP, gun boats, and supply vessels I would think when encountering them they might do something besides run. At least they would rapidly close at over 1,400 yrds/min.

I know that in reality it was considered a death sentence to serve on one, early on they often suffered from dud torpedoes and torpedo launch problems, as such the crews tended to still the torpedo fuel for trade and to numb themselves to the danger faced. As such they often only had one or two torpedoes ready for launch as the other 2 or 3 had no fuel. However, they generally did not run from combat and rather would attempt to close decisive torpedo range 500 to 1000 yrds while raking the targets decks, bridge with mg and cannon fire to suppress enemy fire, launch their torpedoes and then run. That is a close time of about 7 minutes. If the PT were carrying depth charges then they would try use those as well to attack enemy ships. Their small size and maneuverability often allowed them to successfully close. Destroyers would also be unable to bring main armament to bear at close range due to guns inability to depress enough.

In reality although somewhat inebriated the crews were known for their bravery and aggressiveness and met with some success. They did not see enemy ships, even destroyers which completely outclassed them, and run without even trying to get in close for a torpedo shot. That is how they had the success in interdicting enemy shipping. Many a surprised PT was rammed and sunk by fast escorts as they tried to start the un-running engines and get into a position for a torpedo run.

The torpedo malfunctions and unfueled torpedoes could easily be handled through game mechanics but why do they just run?

Is anyone else having success with them other than both disengaging and the occasional delay of the landing by a few days. Or the suspension of unloading of Japanese ships, only to resume again later in the day.

Post #: 1

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/22/2020 7:19:15 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline

Don't expect amazing results, but they serve several purposes.

1. To get best results, make sure TF has aggressive commander. I've had results that way vs. Transport TFs, but rarely against warships. They won't run if you do that.
2. The main purpose is to disrupt enemy movement; for example, if ships are bombarding a hex, they have to stop to engage the PT boats first. The risk for the IJN player is PTs might get a lucky hit, and might use enough OPS points to cause bombarding TF to linger too close in daylight, and be subject to air attack
3. They are disposable, so losses really don't matter much....this is one of the primary benefits
4. They can appear instantly in a base that threatened (provided supply is available)

Just don't have high expectations vs. DDs. Sometimes you get lucky though. Someone on here reported losing YAMATO to a PT via magazine explosion.

_____________________________

(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 2

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/22/2020 9:11:48 PM

GetAssista

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline

5. Moonless nights are your friend

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 3

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/22/2020 9:17:34 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

Their main use is to stop Bombardment TFs, often causing enemy to still be in range of land based air in the morning.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

(in reply to GetAssista)

Post #: 4

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/22/2020 9:30:48 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

Not just moonless nights, but overcast to stormy as well.

In one very famous game, the Yamato was sunk by ONE PT Boat Torpedo which set off a magazine. It must have been a pretty raunchy magazine with hot babes to do that.

In my current game, I have sunk a BB off Vigan as well as xAKs besides just damaging others. Don't ignore the .50 hits either as they can start fires that get out of control and sink the ship, which has also happened in my current game.

They also use up OPs points of the enemy TF which might leave them vulnerable to daylight bombing.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to GetAssista)

Post #: 5

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/22/2020 10:08:19 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Not just moonless nights, but overcast to stormy as well.

In one very famous game, the Yamato was sunk by ONE PT Boat Torpedo which set off a magazine. It must have been a pretty raunchy magazine with hot babes to do that.

In my current game, I have sunk a BB off Vigan as well as xAKs besides just damaging others. Don't ignore the .50 hits either as they can start fires that get out of control and sink the ship, which has also happened in my current game.

They also use up OPs points of the enemy TF which might leave them vulnerable to daylight bombing.

And they can make the big enemy ships waste a lot of their bombardment ammo.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 6

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/22/2020 10:38:11 PM

Ambassador

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline

Using several small squadrons at the same place would also help, rather than fewer, bigger TF with 15-20 boats or more. You�re looking at maximizing the incoming TF�s DL, to increase the odds of surprising them.

They�ll also be more effective later, when they get radar sets.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 7

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/22/2020 11:02:17 PM

dcpollay

Posts: 532
Joined: 11/22/2012
From: Upstate New York USA
Status: offline

I think your "run away" issue is likely having low-aggression commanders. As Q-ball said, swap out the task force commander if needed. And check them periodically; if the squadron suffers a sunken boat, you may lose that commander and he will be replaced by another bad one.

_____________________________

"It's all according to how your boogaloo situation stands, you understand."

Formerly known as Colonel Mustard, before I got Slitherine Syndrome.

(in reply to Ambassador)

Post #: 8

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/22/2020 11:37:22 PM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

Does anyone have much use for allied PT Boats?

I do not have any luck with PT boats. This is early war �41 to April �42 it does not matter if they are at a port with aux ships or not. Nor does it matter if they are at a nearby port. Group of say 6 or more PT when encountering any number or type of Japanese ships, could be as small as 2 freighters or other small ships carrying troops or supplies the results are the same. It does not matter on enemy fleet size, the results are the same; PT boats run away. If Japanese have a PG or DD then occasionally one PT might be destroyed while fleeing.

Sequence is:
PT boat sights Japanese ships, combat is joined, PT boats get shot at for one round, then PT boats withdrawal from combat, often with no losses. However, they never launch torpedoes or engage with mg or 20mm cannon.

This is same result if landing is encountered and Japanese ships are surprised and attempting to get underway. Whatever range the battle starts at, the PT boats run with distance increasing until they can withdrawal. Given their purpose was to engage DD, TK, TP, gun boats, and supply vessels I would think when encountering them they might do something besides run. At least they would rapidly close at over 1,400 yrds/min.

I know that in reality it was considered a death sentence to serve on one, early on they often suffered from dud torpedoes and torpedo launch problems, as such the crews tended to still the torpedo fuel for trade and to numb themselves to the danger faced. As such they often only had one or two torpedoes ready for launch as the other 2 or 3 had no fuel. However, they generally did not run from combat and rather would attempt to close decisive torpedo range 500 to 1000 yrds while raking the targets decks, bridge with mg and cannon fire to suppress enemy fire, launch their torpedoes and then run. That is a close time of about 7 minutes. If the PT were carrying depth charges then they would try use those as well to attack enemy ships. Their small size and maneuverability often allowed them to successfully close. Destroyers would also be unable to bring main armament to bear at close range due to guns inability to depress enough.

In reality although somewhat inebriated the crews were known for their bravery and aggressiveness and met with some success. They did not see enemy ships, even destroyers which completely outclassed them, and run without even trying to get in close for a torpedo shot. That is how they had the success in interdicting enemy shipping. Many a surprised PT was rammed and sunk by fast escorts as they tried to start the un-running engines and get into a position for a torpedo run.

The torpedo malfunctions and unfueled torpedoes could easily be handled through game mechanics but why do they just run?

Is anyone else having success with them other than both disengaging and the occasional delay of the landing by a few days. Or the suspension of unloading of Japanese ships, only to resume again later in the day.

Suggest:

1. Check ammo on TF. Even the most aggressive PT boat skipper will be reluctant to engage without any torpedoes or ammo.
2. Check TF Threat Tolerance setting.
3. Check TF commander aggressiveness.

My impression is that you're talking about the US PT boats that start at Luzon on Dec 7th? If so having low/no ammo seems the likely culprit.

(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 9

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 12:05:43 AM

Moltrey

Posts: 297
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline

I will usually run the Brit MTBs out of Hong Kong to Iba in the Philippines. Form a British MTB-only TF and then split the US ones in two TFs. As said, replace any low Aggression Skippers and then try like hell to organize a night action on Vigan and the other invasion targets.
I also try to send some US S-boat class subs with Agg COs in the area too, as they might "muddy the waters" a bit and could even get lucky with their Mk10 torpedoes.
Worth a shot!

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 10

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 12:54:02 AM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcpollay

I think your "run away" issue is likely having low-aggression commanders. As Q-ball said, swap out the task force commander if needed. And check them periodically; if the squadron suffers a sunken boat, you may lose that commander and he will be replaced by another bad one.

Actually, have a TF commander that is not also a PT Boat skipper if you need to. That way you won't lose the commander unless you lose the entire TF.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to dcpollay)

Post #: 11

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 2:22:35 AM

RhinoDad

Posts: 221
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline

Thank you for the replies. Will try replacing the commanders as suggested. Will also try using two groups of 3 rather that 6. Sounds like you are getting better results, more along the lines of what would be expected. Hopefully, now they will act less like TV episodes of McHale�s Navy.

FYI � They were fully fueled and armed. Did not matter if day night, cloudy or moonless. That only meant that they had farther to run. Even started out at 1000 and was feeling lucky. Oh, well guess the commanders were more interested in watching phosphorescent wakes than burning Japanese ships.

Some of the engagements were from the PT boats out of Manila, but they were fully armed and sailing out of well supplied base on day 3. Little too early to be low on supply, have damaged bases, or be wondering if dugout would be needing the boats for a lift out. Best results were from British boats moved out of Hong Kong. One or two tended to at least fire MG at freighters while running. One of these actually did fire a torpedo. But at 1000 would figure at least of few would have fired their weapons or launched torpedoes.

Thanks again for the helpful advise.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 12

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 2:27:29 AM

RhinoDad

Posts: 221
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline

Also just giving latest official patch a go. So many great changes from vanilla and 1st patch I had been playing on previously. Still trying to figure out how to take advantage of all the changes. It is bigger than moving from Witp to AE. Yes, It has been many years since giving it a go. This gaffer is having a blast having a go of it again.

(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 13

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 6:52:20 AM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

Thank you for the replies. Will try replacing the commanders as suggested. Will also try using two groups of 3 rather that 6. Sounds like you are getting better results, more along the lines of what would be expected. Hopefully, now they will act less like TV episodes of McHale�s Navy.

FYI � They were fully fueled and armed. Did not matter if day night, cloudy or moonless. That only meant that they had farther to run. Even started out at 1000 and was feeling lucky. Oh, well guess the commanders were more interested in watching phosphorescent wakes than burning Japanese ships.

Some of the engagements were from the PT boats out of Manila, but they were fully armed and sailing out of well supplied base on day 3. Little too early to be low on supply, have damaged bases, or be wondering if dugout would be needing the boats for a lift out. Best results were from British boats moved out of Hong Kong. One or two tended to at least fire MG at freighters while running. One of these actually did fire a torpedo. But at 1000 would figure at least of few would have fired their weapons or launched torpedoes.

Thanks again for the helpful advise.

Don't put too much emphasis on the range for torpedo attack. 1000 yards is not so great if you are behind the target ship trying to flee from you. Even broadside to the target, it has the chance to turn away. Ideal position is off the bow of the target with a PT boat on each side of the bow for a hammer and anvil attack.
PTs also did not stay in tight formation during an attack since that would allow concentration of enemy defensive fire. Each boat maneuvered independently while trying to keep the lead boat in sight. So a coordinated launch of torps would not be the norm. I am not sure, but from what I have seen of my PT attacks playing out in the animation, the game has abstracted this kind of attack fairly well - PTs rarely got good shots at targets.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 14

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 7:10:50 AM

Leandros

Posts: 1740
Joined: 3/5/2015
Status: offline

What I find is a flaw in the game is that quite often destroyers open fire, and destroy, the small, fast-running PTs at 10.000 yards in direct hits. Even fire torpdoes at them.
Otherwise, much good advice here - particularly using the best skippers available. Damaged enemy ships are also liable to be hit by a PT torpedo. I recently had the experience to sink (claimed, anyway) an enemy cruiser that way.

Any escorted cargo or troop transport are very hard to get near.

Fred

_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 15

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 9:08:04 AM

Alfred

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

Does anyone have much use for allied PT Boats?

I do not have any luck with PT boats. This is early war �41 to April �42 it does not matter if they are at a port with aux ships or not. Nor does it matter if they are at a nearby port. Group of say 6 or more PT when encountering any number or type of Japanese ships, could be as small as 2 freighters or other small ships carrying troops or supplies the results are the same. It does not matter on enemy fleet size, the results are the same; PT boats run away. If Japanese have a PG or DD then occasionally one PT might be destroyed while fleeing.

Sequence is:
PT boat sights Japanese ships, combat is joined, PT boats get shot at for one round, then PT boats withdrawal from combat, often with no losses. However, they never launch torpedoes or engage with mg or 20mm cannon.

This is same result if landing is encountered and Japanese ships are surprised and attempting to get underway. Whatever range the battle starts at, the PT boats run with distance increasing until they can withdrawal. Given their purpose was to engage DD, TK, TP, gun boats, and supply vessels I would think when encountering them they might do something besides run. At least they would rapidly close at over 1,400 yrds/min.

I know that in reality it was considered a death sentence to serve on one, early on they often suffered from dud torpedoes and torpedo launch problems, as such the crews tended to still the torpedo fuel for trade and to numb themselves to the danger faced. As such they often only had one or two torpedoes ready for launch as the other 2 or 3 had no fuel. However, they generally did not run from combat and rather would attempt to close decisive torpedo range 500 to 1000 yrds while raking the targets decks, bridge with mg and cannon fire to suppress enemy fire, launch their torpedoes and then run. That is a close time of about 7 minutes. If the PT were carrying depth charges then they would try use those as well to attack enemy ships. Their small size and maneuverability often allowed them to successfully close. Destroyers would also be unable to bring main armament to bear at close range due to guns inability to depress enough.

In reality although somewhat inebriated the crews were known for their bravery and aggressiveness and met with some success. They did not see enemy ships, even destroyers which completely outclassed them, and run without even trying to get in close for a torpedo shot. That is how they had the success in interdicting enemy shipping. Many a surprised PT was rammed and sunk by fast escorts as they tried to start the un-running engines and get into a position for a torpedo run.

The torpedo malfunctions and unfueled torpedoes could easily be handled through game mechanics but why do they just run?

Is anyone else having success with them other than both disengaging and the occasional delay of the landing by a few days. Or the suspension of unloading of Japanese ships, only to resume again later in the day.

Two obvious deficiencies.

1. You are not handling your PTs at all correctly.

2. The typical mistake of approaching AE with preconceived ideas of how it should play rather than accepting how it plays.

Copy the relevant text of the Combat Report and paste into a post. That won't provide all the necessary facts to properly explain your mistakes but it does provide a start. To date no relevant hard data about exactly what you are doing has been provided and consequently all the advice tendered to date is speculative.

AE is a game full of abstractions. It is always fatal to expect your own subjective interpretation of the historical record to be slavishly incorporated into the game code. There is simply no substitute to learning how the game handles the historical capabilities and outcomes. Historical outliers cannot be incorporated into game code.

Alfred

(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 16

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 10:23:17 AM

PaxMondo

Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
....

AE is a game full of abstractions. It is always fatal to expect your own subjective interpretation of the historical record to be slavishly incorporated into the game code. There is simply no substitute to learning how the game handles the historical capabilities and outcomes. Historical outliers cannot be incorporated into game code.

Alfred

However, the opposite can be quite helpful for me to keep the game realistic: when you see an outcome, puzzle out how in the context of the era (1940's, not 2020's) how this came about.

Remember 2 things about this game to help you moving forward.
1. There are now millions of play hours on it. it is a rock solid game.
2. There are NO bugs in this game. There are only features; almost all of which are historically accurate in the context of the 1940's. Those few which are not (historically accurate) are still features of this game. The latter list is quite small, rarely seen more than a couple of times per game (and since a game takes several real life years to complete many never even notice). Memory leakage is the only one you as a player can control by being sure to re-start the game engine often when playing against the AI. Often means once per day at least; most experienced players restart for each new turn particularly as a GC ages and the save file size grows. PBEM players by nature generally restart the game for every turn, so they rarely (if ever) experience memory leakage issues.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 17

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 2:54:52 PM

Randy Stead

Posts: 454
Joined: 12/23/2000
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

Speaking of PT boats and Dugout Doug; is his evacuation from Corregidor a part of the game? Are commanders from cut off garrisons evacuated in-game, or is it handled abstractly, much like my recent post about how gear gets to the rear?

While here, one other "historical outlier" I would like to mention: Can you pull off airborne assassinations such as what happened to Yamamoto? Do commanders get bumped off by in-game events like air raids? I remember many years ago when playing War in Russia, a Soviet commander, I think it was Vatutin, gets assassinated by Ukrainian nationalist partisans, as happened in real life.

I have seen nothing in the manual about the above two. I also wondered if you could do the Doolittle Raid, but reading carefully I think the game allows it, as I read about planes that can take off from, but cannot land on, aircraft carriers. Do AE players pull off stunts like the Doolittle Raid?

< Message edited by Randy Stead -- 12/23/2020 2:56:51 PM >

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 18

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 3:10:07 PM

alimentary

Posts: 142
Joined: 3/22/2010
Status: offline

With respect to the Doolittle Raid, I believe I remember seeing it mentioned many years back as something that would have been more work to allow in the engine than it would have been worth in terms of game play.

While you can indeed load land-based aircraft on a carrier and launch (but not recover) them, this launch can only be done in the context of a transfer mission. You can transfer them to a land base. You cannot perform any sort of attack mission while the squadron is based on the carrier.

There is no such thing as "shuttle bombing" where a plane launches from one place, attacks and then performs a planned landing at another. All strike missions launch and return to the same base or ship.

In some circumstances, you can get a similar effect. If your carrier is sunk (or damaged to the point where flight operations are not possible) while your aircraft are aloft on a mission then the planes will be reassigned to another carrier and will land there.

You can also sometimes perform a transfer in the morning and get off an attack mission from the new base in the afternoon. I have not experimented to determine how often or in what circumstances this effort will succeed.

(in reply to Randy Stead)

Post #: 19

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 3:55:28 PM

Ambassador

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: alimentary

With respect to the Doolittle Raid, I believe I remember seeing it mentioned many years back as something that would have been more work to allow in the engine than it would have been worth in terms of game play.

While you can indeed load land-based aircraft on a carrier and launch (but not recover) them, this launch can only be done in the context of a transfer mission. You can transfer them to a land base. You cannot perform any sort of attack mission while the squadron is based on the carrier.

There is no such thing as "shuttle bombing" where a plane launches from one place, attacks and then performs a planned landing at another. All strike missions launch and return to the same base or ship.

In some circumstances, you can get a similar effect. If your carrier is sunk (or damaged to the point where flight operations are not possible) while your aircraft are aloft on a mission then the planes will be reassigned to another carrier and will land there.

You can also sometimes perform a transfer in the morning and get off an attack mission from the new base in the afternoon. I have not experimented to determine how often or in what circumstances this effort will succeed.

Manual, section 7.0.1.1.1.
Only fighters, fighter-bombers, dive bombers and torpedo-bombers may be loaded on a CV.* If they�re land-based models, i.e. not Carrier Capable (nor Trained), they can only be loaded from port (not flown to), and will only be able to be flown off from the CV for a transfer.

They will also, most probably, prevent any operation from the carrier, as each non-Carrier Capable aircraft counts as four.

Level Bombers can�t be loaded on a CV (you can check it at the start of the Downfall scenario if you want).

* I believe it can be modded and it really depends more on the Carrier Capable quality, as there are Carrier Capable Recon aircrafts (F6F-5P). So, if you want to mod a Carrier Capable B-25 to reproduce (imperfectly) the Doolittle Raid, it would work. More or less. Rather less, as they�d have to land on the carrier after the strike. And you wouldn�t be limited to a single strike. And perhaps you�d have to make the B-25 DB or TB (even without a torpedo payload). More hassle than the utility would warrant indeed.

(in reply to alimentary)

Post #: 20

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 4:12:18 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

MacArthur does not die if he is in the Philippines when the Japanese overrun them. He reappears as historic when the SWPAC HQ arrives in Australia in 1942. If you fly him out from the Philippines with his HQ troops, you can even end up with two "Dugout Dougs", but this is not a bonus IMO!

If Yamamoto was transferring by air with his unit and the Allies got an interception (usually by LRCAP) of the transports, it is conceivable that he could be on one that got shot down but I have never seen mention of the passengers being killed when transports get shot down (but I don't watch the air animations). Don't waste time on it - you probably do not get enough SigInt info to know his movements anyway.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Randy Stead)

Post #: 21

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 4:51:08 PM

Randy Stead

Posts: 454
Joined: 12/23/2000
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

I know his death was quite a blow to Japanese operations, but I cannot help but wonder if had he survived, he may have had a positive influence on the recognition of the need for Japan to sue for peace. Perhaps he may even have persuaded the government and military leaders to give up before the dropping of the atomic bombs?

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 22

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 4:54:25 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

I know his death was quite a blow to Japanese operations, but I cannot help but wonder if had he survived, he may have had a positive influence on the recognition of the need for Japan to sue for peace. Perhaps he may even have persuaded the government and military leaders to give up before the dropping of the atomic bombs?

I seriously doubt that as there were people who tried to stop Hirohito's public announcement.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Randy Stead)

Post #: 23

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 5:00:02 PM

RhinoDad

Posts: 221
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline

BBfanboy

Figured range of torpedo launch might be important as code would probably have decreased chance of hitting at longer range.

Do not expect reality but surprised at lack of closing, not shooting and just running. PT should be by far the fastest thing on water so should be able to close if not destroyed. Was not expecting good shots or good performance, just not cowardice in the face of the enemy.

But thanks to the tips am confident that PT may actually not just flee.

WW2 era PT boats if on group patrol to fight in line or a V formation similar to a finger 4 of aircraft, unless laying smoke then it was abbreviated to maximize obscurity. It was found in the 30s that it was harder to hit a loose formation of bombers than it was to hit them acting individually. Acting in loose formation resulted in less hits on formation and increase target hits than acting individually. Same time frame also found the same to be true of destroyers making torpedo runs on battleship broadsides. So like planes PT would do their best to stay in loose formation, following lead, for both survival and success.

Torpedo attacks relied on a swarm of torpedoes entering the target area for a hit. It is not a hammer and anvil it is a spread/swarm of torpedoes each a few degrees separated that greatly increase the chance of a hit; same with falling bombs and naval salvos. PTs especially early on had a very high failure rate in launches, it took a number of boats acting as a group to achieve multiple launches.

A bow on bow shot was preferred, as it increased close and lowered torpedo run time, a chase resulted in a slower closing speed and longer run time. Deflection shot is between the two. 500 to 1000 was considered a decisive range and PT strived for that distance in order to get a launch, the same distance was aimed at by submariners. For a PT boat over this range it was slim and none for a hit and slim had left town. This range leaves a runtime of under 30 seconds. There is very little chance for a ship to maneuver in that time, any more time gave the target ample opportunity to avoid the torpedo. Especially when the torpedo was leaving a nice steam/phosphorous wake/trail in the water showing its line of travel. Average distance to target of fired torpedoes in pacific was close to 900 for subs and PTs. It was at this distance that accuracy for various torpedo settings were calibrated for. Outside of this range their accuracy dropped measurably, as if they were not inaccurate enough. Outside this range then who knows at what depth and bearing the torpedo would run; one had to also worry about being struck by your own torpedo as they had a tendency to run in circles. At the decisive range the torpedo would tend to circle through the target(s) before heading back towards you.

Also an attempted launch often enough resulted in damage and injury/death on PT boat, you are not going to carelessly waste a launch when doing so is conceivably going to result in an explosion of the Torp on deck. You tend to hold back until the risk has some possibility of paying off.

So although battle does not make for well coordinated attacks, lead boat fires torpedo then other boats in formation fire theirs. Unless on individual patrol, it was their tactic it was their training it was their practice. Just check out their training manuals from the time if you can get a hold of one; not too many PT sailors left to speak with. Same for bombers, lead releases bombs, other in formation release theirs. More damage to them less damage to you.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 24

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 5:04:39 PM

Randy Stead

Posts: 454
Joined: 12/23/2000
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

Quite possibly so. A lot of the senior military wanted to fight on simply because they feared being prosecuted as war criminals. Far better to go down fighting and die honourably than be hanged ignominiously as a common criminal. I'm currently rereading Stanley Weintraub's "The Last Great Victory" which details the efforts of the cabal to prohibit the surrender. I find it ironic that they waged war and committed atrocities in the name of the Emperor, but then were reluctant to take that same Emperor's counsel to heart.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 25

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 5:09:35 PM

RhinoDad

Posts: 221
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline

quote:

Two obvious deficiencies.

1. You are not handling your PTs at all correctly.

2. The typical mistake of approaching AE with preconceived ideas of how it should play rather than accepting how it plays.

Copy the relevant text of the Combat Report and paste into a post. That won't provide all the necessary facts to properly explain your mistakes but it does provide a start. To date no relevant hard data about exactly what you are doing has been provided and consequently all the advice tendered to date is speculative.

AE is a game full of abstractions. It is always fatal to expect your own subjective interpretation of the historical record to be slavishly incorporated into the game code. There is simply no substitute to learning how the game handles the historical capabilities and outcomes. Historical outliers cannot be incorporated into game code.

Good with number 1 that is why I asked.

Have to agree with PaxMondo. If one has a historical perspective than that is a good place to start and then figure out how program handles things and make adjustment. Part of the problem is refiguring the game mechanics having played a bit in Vanilla Witp AE and 1st patch then jumping to newest patch which is vary different.

Do not think it is much of a preconceived notion that a PT boat should not continually display cowardice in the face of the enemy. True it was my lack of game mechanics that probably caused it.

Also was just looking for general advice so only general information.

You blokes were very helpful. Thank you.

(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 26

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 5:17:56 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

This attack was not too bad:

quote:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Vigan at 80,73, Range 7,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
xAKL Banshu Maru #56
xAKL Choun Maru #21
xAKL Hinode Maru #20
xAKL Musashi Maru
xAKL Rokko Maru, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Toshi Maru #2
PB Akitsui Maru
xAK Tokusima Maru
xAK Kosei Maru
xAK Yamagiku Maru
xAK Toyokawa Maru, Shell hits 2
xAK Konan Maru
xAKL Arizama Maru
xAK Aki Maru
xAK Chowa Maru
xAKL Jinsan Maru
xAK Koyo Maru
xAK Mansei Maru
xAKL Oridono Maru
xAK Soyo Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Satsuma Maru, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Sugiyama Maru, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
xAKL Tensyo Maru
xAK Tsuyama Maru, Shell hits 4, heavy fires (also sank! )
xAKL Tohuku Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Ueizuru Maru, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
xAK Unkai Maru #6, Shell hits 2
xAKL Yosyu Maru, Shell hits 1
xAK Yasuteru Maru

Allied Ships
PT-31
PT-32
PT-33
PT-35
PT-41
PT Q-111
PT Q-112
PT Q-113, Shell hits 2, heavy fires

Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Japanese TF suspends unloading operations and begins to get underway
Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching!
Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 35% moonlight: 7,000 yards
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 7,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 7,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 7,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT-41 at 7,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT-32 at 7,000 yards
Range closes to 5,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages PB Akitsui Maru at 5,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT Q-111 at 5,000 yards
PT-41 engages xAK Ueizuru Maru at 5,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Konan Maru at 5,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Unkai Maru #6 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Tsuyama Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-33 engages xAK Satsuma Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-32 engages xAK Satsuma Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Yosyu Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT-41 at 2,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT-35 at 2,000 yards
PT-33 engages xAK Tsuyama Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT-32 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Oridono Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages PB Akitsui Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Yasuteru Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Unkai Maru #6 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Ueizuru Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT-32 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Mansei Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Toyokawa Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Rokko Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT Q-113 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Yasuteru Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-111 engages xAK Unkai Maru #6 at 2,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT-41 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Tsuyama Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Sugiyama Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Soyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Rokko Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages PB Akitsui Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT Q-112 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Unkai Maru #6 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Ueizuru Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-35 engages PB Akitsui Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT-32 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Mansei Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAKL Tohuku Maru at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
PT Q-112 engages xAK Soyo Maru at 3,000 yards
xAK Sugiyama Maru sunk by PT-35 at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages PB Akitsui Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT Q-112 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-111 engages xAK Unkai Maru #6 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Tsuyama Maru at 2,000 yards
PT-33 engages PB Akitsui Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Chowa Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Toyokawa Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Yamagiku Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT Q-113 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Yasuteru Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Unkai Maru #6 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Tsuyama Maru at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Soyo Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Akitsui Maru engages PT-32 at 2,000 yards
PT-31 engages PB Akitsui Maru at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
Range increases to 6,000 yards
PT Q-113 engages xAK Yasuteru Maru at 6,000 yards
PT-41 engages xAK Unkai Maru #6 at 6,000 yards
PT-33 engages xAK Koyo Maru at 6,000 yards
PT-31 engages xAK Yasuteru Maru at 6,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
Task forces break off...

)

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 27

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 5:20:43 PM

Randy Stead

Posts: 454
Joined: 12/23/2000
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline

Wow, that was a knife fight.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 28

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 5:21:10 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

However, this attack occurred next and I think that it was even better!

quote:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Vigan at 80,73, Range 2,000 Yards

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
E8N2 Dave: 2 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Ise, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
CA Mogami
DD Mikazuki
DD Okikaze

Allied Ships
PT-31
PT-32
PT-33
PT-35
PT-41, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
PT Q-111
PT Q-112, Shell hits 3, and is sunk
PT Q-113, Shell hits 11, and is sunk

Maximum visibility in Overcast Conditions and 35% moonlight: 3,000 yards
Range closes to 10,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 6,000 yards...
Range closes to 4,000 yards...
Range closes to 2,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 2,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 2,000 yards
DD Mikazuki engages PT Q-113 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-113 sunk by CA Mogami at 2,000 yards
CA Mogami engages PT-41 at 2,000 yards
DD Mikazuki engages PT-33 at 2,000 yards
DD Mikazuki engages PT-32 at 2,000 yards
CA Mogami engages PT-41 at 2,000 yards
PT Q-112 sunk by DD Mikazuki at 2,000 yards
BB Ise engages PT-33 at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages PT-33 at 2,000 yards
CA Mogami engages PT-33 at 2,000 yards
BB Ise engages PT-31 at 2,000 yards
BB Ise engages PT-33 at 2,000 yards
CA Mogami engages PT-41 at 2,000 yards
CA Mogami engages PT-35 at 2,000 yards
CA Mogami engages PT-32 at 2,000 yards
BB Ise engages PT-31 at 2,000 yards
DD Okikaze engages PT-35 at 2,000 yards
DD Mikazuki engages PT-41 at 2,000 yards
BB Ise engages PT-32 at 2,000 yards
CA Mogami engages PT-41 at 2,000 yards
CA Mogami engages PT-33 at 2,000 yards
DD Mikazuki engages PT-32 at 2,000 yards
CA Mogami engages PT-31 at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 3,000 yards
PT-41 sunk by CA Mogami at 3,000 yards
CA Mogami engages PT-31 at 3,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
BB Ise sunk by PT Q-111 at 2,000 yards
CA Mogami engages PT-33 at 2,000 yards
DD Mikazuki engages PT-33 at 2,000 yards
Bravo M. orders Allied TF to disengage
CA Mogami engages PT Q-111 at 2,000 yards
CA Mogami engages PT-33 at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
DD Mikazuki engages PT Q-111 at 5,000 yards
Task forces break off...

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 29

RE: PT Boat Usefulness - 12/23/2020 5:34:03 PM

RhinoDad

Posts: 221
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
....

AE is a game full of abstractions. It is always fatal to expect your own subjective interpretation of the historical record to be slavishly incorporated into the game code. There is simply no substitute to learning how the game handles the historical capabilities and outcomes. Historical outliers cannot be incorporated into game code.

Alfred

However, the opposite can be quite helpful for me to keep the game realistic: when you see an outcome, puzzle out how in the context of the era (1940's, not 2020's) how this came about.

Remember 2 things about this game to help you moving forward.
1. There are now millions of play hours on it. it is a rock solid game.
2. There are NO bugs in this game. There are only features; almost all of which are historically accurate in the context of the 1940's. Those few which are not (historically accurate) are still features of this game. The latter list is quite small, rarely seen more than a couple of times per game (and since a game takes several real life years to complete many never even notice). Memory leakage is the only one you as a player can control by being sure to re-start the game engine often when playing against the AI. Often means once per day at least; most experienced players restart for each new turn particularly as a GC ages and the save file size grows. PBEM players by nature generally restart the game for every turn, so they rarely (if ever) experience memory leakage issues.

I jumped from vanilla Witp AE and patch 1 to latest official patch. That is about a decade of features added and bugs fixed. Not to mention a much improved AI. It is a bigger change for me than Witp to Witp AE. To a great degree am restarting a steep learning curve. Keep finding myself finding a new feature and wishing I had found it a few turns back. Not much into new game but all the bugs and quirks of the first one seem to have been worked out; and the original had some pretty strange quirks. Added features are incredible and add great depth to game play. Only problem is trying to find it all out as forum has many years of changes incorporated into it so info is sometimes dated.

As one who is probably a bit older than your average game player it is nice to play a game that takes place in an era actually have the feel of the era and not a modernized subjective or cartoonish perspectives full of "You have to be kidding" moments. It is obvious that although spotty information is available that the homework was done. In the few areas that I notice a non historical feel it is rather small and insignificant. Also they are areas that have little if no information available on them. For instance many YPs are missing and equipment and armaments off. But if one really wants to get into the mud than that is what the editor is for.

Your dedication and quality work is very evident in the transition of the game. When playing a game is something of a way of life it is nice to have the game reflect such quality and soundness.

Heartfelt thanks to the work and effort that was put into this. You made an old gaffers day.

(in reply to PaxMondo)

Post #: 30