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Looking for advice regarding research of one plane type - 12/19/2020 9:34:15 PM   
Fr33andcl34r

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/9/2015
From: Central North Carolina
Status: offline 		I'm having the hardest time deciding on R&D for one plane. The ones I'm looking at are Ki-100-II, Ki-44-IIc, and Ki-43-IV. Out of the 3, I'm least interested in the Tojo, but of the 3 it's available the earliest. All 3 planes have maneuverability bands that surpass the P-51, but once again the Tojo leaves a bit to be desired. It's pretty close at the highest altitudes.

This is Scenario 2, vs a human opponent, and I decide upgrade paths. I do have other R&D for other fighters as well, so I'm looking at just these 3 for a few factories.

Edit: Forgot to mention that the big point of these 3 candidates is an armored SR1 CAP fighter that can catch a B-29 B. As of this post it's only 01 Feb 1942 in my playthrough.

< Message edited by Fr33andcl34r -- 12/20/2020 12:11:12 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/19/2020 10:14:11 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		It all depends on when you need the aircraft and what you will use it for.

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(in reply to Fr33andcl34r)
Post #: 2
RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/19/2020 10:25:18 PM   
Fr33andcl34r

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/9/2015
From: Central North Carolina
Status: offline 		The goal of one of these 3 will be an armored land-based SR1 CAP fighter with good maneuverability and hard hitting guns with okay range. I also have the Shinden, A6M8, and Ki-83 undergoing research so a bomber interceptor is a second priority. As far as when, I'm not sure. It's only February 42 right now.

< Message edited by Fr33andcl34r -- 12/20/2020 12:07:15 AM >

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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/20/2020 12:09:05 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		If you want “hard hitting guns” then that rules Tojo out, but they are very good vs allies into mid 1943.


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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/20/2020 12:15:08 AM   
Fr33andcl34r

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/9/2015
From: Central North Carolina
Status: offline 		You do have a valid point, but with the IIc Tojo available a year earlier than the other two candidates without any research, it does bump it up a little.

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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/20/2020 12:54:48 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		Some thoughts from me:

- Consider if using the Ki-100-I (rather than the II) changes your thinking. Fairly minor difference between the two models, but a considerable difference in arrival date.

- Oscar has a big MVR advantage. Even against the faster airplanes, that MVR advantaged can be leveraged to get some good mileage out it.

(in reply to Fr33andcl34r)
Post #: 6
RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/20/2020 1:39:11 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Also check the engines. Will the aircraft use a rare engine or one that has been produced for awhile but will less of a demand on it because of newer aircraft with different engines?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 7
RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/20/2020 8:21:14 AM   
Fr33andcl34r

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/9/2015
From: Central North Carolina
Status: offline 		Engine choices for the 3 are either the Ha-35 or the Ha-33, so there isn't a rarity issue at all. Like, hahaha, at ALL.
Looking at the Ki-100-I, it actually looks better than the II with better Mvr and Rng with only a speed decrease of 7 but we're still looking at 3/45 vs 4/45 for Ki-43-IV and 3/44 for Ki-44-IIc. Each plane has their own selling points. Speed and availability of the Tojo, Maneuver and range for Oscar, and Firepower for the Tony. Issues for each are the guns of the Tojo, gun value and availability and durability of the Oscar, and maneuver + availability for the Tony.
I'll need to think about this, but everyone's submissions to the discussion are appreciated.

Honestly I'm leaning towards either the Oscar or Tony, but if something bad happens (my opponent is known for sucker punches) and I end up needing the Tojo for its availability, then I will be S.O.L.

Edit: to decrease the amount of supply used in redoing some research, I'm going with Oscar and Tojo. I'm currently researching Oscar and Tojo for the ones available in a couple months, and will switch for endgame versions once they hit 30.

< Message edited by Fr33andcl34r -- 12/20/2020 9:26:00 AM >

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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/20/2020 12:14:46 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Depending upon how you do the Tony, once the research factories have repaired you can immediately move them down the line to the model that you want.

In other scenarios, the Tojo uses the correct engine which is apparently different than in the scenario that you are playing.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Fr33andcl34r)
Post #: 9
RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/20/2020 1:16:00 PM   
Fr33andcl34r

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/9/2015
From: Central North Carolina
Status: offline 		I did my initial research based around the Ha-32, Ha-33, Ha-34, Ha-35, Ha-43, and Ha-45 engines with a couple outliers. Scenario 2 is much better suited for IJ.

< Message edited by Fr33andcl34r -- 12/20/2020 1:22:30 PM >

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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/20/2020 1:58:40 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		Last Tojo is good as CAP against everything Allies have in 43 except 4E, much better than any flimsy Oscar. Later Thunderbolts will chew up almost everything you put against them anyway, if not on layered CAP. Tony-100s can be good but only if you are allowed to skip along R&D chain and hence start on researching the late models early enough to get them in 43. Later the plane is too slow to get full potential out of those guns. Oscars are generally a bait in a layered CAP plus escort ablative armor, not main CAP fighters

(in reply to Fr33andcl34r)
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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/20/2020 4:27:51 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Only in the Scenario 2 does the Tojo not have the HA-34 engine and I think that has been fixed in the latest incarnation.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 12
RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/20/2020 4:40:28 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		In the interests of full disclosure, I really don't like the Tojo. There's a nice period of the game where it's king, but it falls off a cliff very sharply after 1944 rolls around.

quote:

Edit: Forgot to mention that the big point of these 3 candidates is an armored SR1 CAP fighter that can catch a B-29 B. As of this post it's only 01 Feb 1942 in my playthrough.


I think your initial premise is somewhat flawed - if it's a B-29 killer that you're looking for, then you're not likely to find it in the pool of SR 1 fighters, you're looking at the more advanced airframes like the Frank, the Ki-83, the Ki-102a or the Ki-94.

My preference is for a mix of Oscar/Tony as SR1 CAP. The Oscar as phenomenal low altitude MVR ratings, and so can dance very well even with later planes provided it can engage on those terms. The Tony I consider as essentially meat shields for other aircraft, but it has a fairly potent weapons package to hit hard against bombers.

Both those planes can do both those roles till the end of the game, while I feel the Tojo struggles. I think it's mainly down to the 12.7mm guns having to do a lot of lifting for the Tojo, which leaves it feeling quite weedy when the rest of the IJA fighter line-up is starting to get 20mm cannons added to the loadout. The Tojo B with the 40mm cannons doesn't count, as it's an amazingly inaccurate weapon.

(in reply to GetAssista)
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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/21/2020 4:35:55 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Oscar has a big MVR advantage. Even against the faster airplanes, that MVR advantaged can be leveraged to get some good mileage out it.


The Oscar is a relatively 'slow' plane for late war, and its MVR goes out the window if the speed delta between two A/C is above a certain level. Now in fighter combat speed is considered at the time of encounter, abstractly. So it means that planes will not be considered to be moving at full speed at all times, but against faster Allied fighters that MVR factor is not so prevalent.

That being said, the Oscar is still useful in a limited roll.

quote:

Tony-100s can be good but only if you are allowed to skip along R&D chain


And you are, but check with your opponent, as Allied players tend to frown upon this 'tactic'.

quote:

I'm going with Oscar and Tojo.


Given the choices open to you its probably the best combo.

_____________________________

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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/21/2020 5:05:22 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

The Oscar is a relatively 'slow' plane for late war, and its MVR goes out the window if the speed delta between two A/C is above a certain level. Now in fighter combat speed is considered at the time of encounter, abstractly. So it means that planes will not be considered to be moving at full speed at all times, but against faster Allied fighters that MVR factor is not so prevalent.


Worth considering Alfred's post here, particularly point 3.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4036178

Even if the last model (IV) Oscar fails the check, it is likely to be comparable in terms of MVR with a P-47 at lower altitudes.

That's big.


(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 15
RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/22/2020 12:21:43 AM   
Fr33andcl34r

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/9/2015
From: Central North Carolina
Status: offline 		I am researching the Frank and Ki-83, so that's not an issue. I just want any aircraft that late in the war to be able to catch the Superfortress if it has the chance. I decided this in mid December 41 when my Nates couldn't catch B-17s bombing my oilfields despite having CAP right freakin' there.

My premise for continuing Tojo research is that I already have 4 factories researching the mid-42 Tojo and don't want to crash the economy doing a whole bunch of changes. Believe me, I'd prefer the Tony and Oscar myself. I will at least have one of them. Maybe after the IIc Tojo comes online I can change them over to the Tony. *shrug*

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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/22/2020 12:35:39 AM   
Fr33andcl34r

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/9/2015
From: Central North Carolina
Status: offline 		I am allowed to skip R&D chain, and I definitely will. My opponent started it first with P-38s in Rangoon in mid January 42.

(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/22/2020 3:57:06 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fr33andcl34r

I am allowed to skip R&D chain, and I definitely will. My opponent started it first with P-38s in Rangoon in mid January 42.



That's totally untrue. Your opponent can't skip the 'R&D chain' as he has no control over it. Only Japan may control her economy, the Allies take what they get when they historically got it.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Fr33andcl34r)
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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/22/2020 4:01:50 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

The Oscar is a relatively 'slow' plane for late war, and its MVR goes out the window if the speed delta between two A/C is above a certain level. Now in fighter combat speed is considered at the time of encounter, abstractly. So it means that planes will not be considered to be moving at full speed at all times, but against faster Allied fighters that MVR factor is not so prevalent.


Worth considering Alfred's post here, particularly point 3.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4036178

Even if the last model (IV) Oscar fails the check, it is likely to be comparable in terms of MVR with a P-47 at lower altitudes.

That's big.


Thanks for the reference. Said better than the way I was explaining, but I did know it was something like that.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/22/2020 4:05:06 AM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
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From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline 		If you move air units and do the right things, you could possibly get some p-38 units to Rangoon by the end of January or beginning of February. P-38E if I remember right....GP

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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/22/2020 4:33:17 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

If you move air units and do the right things, you could possibly get some p-38 units to Rangoon by the end of January or beginning of February. P-38E if I remember right....GP


That may be so, but its not like you can get any plane earlier than normally available as the Allies.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to btd64)
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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/24/2020 3:22:35 PM   
Fr33andcl34r

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/9/2015
From: Central North Carolina
Status: offline 		I should have been more clear with what I meant in my last comment. I was salty over some exploits to get P-38Es in Rangoon in mid-January 42 (RIP Oscars and Zeros), and we don't have rules against skipping the R&D chain.
Soooo, I will be skipping the R&D chain.

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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/24/2020 3:42:12 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline 		What exploit ? If he got P-38’s there, it’s because he probably upgraded/downgraded the restricted units. There’s no exploit there, he lost other airframes to get those (maybe more than he got).

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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/24/2020 7:11:42 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

and we don't have rules against skipping the R&D chain.
Soooo, I will be skipping the R&D chain.


I opened a thread on this a while back, and some very experienced Allied players weren't even aware that it could be done.

Your opponent may be in this category. Be kind and mention it to him to see where he stands. If it were myself, I would.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Ambassador)
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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/25/2020 1:27:48 AM   
Fr33andcl34r

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/9/2015
From: Central North Carolina
Status: offline 		I guess it's not really an exploit, but he did something with P-38 squadrons on US west coast and ended up giving the planes to the AVG groups in Burma.

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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/25/2020 1:29:34 AM   
Fr33andcl34r

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/9/2015
From: Central North Carolina
Status: offline 		My opponent's advisor goes by the name of Evoken. I think he's pretty active here. But at the start he was all about giving me advantages to prolong the war. Even gave me advice on a Mersing gambit.

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-Great shot Kido, that was one in a million!

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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/25/2020 4:55:49 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		One can get some P-38s out in the wild early but in generally costs a lot more airframes of older models to do so. And there are no replacements. As someone mentioned the Allies cannot adjust their production. And be happy your Nates could not catch the 17s. If they did you would have a lot fewer Nates and he would have some 17 aces.

(in reply to Fr33andcl34r)
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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/25/2020 9:07:19 AM   
Fr33andcl34r

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/9/2015
From: Central North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

And be happy your Nates could not catch the 17s. If they did you would have a lot fewer Nates and he would have some 17 aces.



Miri is at half production now due to those bombers. I'd rather lose the Nates than expend the supply needed to fix all that damage. Won't be 100% again until mid/late 1943.

_____________________________

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RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/25/2020 9:12:53 AM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fr33andcl34r


quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

And be happy your Nates could not catch the 17s. If they did you would have a lot fewer Nates and he would have some 17 aces.



Miri is at half production now due to those bombers. I'd rather lose the Nates than expend the supply needed to fix all that damage. Won't be 100% again until mid/late 1943.

Miri starts off at half production, nothing to do with bombing.

(in reply to Fr33andcl34r)
Post #: 29
RE: Looking for advice regarding research of one plane ... - 12/25/2020 9:21:27 AM   
Fr33andcl34r

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 9/9/2015
From: Central North Carolina
Status: offline 		Give me a second to remove my foot from my mouth...
And if it isn't obvious this IS my first rodeo.


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