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Strange battle in China - 12/29/2020 7:23:02 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Scen 001v5
Allies

The opening battle in Tsingsing yielded a baffling result.
I got soundly beaten but inflicted lots of casualties on Japs,
even though I had tons of (-) modifiers.



Ground combat at Tsingsing (90,40)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 28266 troops, 281 guns, 101 vehicles, Assault Value = 905
Defending force 2557 troops, 16 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 112

Japanese adjusted assault: 611
Allied adjusted defense: 13

Japanese assault odds: 47 to 1 (fort level 1)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Tsingsing !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(-), preparation(-), morale(-)experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
2002 casualties reported
Squads: 5 destroyed, 208 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 26 disabled

Allied ground losses:
975 casualties reported
Squads: 40 destroyed, 105 disabled
Non Combat: 15 destroyed, 14 disabled
Engineers: 3 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 8 (4 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Units retreated 1

Assaulting units:
41st Division
37th Division
4th Ind.Mixed Brigade
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
1/19th Chinese Corps

< Message edited by Yaab -- 12/29/2020 8:11:24 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/29/2020 7:53:20 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Never heard of Tsingsing and it is not on the base list in stock, so I cannot check the terrain type.
It looks to me like your unit fled before the full weight of combat fell on it. The terrain may have helped them survive the initial firing (artillery) and allowed them to inflict lots of casualties before running - I am guessing wooded rough terrain, or maybe mountain. You got good die rolls too.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 2
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/29/2020 8:07:55 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		It is a base added by AndyMac in his updated scen001. The terrain is Mountain.

Actually, my rolls were dire. You alwyas benefit from the terrain(+) modifier, so all other rolls went against me, yet still I inflicted 2000 casualties on the Japs. I checked my notes for this battle, and the previous casualties record was 400. Go figure

< Message edited by Yaab -- 12/29/2020 8:10:46 AM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 3
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/29/2020 11:42:52 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		The enemy also shock attacked which can drastically increase their damage. At the start of that battle, the raw AV as about 8:1 in the enemy's favor and then yours was tripled due to the terrain plus another 20% due to the level 1 forts.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 4
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/29/2020 12:12:11 PM   
Psaeko

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 6/30/2020
Status: offline 		Do note that the enemy suffered relatively few destructions. With some support, those Japanese disabled squads can be recovered relatively quickly compared to complete destruction.

EDIT: To add onto that, it is always useful to remember that the final AV comparison only decides the final battle result (retreat, fort reduction, collapsing assault). Devices in LCUs deal their damage independently from that. A good example is Japanese tank action against Chinese units that lack AT weaponry. An assault might end with odds stacked heavily against the Japanese, but end in the suppression or destruction of a large number of Chinese squads with barely any tank losses. That is one of the reason I've seen Alfred and other veterans argue against looking at AV scores as the end-all for troop strength.

< Message edited by Psaeko -- 12/29/2020 1:33:23 PM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 5
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/29/2020 5:36:25 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

plus another 20% due to the level 1 forts.


Level one forts are a 10% boost.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Psaeko)
Post #: 6
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/29/2020 5:42:56 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Never heard of Tsingsing and it is not on the base list in stock


Sing Sing is a prison in upstate NY. Its not on the map because its in the eastern USA.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 7
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/29/2020 5:44:33 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		All that said, I don't really see anything unusual about the battle.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 8
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/29/2020 7:44:24 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

plus another 20% due to the level 1 forts.


Level one forts are a 10% boost.


I thought that it was 20% per level of forts. I will have to check. Thank you.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 9
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/29/2020 8:09:40 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

plus another 20% due to the level 1 forts.


Level one forts are a 10% boost.


I thought that it was 20% per level of forts. I will have to check. Thank you.

I am remembering the same as rustysi - 10% for the first level and 15% for the next level and 20% per level thereafter? I remember pegging level 5 forts as the point where you get past a full 1X increase in defensive AV.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 10
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/29/2020 9:01:36 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

plus another 20% due to the level 1 forts.


Level one forts are a 10% boost.


I thought that it was 20% per level of forts. I will have to check. Thank you.

I am remembering the same as rustysi - 10% for the first level and 15% for the next level and 20% per level thereafter? I remember pegging level 5 forts as the point where you get past a full 1X increase in defensive AV.


I looked in a pdf manual plus I searched for "fortification" and "defensive bonus" but I could not find the percentages.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 11
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/29/2020 9:37:09 PM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		I made these notes for myself back in 2017, but subtract marks because I didn't include the reference.

Oops, let me just shrink that image...






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by jdsrae -- 12/29/2020 9:40:21 PM >

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no SolInvictus): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 12
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/29/2020 11:28:55 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Thank you.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to jdsrae)
Post #: 13
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/30/2020 12:44:34 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Made a copy of that jdsrae, thanks.

_____________________________



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Post #: 14
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/30/2020 1:50:15 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

All that said, I don't really see anything unusual about the battle.


Normally, this opening battle goes like this:


Ground combat at Tsingsing (90,40)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 28266 troops, 281 guns, 101 vehicles, Assault Value = 905
Defending force 2557 troops, 16 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 112

Japanese adjusted assault: 720
Allied adjusted defense: 13

Japanese assault odds: 55 to 1 (fort level 1)
Japanese forces CAPTURE Tsingsing !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(+), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
177 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 19 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
2348 casualties reported
Squads: 83 destroyed, 52 disabled
Non Combat: 44 destroyed, 11 disabled
Engineers: 6 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 17 (8 destroyed, 9 disabled)
Units retreated 1

Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
41st Division
37th Division
4th Ind.Mixed Brigade
6th Medium Field Artillery Regiment

Defending units:
1/19th Chinese Corps

< Message edited by Yaab -- 12/30/2020 2:32:09 PM >

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 15
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/30/2020 8:10:05 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Normally, this opening battle goes like this:


I see several less (-)'s up there, could just be more die rolls passed.

Besides what's normal in this game? I stopped looking for that a long time ago.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 16
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/30/2020 10:31:31 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

Besides what's normal in this game? . . .


To expect the unexpected.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 17
RE: Strange battle in China - 12/31/2020 2:38:36 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

Besides what's normal in this game? . . .


To expect the unexpected.


No one expects the Spanish Inquisition. But really they should if answerable to Madrid.

Alfred

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 18
RE: Strange battle in China - 1/3/2021 10:30:38 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		For a momemnt I thought my good shooting was owing to Japs overstacking the hex.

I play with the stacking limits. The hex stacking limit is 35,000. Jap troops in total occupy 34,000 space. Does land overstacking only incur supply penalties? Seems to me it could also work like an overstacked airfield being bombarded by ships - more casualties for overstacking side.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 1/3/2021 10:33:10 AM >

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 19
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