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- 8/14/2003 8:07:18 AM   
uncle joe

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 8/12/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Belisarius
[B]Don't mean to be a wise-@ss, but for you who want a printed manual - don't you own a printer? :confused: And if not, at least around here the print shops have pretty decent fares. [/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I see most of those individuals have successfully avoided comprehending the point I was making, especially Belisarius. It isn't about whether or not someone has a printer, has the extra 12 bucks or whatever to run out to Kinkos to print it, or whether or not it is going to end up as a never read, unused manual collecting dust in an attic. It's about companies such as Matrix cutting corners by not including something that, up until a few years ago, was considered to be a standard. Much in the same way that instead of jewel cases being used, some games come in paper envelopes, and we the consumer adjust to this change without raising our collective voices.

I have been playing wargames since the Avalon Hill days and have a pretty good sized collection of board games. I might have missed it, but I didn't hear an outcry for companies to start putting manuals in PDF form instead of having a printed manual. Notice I said "instead of" and not "in addition to" People say how great it is that it is on PDF because it is searchable and can be updated. How in the hell does this preclude printing a manual as well? Answer: It doesn't. They can put it out on PDF AND included a printed manual - what a concept. For those of you who don't want the printed manual, throw it in the garbage. For those like myself who have a massive collection of wargames that have all come with manuals, we'd like that to continue without companies expecting us to have it printed at our own expense. I guess I'm a voice in the wilderness when it comes to this topic, but I'm not afraid to raise the bullshit flag when something like this occurs. You fanboys out there flame me and continue to sing the praises of Matrix, but what they did is wrong, and nobody can convince me otherwise.

In a few years when companies start charging extra for... oh let's say they start charging five bucks to download a patch....I'll be wanting to hear the same indivuduals defending this and saying how it's a good thing, because the principle is the same as what's going on here.

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 31
- 8/14/2003 8:39:45 AM   
"Joss" Osborne

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 5/17/2003
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by uncle joe
[B]I have been playing wargames since the Avalon Hill days and have a pretty good sized collection of board games. I might have missed it, but I didn't hear an outcry for companies to start putting manuals in PDF form instead of having a printed manual. [/B][/QUOTE]


Ya know I have to agree with you there ... I mean back in 1964 when Avalon Hill produced "Afrika Korps" I remember telling my Dad,

"You ought to write Avalon Hill a letter for me or call them on the telephone. I demand that this paper manual be written in .pdf format so I can store it on my computer. That way I could search for the contents"....

Dad: "Well son, I'd do that for you except for one thing..."

Me: "What's that dad?"

Dad: "What's a computer?"




quote:

For those of you who don't want the printed manual, throw it in the garbage.


Good advice, I usually do this when I lose my first PBEM match....


quote:

For those like myself who have a massive collection of wargames that have all come with manuals, we'd like that to continue without companies expecting us to have it printed at our own expense.



First, I happen to own a large colelction of wargames, both computer and boardgames, and I don't remember voting for you as my spokesman.


quote:

I guess I'm a voice in the wilderness when it comes to this topic, but I'm not afraid to raise the bullshit flag when something like this occurs. You fanboys out there flame me and continue to sing the praises of Matrix, but what they did is wrong, and nobody can convince me otherwise.



You make this sound like a moral injustice has been commited....like Matrix is involved in some illegal plot. For the most part, the people on this forum have given you the oppportunity to express your views. This also includes the man at the top of Matrix games, David Heath. Who very politely responded to your question and asked you be allowed to present your views. Not something you find in any company much less a game company.

You however seem content to just rail away with such a closed mindedness expressed by your quote:"nobody can convince me otherwise."

It's been quite some time since I've seen such moronic buffoonery actually dragged out in public. Probabaly not since the last one of Mike Tyson's well known antics ... so in that vein,all I have to say to you, sir is:

"I take my hand off to you"


Out.

_____________________________

Regards,

Joe "Joss" Osborne

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 32
- 8/14/2003 8:57:09 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline 		Your view is clear: The missing hard copy manual is poor customer relations.

That’s your view and you are entitled to it.

Considering that I live on the other side of the earth, a $10 manual costs me AUD$20 plus an extra AUD$5 in shipping.

Would you pay $25 for a hard copy manual?

And considering the box is so much smaller, I save another AUD$5 in shipping – whooo!

That’s AUD$30 passed directly onto the consumer – me :)

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 33
- 8/14/2003 9:38:42 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Hmm as we speak I have a box of manuals beside my right foot.

Only thing they are good for is holding up my right foot too.

Now lets see, anyone here not actually aware that I think Hearts of Iron is the worst #%$#^%@^^%#$$#^$%@#@ piece of garbage ever made?

Ok if I had spent 50 bucks on that game, a manual would only have given me a weapon to beat you to death with.

Korsun Pocket without a manual.... oh friggin bummer.

I would rather have to get off my unmotivated worthless butt and reference a pdf manual, and actually read it on the monitor not while taking a dump on the toilet, than have a nice shiny manual that is more or less a waste of paper if it looks like these manuals here in this box (which I might of thumbed through thrice while on the toilet).

Whether Matrix Games CAN make a manual is neither here nor there. Whether every other schmuck computer game company can do it is also of no consequence.
It ain't making these manuals at my feet worth anything more just cause eeeeeeveryone was doing it.

Not purchasing games from a company with a track record like Matrix Games where making sure the game was even worth buying, based solely on not getting a pathetic waste of paper manual, is an indication of limited logic in my opinion.

And I have seen Battlefront's manual for Combat Mission. Big whooooooopdeeeedooo. They make a good game, and their manual has nothing to do with their games being good.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 34
- 8/14/2003 12:23:29 PM   
PeckingFury

 

Posts: 124
Joined: 2/12/2003
Status: offline 		This is not a fast paced RTS game, its turn based for christ sakes!!!! why is hitting alt tab to an open pdf doc so GD difficult. I suppose everytime a patch is put out that changes the printed holy grail of literature, a brand new manual should be redone as well.

Come on tell us the real meaning of the gripe about no manual, its those nice smelling, freshly inked pages isnt it. ;)

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 35
You have a point, but with the wrong game developer - 8/14/2003 1:48:09 PM   
degen


Posts: 166
Joined: 9/8/2000
From: California
Status: offline 		I sympathize with you uncle joe, but I think you are picking on the wrong game developer. If you want to vent then you should complain about the games that come with a manual but then push a $20 strategy guide on you. Most of the RTS/RPG/FPS come with printed manuals that have nice pictures and supposedly helpful information, but the manuals lack any depth in explaining how the games work. Instead the game developers pack all the information you wanted to know in the separate strategy guide under the guise of giving 'walkthroughs of missions.' What a rip off to have to pay for a separate guide to learn a game's insights.

I much prefer the approach that Matrix Games is following as it allows you to start playing the game and then gives you the detailed manual to consult as needed. Yeah, it would be nice if Matrix included a printed manual with the game, but paying $60 instead of $50 just to have the manual would not be worth it to me.

_____________________________

"I would have much rather that he had given me one more division" - Rommel after receiving his field marshall baton

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 36
Re: You have a point, but with the wrong game developer - 8/14/2003 2:38:36 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by degen
[B]Most of the RTS/RPG/FPS come with printed manuals that have nice pictures and supposedly helpful information, but the manuals lack any depth in explaining how the games work. Instead the game developers pack all the information you wanted to know in the separate strategy guide under the guise of giving 'walkthroughs of missions.' What a rip off to have to pay for a separate guide to learn a game's insights. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hehe so true. I have Rise of Nations (bought in weak moment), and the 'manual' provides nothing - NOTHING - that the tutorial doesn't do. :p The only plus is the quick AI commands keymap at the backside...

Joe, I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. See the difference? I know you (and reasonably others as well) think that the game should include a printed manual, for you it's important to the value of the game.

What I don't agree with is your assumption that this is bad PR for Matrixgames. It's all about marketing and for many (most? - I don't know) players/customers, a printed manual is NOT a value adding characteristic for the product.

_____________________________


Got StuG?

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 37
- 8/14/2003 2:57:26 PM   
BrubakerII


Posts: 538
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Adelaide Australia
Status: offline 		Personally, I like a hard copy manual. But I am a book collector as well :rolleyes: Like most here I have a huge collection of mauals and no where to store them. I have read only half about once. If a company has to take 'shortcuts' in order to survive, then so be it. If DH or MS or RM were driving around ion Ferraris as still not giving us a manual, well okay you got an argument. But they're not and and neither are most others in this genre so we're stuck with the pdf's. End of story.

Out of interest what I would like to see though is a manual that is incorporated into a game - an extension of the pop up display if you like. Right click on a balloon - it opens the Acrobat reader to the relevant section etc. Some fiddly coding to be sure but a wirth successor to the paper version.

brubaker

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 38
- 8/14/2003 5:42:00 PM   
Marc von Martial


Posts: 10875
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Bonn, Germany
Status: offline 		Okay,

let me step in here. We could add full printed manuals and players guide of course. But we allways sayed if we do so the games will retail for 5-7$ (if not more cause of shipping) more.

So we though about it and came up with the solution to keep the prices where it is, include a smaller "Players Guide" / "Tutorial" that we can afford without raising the price and shipping costs (after all we have to cut even or there won´t be any new wargames from us).

The vast majority of customers is okay with the PDF manual and the alternative of getting a Kinkos manual for a few bucks if they really want it. That way we don´t press the extra cost of the full printed manual on those that don´t need it necessarily but still offer those that badly want a printed manual the opportunity to get it via Kinkos.

It think this is a really fair deal, since it keeps the price for everybody low, but those that demand the full printed manual can order it via Kinkos, the money Kinkos charges is around the same we would have to rise the price to cut even with production costs. So for those that want the full printed manual there´s no difference in price (since the game would be more expensive with a full printed manual anyway). Fair deal IMHO.

It´s not that I don´t like printed stuff ;)

_____________________________

Marc von Martial
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(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 39
- 8/14/2003 5:50:57 PM   
Tbone3336

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 11/26/2002
From: Philadelphia, PA
Status: offline 		As has been stated numerous times in this thread already, it is clear this (no printed manual) is done as a cost saving measure. For matrix to have included the manual in hard copy would have probably raised the price another $5.00 per unit to the customer (assuming Matrix receives a discount on bulk printing). Now instead of $50 you have at minimum a $55 game (more for overseas buyers).

Given the state of Wargaming in the past several years as far as profitablity, (there are not many publisher as you can see nowadays to begin with due to the lack of profitablity), any cost cutting that has to be done should come from none program items first. I would rather not have a printed manual than say the development stop short of them including the combat advisor in the game. Or adding the scenario designer component. Would a great manual be nice, absolutely, but not at the expense of future games being made. Just my .02 cents.

_____________________________

We aim to please, unless there is a clear headshot.

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Post #: 40
- 8/14/2003 6:10:08 PM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
[B]We could add full printed manuals and players guide of course. But we allways sayed if we do so the games will retail for 5-7$ (if not more cause of shipping) more.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I was mid post this afternoon when Ross closed this thread!! Good to see it open again.

Look there is no issue here - to my great surprise there is a printed manual with this game.

Marc, I'd hunch that the costs may even be higher, for color is so important to the interface of this game that only a colored printed rulebook would do it justice if one was to be provided.

What I'm suspecting is that there's a tad of mischief in this thread going by its name. This forum was well in operation for a potential buyer to check the situation re manuals and cater easily for all things caveat emptor.

_____________________________


(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 41
- 8/14/2003 8:22:03 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Man I am so glad I have 20 years of playing real wargames on the table :)

As long as I stick to really good computer wargames that stick with quality design concepts I don't even need a manual.

Stick that in yer craw manual lovers :)

When I look at Korsun Pocket the design is already fairly transparent to me. Aside from learning a few keyboard commands there isn't much to say.

Tanks don't attack cities, always hinge defenses on defensible terrain, coordinate attacks with several units types for combined arms benefits. Heck I wouldn't play a serious wargame, if serious wargame logic wasn't inherent in the design.

I will support Brubakers comment, (which others have commented on elsewhere in wargame land in the past).
Game designers need to exploit more fully the power of our computers. In todays world, my computer should be capable of running the program and being able to open a window simultaneously with the manual readable while the game is still yet running.
If I can do this with some of the more advanced non game applications out there, why can't I do it with a stupid game?

I can see that being an advanced machine function for some of the more current 3d online games perhaps, but it should not be any real challenge to our slow motion plodding wargames.

Or is it possible, and I risk offending knowngly, that perhaps just a few to many game designers, are only marginally skilled at programming when compared to people that build applications like word processors?

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 42
- 8/14/2003 10:48:17 PM   
Mac_MatrixForum


Posts: 295
Joined: 4/11/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
[B]As long as I stick to really good computer wargames that stick with quality design concepts I don't even need a manual.
[/B][/QUOTE]
You put it so nicely that I just had to stick my nose into ;). My opinion is that if a product needs a manual to be used there's something wrong. This definitely doesn't mean it's dumbed down but rather that somebody spent some time to read and follow modern user interface design guidelines.

Of course there are exceptions as some products that are aimed at doing a particular thing as well as possible may not be newbie friendly but then there is usually a training course involved anyway. They are products that are used for countless hours in long periods so when you have learned to use the program it works as efficiently as possible. Not like games that may be played once in a while and you should not need to spend a lot of time relearning the tricks. Simulations however are a kind of a game that will need thick manuals but there the authentic operation and earning process is part of the fun.

When I'm bored of getting creamed by my opponent or I have discovered some detail I want to know I'll read the manual. A perfect manual to me is indeed one that is in electronic form so that I can alt-tab and search but that is also updated by the developers as formulas get tweaked in updates. Add to that a thorough list of (rules) changes for patches and I'm all happy.

In the perfect world there is a reusable, at least as good as paper quality electronic media but we're not there yet.
[QUOTE][B]
When I look at Korsun Pocket the design is already fairly transparent to me. Aside from learning a few keyboard commands there isn't much to say.[/B][/QUOTE]
The printed tutorial is spot on. It's a good assumption that players will most likely want to browse it while playing the tutorial (unless the tutorial is completely in-game).
[QUOTE][B]
Game designers need to exploit more fully the power of our computers. In todays world, my computer should be capable of running the program and being able to open a window simultaneously with the manual readable while the game is still yet running.
...
Or is it possible, and I risk offending knowngly, that perhaps just a few to many game designers, are only marginally skilled at programming when compared to people that build applications like word processors? [/B][/QUOTE]
Not having alt-tab is rather inexcusable to me. Well at least for a strategy game but sometimes I get an instant messenger message while playing and I'm not particularly amused if the game crashes. There are sometimes technical complications but this is an important feature.

It's nice that there's also a lot of constructive discussion in this thread. Now if somebody could just change the undeserved title :eek:.

_____________________________

Markku "Macroz" Rontu
"Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Captain John J. Sheridan, Babylon 5

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 43
Response... - 8/14/2003 11:38:01 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Uncle Joe,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by uncle joe
[B]Well, I see most of those individuals have successfully avoided comprehending the point I was making, especially Belisarius. It isn't about whether or not someone has a printer, has the extra 12 bucks or whatever to run out to Kinkos to print it, or whether or not it is going to end up as a never read, unused manual collecting dust in an attic. It's about companies such as Matrix cutting corners by not including something that, up until a few years ago, was considered to be a standard. Much in the same way that instead of jewel cases being used, some games come in paper envelopes, and we the consumer adjust to this change without raising our collective voices.

FYI, I can go out and pick up a printed UV manual at my Kinko's for $2.95, which is a far cry from $12. Certainly, if you have to have it shipped it costs more, but with the newer printer-friendly manuals this really is not an issue for most folks with a printer and/or a local Kinko's. I feel that we've found a very good, affordable compromise. We can't sell to retail stores without a box, so we don't have the option to cut costs there. We also provide a printed Player's Guide with every game, which serves as an introductory/tutorial manual. Most games I get these days, the Player's Guide we provide is equivalent to the entire manual without any additional PDF support.

quote:

I have been playing wargames since the Avalon Hill days and have a pretty good sized collection of board games. I might have missed it, but I didn't hear an outcry for companies to start putting manuals in PDF form instead of having a printed manual. Notice I said "instead of" and not "in addition to" People say how great it is that it is on PDF because it is searchable and can be updated. How in the hell does this preclude printing a manual as well? Answer: It doesn't. They can put it out on PDF AND included a printed manual - what a concept. For those of you who don't want the printed manual, throw it in the garbage. For those like myself who have a massive collection of wargames that have all come with manuals, we'd like that to continue without companies expecting us to have it printed at our own expense. I guess I'm a voice in the wilderness when it comes to this topic, but I'm not afraid to raise the bullshit flag when something like this occurs. You fanboys out there flame me and continue to sing the praises of Matrix, but what they did is wrong, and nobody can convince me otherwise.


It's certainly your right to feel that way but please look at the very narrow focus of what you're saying and realize that we did include both a PDF and a printed manual, within the limits of our budget. We're not printing or selling quantities here like Half-Life or Grand Theft Auto. Our volume discounts are not significant. No one here disputes that we could print more paper and make less money, but I assure you there is no rip-off. Folks who say they like this combination of print and PDF are in the majority based on our own research. You can use the "fanboy" dismissal if you like, but I think we've found a good middle ground that works for everyone. We're providing as much value as we can while paying our developers and staying in business to make more wargames for you in the future.

quote:

In a few years when companies start charging extra for... oh let's say they start charging five bucks to download a patch....I'll be wanting to hear the same indivuduals defending this and saying how it's a good thing, because the principle is the same as what's going on here. [/B][/QUOTE]

You see a slippery slope here that doesn't exist. The point is not to screw the wargamer and to look for new ways to squeeze blood from a stone. We're doing everything we can to give as much value as possible to our customers. In our initial wave of releases, there was no printed documentation. We have since made a deal with Kinko's and started providing printed documentation with every game. I realize you want more, but you should turn around and realize that the slope you think is going down is actually going up. With each passing month, we're giving you more for your money, not less. :)

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 44
- 8/14/2003 11:39:49 PM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Classic. More energy defending Matrix from the odd detractor than talking about the game itself. Yay, Uncle Joe is a complainer. That's totally acceptable and cool for him. What about Korsun Pocket??

Tomo

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 45
I havent got this game YET !!.........an I am new to he... - 8/15/2003 1:23:37 AM   
bagpuss

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Northwest UK
Status: offline 		I totally agree with uncle joes views,I understand his sense of upset regarding no manual in games nowadays ......but its the big companies that should be derided an dissed on their forums ....from what I see matrixgames arent a big company ,an its all down too costs really .....as long as you CAN access the manual in the game ....whats the problem ....
btw I do think its sh*tty the way bigger games companies fob off their paying customer ......but from what I read here ....matrix games are "OK" guys to me .....coming here an answering posts etc

anyway just my opinion ....
cheers
bagpuss

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 46
- 8/15/2003 2:32:16 AM   
Snigbert

 

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
Status: offline 		[B]It's been quite some time since I've seen such moronic buffoonery actually dragged out in public. Probabaly not since the last one of Mike Tyson's well known antics ... so in that vein,all I have to say to you, sir is:[/B]

I think Uncle Joe has every right to complain, the fact that he seems to be in the minority here doesn't diminish the merits of his argument. However, as I said before, I dont have any problem with Matrix's policy on manuals. If the majority of people aren't going to use their manual, why should everyone have to pay the extra cost? If a percentage of customers are willing to pay the extra price required for a printed manual, let them go to Kinkos. In this case the utilitarian approach is ideal, in my opinion.

_____________________________

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"He has weapons of mass destruction- the world's deadliest weapons- which pose a direct threat to the

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Post #: 47
- 8/15/2003 2:43:41 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		I AM a fanboy of Matrix Games, and where the heck is my button to prove it (I was told it was in the mail ages ago :) )

Matrix Games has yet to give me a shoddy product, so why shouldn't I be positive.

Matrix Games has bent over backwards so often giving me cool stuff for free too.

I don't mind printing the words Steel Panthers World at War one danged bit.

Sure there will be people that will complain about say KP not having a manual. Excuse me while I put your complaint where it belongs.
There are always people that complain, I think some people complain the way some people enjoy sex. They get off on it.

For the record I am also an Avalon Hill fanboy. An SPI fanboy. A Tamiya fanboy. A TSR fanboy and a fanboy of a few anime companies :)
I don't mind saying nice things about companies that deliver.

No manual sheeesh what a dumb thing to gripe about.

Now if KP crashed during routine install, if it would not play on industry standard video cards, if the game saves were unstable, if the AI was no better than a dullwitted grade 3 female. THEN you would have a reason to whine.

No manual sheesh....whiner.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 48
- 8/15/2003 10:16:27 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		I just ran a scientific single blind test! Printed the manual in 5 minutes on laser, got the spiral binder maker, got a plastic cover, chop chop. Opened my eyes and here sits a very well laid out, illustrated and bound printed manual.

I printed pages 5 - 48. If people don't want historical commentary (which I look forward to reading in the "little room" tonight) take 10 pages off. Don't want contents pages? Take off another 3.

Industry practice over the past 2-3 years now makes it very clear that whatever the economics, printed manuals are an exception and not the norm. It matters not whether I support this.

However, Matrix has taken two steps in this area worthy of praise - and dare anyone call me a fanboy of one company or the other!

1) They've offered a unique elink and consumer deal with Kinkos (in Australia no such beast exists and with a name like that, will likely never do so!) 2) As we've all noted they have also included a fairly comprehensive printed Training Manual which I'm making my way through now.

Typos and word omissions do exist in that manual and a little more care could have been taken (remembering I'm a guy that writes manuals like these for another company so may of course one day be open to the same criticism) but imo, Matrix appears overtly to have shown an awareness to this debate and taken 2 unique steps to answer it. Well done.

One future improvement I'd offer will be to list the formats of manuals (printed or otherwise) on each game's web page and box. I swear I do remember seeing something like this on KP's page but can no longer find it. Anyway, such action will seal the case so far as caveat emptor goes - though the existence and openness of forums such as these are meritorious in that regard.

Adam.

_____________________________


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Post #: 49
- 8/15/2003 10:27:14 AM   
brent_2

 

Posts: 1990
Joined: 3/27/2001
From: Rheingau, Hesse, DE
Status: offline 		"little room"!!??!!! [SIZE=3]"little room"!!??!!! [/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][COLOR=crimson]"little room"!!??!!! [/COLOR][/SIZE]

I'm beside myself with anger, how dare you slander my kingdom


btw PDF manuals and the Kinkos deal are a good deal imho

(in reply to uncle joe)
Post #: 50
- 8/15/2003 10:52:20 AM   
Adam Parker


Posts: 1848
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: Melbourne Australia
Status: offline 		Be careful where you put your candle if the power is still out :D We gamers have to care for one another.

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