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"Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/25/2020 12:13:55 AM

pacman14k

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I'm trying to understand SAM systems bit better including the radars and other sensors. I see this "generic TV camera" listed under quite a few systems, sometimes with some incredible ranges. Example, the SA-17 has 2x "Generic TV Camera" - a "visual, target tracking and identification TV camera" with a range of 80 nm! This is 15 nm more than the Chair Back A which is also associated with the SA-17. I'm sure I've seen a TV camera with a range of 100 nm also.

Are these ranges for real? The other weird thing is, presumably they are cued by some other sensor - surely they can't be the primary search system? In which case their ranges would limited to the range of the cueing sensor (see range of the Chair Back). When I place an SA-17 on the map and view its range rings, it only goes out to a max range of 65 nm (ie the Chair Back). Why aren't the ranges of these "generic TV camera" systems displayed?

Thanks!

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/25/2020 1:51:15 AM

KnightHawk75

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@pacman14k range etc depends on the generation + model in use for 'Generic TV Camera' (same for FLIR\IRST\etc).
They aren't displayed as rings because far as I know there is no ring\range setting for showing for IR\EO sensors, I suppose could be added in the future if there was enough demand.

ID	Name	Comments	RangeMax	VisualClassificationZoomLevel	VisualDetectionZoomLevel
2728	Generic TV Camera	1st Gen, Surveillance	15.0	2.0	1.0
2777	Generic TV Camera	1st Gen, Weapon Director	40.0	4.0	0.0
4576	Generic TV Camera	3rd Gen, Surveillance	30.0	20.0	2.0
4598	Generic TV Camera	2nd Gen, Surveillance, 8x Magnification	30.0	8.0	2.0
4599	Generic TV Camera	3rd Gen, Target Tracking And Identification	100.0	20.0	0.0
4600	Generic TV Camera	2nd Gen, Target Tracking And Identification	80.0	8.0	0.0
4601	Generic TV Camera	1st Gen, Target Tracking And Identification	40.0	4.0	0.0
4603	Generic TV Camera	2nd Gen, Weapon Director	80.0	8.0	0.0
4604	Generic TV Camera	3rd Gen, Weapon Director	100.0	20.0	0.0
5687	Generic TV Camera	2nd Gen, Surveillance, 18x Magnification	30.0	18.0	2.0

Are these 'real' idk, generally speaking they don't completely shock me given tech in the last ~20 years (I'll leave that mainly to others as to how 'real' they are), but keep in mind maxRange doesn't always mean actual range for any target, since elevation (Geometric Visibility) differences, line of sight, weather state, etc all play into "range" reduction. Not to mention the detection specs on the target object and the magnification level available if any playing into things, as well as game-balance factors that might play into why the ranges may be higher than you might otherwise expect. As for being the primary search system on a unit, pretty sure they can be in the 'game', be it realistic or not, but better answered by the devs. Unless being used to direct a particular weapon on a unit (sometimes they are sometimes they are not) though feel free to remove them if you think they are op on any given unit.

< Message edited by KnightHawk75 -- 12/25/2020 1:54:46 AM >

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/25/2020 2:10:32 AM

thewood1

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Two things also...

The EO unit on the F-14B back in the 80's had a range of 60 miles for IDing a unit.

The other thing is its also dependent on height of the camera and therefore horizon. The range ring is generally going to be determined by the LOS tool on surface to surface detection.

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/25/2020 6:26:55 AM

Dimitris

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Hi and welcome,

quote:

ORIGINAL: pacman14k
I'm trying to understand SAM systems bit better including the radars and other sensors. I see this "generic TV camera" listed under quite a few systems, sometimes with some incredible ranges. Example, the SA-17 has 2x "Generic TV Camera" - a "visual, target tracking and identification TV camera" with a range of 80 nm! This is 15 nm more than the Chair Back A which is also associated with the SA-17. I'm sure I've seen a TV camera with a range of 100 nm also.

Are these ranges for real?

Yes. The Mk1 Eyeball can see airliners out to dozens of NM in favorable conditions (often you do not see the platform itself but its contrails). A TV camera with even some primitive zoom can extend this even further.

quote:

The other weird thing is, presumably they are cued by some other sensor - surely they can't be the primary search system?

Correct. Usually they are used to classify/ID a contact handed off from another sensor or another unit. They can also be very useful if the main (radar) sensor is jammed, knocked out etc. They can perform volume search on their own but at a much reduced range, usually.

quote:

In which case their ranges would limited to the range of the cueing sensor (see range of the Chair Back).

Not necessarily. Let's say you get an offboard contact info for a target 75nm away - the camera can try to check in that direction regardless of what the radar is doing.

The other example is that you pick up the contact initially through the radar, point the camera at it and shut down the radar. You can then keep tracking the target with the camera and he'll be none the wiser.

quote:

When I place an SA-17 on the map and view its range rings, it only goes out to a max range of 65 nm (ie the Chair Back). Why aren't the ranges of these "generic TV camera" systems displayed?

That's because the sensor range rings are only for active-capable and activated sensors. Other than passive sonar (IIRC), passive sensors such as cameras do not get a range ring.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 12/25/2020 6:27:20 AM >

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/25/2020 7:26:15 AM

pacman14k

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Thanks for your responses everyone. Makes perfect sense to me now. So they are basically just EO cameras with massive zooms that can track a target way out if the conditions are right and are especially useful in EW contested environments.

I'm guessing there are IR versions of these things? I've heard of IRST on aircraft. Not hard to perceive this being applied to a SAM system also.

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/25/2020 8:22:03 PM

KnightHawk75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pacman14k

Thanks for your responses everyone. Makes perfect sense to me now. So they are basically just EO cameras with massive zooms that can track a target way out if the conditions are right and are especially useful in EW contested environments.

I'm guessing there are IR versions of these things? I've heard of IRST on aircraft. Not hard to perceive this being applied to a SAM system also.

Yup.
As for IR, yes. Beyond the specifically named systems there are also generic versions for generations of IR, FLIR, IRST, LLTV, each with different generations and roles. Easiest way to sort find them in game is bring up the sensors add dialog and filter by name and type in something like 'Generic xxx'.

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/26/2020 8:55:12 PM

c3k

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Periscopes (modern subs) in-game seem to just be "Mark I eyeballs". I would think they would be at least a magnified view, let alone the extra tech of thermals, etc.

Contrails for spotting: military aircraft are sensitive to getting out of altitudes at which they create contrails. Not sure if using "airliners can be spotted at dozens of miles due to contrails" should be used in-game.

FWIW.

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/26/2020 9:17:52 PM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c3k
Periscopes (modern subs) in-game seem to just be "Mark I eyeballs". I would think they would be at least a magnified view, let alone the extra tech of thermals, etc.

Maybe you are looking at the CWDB, or a really old version of the DB3K? I distinctly remember that sub EO/IR sensors have been overhauled in the DB3K for some time now.

quote:

Contrails for spotting: military aircraft are sensitive to getting out of altitudes at which they create contrails. Not sure if using "airliners can be spotted at dozens of miles due to contrails" should be used in-game.

IMHO it should, because this is a "can spot it in perfect day under ideal conditions" value. In-sim, contrails may or may not be generated according to the plane altitude (and their size will vary according to aircraft size and number of engines). So yes, the very same aircraft that is just a microscopic dot at higher & lower altitudes may stand out at a far longer range during its pass through the contrail belt. Maybe it gets lucky because nobody is looking that way during that time, but maybe not.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 12/26/2020 9:19:13 PM >

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/26/2020 10:33:20 PM

thewood1

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I just checked in the DB3K database. Even older 1980s subs have LLTV and special optical cameras in their periscopes. When you get into the 21st century, they have 3-6 different optical: LLTV, TV, IR, etc.

Not sure what the issue is.

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/27/2020 12:33:16 PM

slimatwar

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Do the game mechanics simulate the limits for visual sensors during the night?

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/27/2020 2:22:02 PM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slimatwar
Do the game mechanics simulate the limits for visual sensors during the night?

If by "the limits for visual sensors during the night" you mean "effective detection range drops sharply, and depends on the presence of ambient light from the moon & stars, as well as the presence and thickness of clouds " then yes.

If you mean something else, then please explain in detail what you mean.

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 12/27/2020 2:28:11 PM >

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/27/2020 5:06:59 PM

slimatwar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

quote:

ORIGINAL: slimatwar
Do the game mechanics simulate the limits for visual sensors during the night?

If by "the limits for visual sensors during the night" you mean "effective detection range drops sharply, and depends on the presence of ambient light from the moon & stars, as well as the presence and thickness of clouds " then yes.

That's what I mean.Thanks.

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/28/2020 11:43:31 AM

c3k

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I just checked in the DB3K database. Even older 1980s subs have LLTV and special optical cameras in their periscopes. When you get into the 21st century, they have 3-6 different optical: LLTV, TV, IR, etc.

Not sure what the issue is.

My mistake.

Selecting a unit's "Sensors" button brings up a window with listings for sensors. Submarines do NOT have any magnification or LLTV or other enhancements listed on this window, just "Mk1 Eyeball".

However, selecting the unit's Database Viewer brings up the enhanced Sensors/EW listing. There, one can find such things as 1x Generic Submarine Periscope, LLTV.

Since I did not see any IR or EO listings in the "Sensors" window, (and some submarines could not see burning targets, confirmed in the editor), I assumed a lack of IR/LLTV.

TL;DR: a UI window does not show all the sensors.

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/28/2020 11:48:09 AM

c3k

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

IMHO it should, because this is a "can spot it in perfect day under ideal conditions" value. In-sim, contrails may or may not be generated according to the plane altitude (and their size will vary according to aircraft size and number of engines). So yes, the very same aircraft that is just a microscopic dot at higher & lower altitudes may stand out at a far longer range during its pass through the contrail belt. Maybe it gets lucky because nobody is looking that way during that time, but maybe not.

It's great to use this. Seriously.

But.

Military missions are planned to avoid contrails. And, they actively check for the formation of contrails and change profile (altitude) to eliminate them.

How is this ability (checking for contrail formation) relayed to the player?

I.e., how does the player know if his B2 or Bear is making a contrail? How does the player (a non-aviator) know what to do to eliminate it?

For ships, we have a checkbox, "avoid cavitation". For aircraft, why not add an "avoid contrails" for aircraft? Or have a an altitude box, similar to the submarine "layer" box, showing the contrail altitudes the game uses?

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/28/2020 12:14:31 PM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c3k

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I just checked in the DB3K database. Even older 1980s subs have LLTV and special optical cameras in their periscopes. When you get into the 21st century, they have 3-6 different optical: LLTV, TV, IR, etc.

Not sure what the issue is.

My mistake.

Selecting a unit's "Sensors" button brings up a window with listings for sensors. Submarines do NOT have any magnification or LLTV or other enhancements listed on this window, just "Mk1 Eyeball".

However, selecting the unit's Database Viewer brings up the enhanced Sensors/EW listing. There, one can find such things as 1x Generic Submarine Periscope, LLTV.

Since I did not see any IR or EO listings in the "Sensors" window, (and some submarines could not see burning targets, confirmed in the editor), I assumed a lack of IR/LLTV.

TL;DR: a UI window does not show all the sensors.

Thanks! Added that on our stack so that it doesn't get forgotten.

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 12/28/2020 12:21:41 PM

Dimitris

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c3k

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

IMHO it should, because this is a "can spot it in perfect day under ideal conditions" value. In-sim, contrails may or may not be generated according to the plane altitude (and their size will vary according to aircraft size and number of engines). So yes, the very same aircraft that is just a microscopic dot at higher & lower altitudes may stand out at a far longer range during its pass through the contrail belt. Maybe it gets lucky because nobody is looking that way during that time, but maybe not.

It's great to use this. Seriously.

But.

Military missions are planned to avoid contrails. And, they actively check for the formation of contrails and change profile (altitude) to eliminate them.

How is this ability (checking for contrail formation) relayed to the player?

I.e., how does the player know if his B2 or Bear is making a contrail? How does the player (a non-aviator) know what to do to eliminate it?

For ships, we have a checkbox, "avoid cavitation". For aircraft, why not add an "avoid contrails" for aircraft? Or have a an altitude box, similar to the submarine "layer" box, showing the contrail altitudes the game uses?

Interesting suggestion, thanks. Added to our stack so that we can take a look at this when possible.

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 1/5/2021 6:37:29 AM

Geoffropi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c3k

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I just checked in the DB3K database. Even older 1980s subs have LLTV and special optical cameras in their periscopes. When you get into the 21st century, they have 3-6 different optical: LLTV, TV, IR, etc.

Not sure what the issue is.

My mistake.

Selecting a unit's "Sensors" button brings up a window with listings for sensors. Submarines do NOT have any magnification or LLTV or other enhancements listed on this window, just "Mk1 Eyeball".

However, selecting the unit's Database Viewer brings up the enhanced Sensors/EW listing. There, one can find such things as 1x Generic Submarine Periscope, LLTV.

Since I did not see any IR or EO listings in the "Sensors" window, (and some submarines could not see burning targets, confirmed in the editor), I assumed a lack of IR/LLTV.

TL;DR: a UI window does not show all the sensors.

I have just checked it and it works as intended (at least in the latest internal version). Actually, you have a different sub selected in the database, and your database viewer is set to DB487 which is weird. Not all subs entries have periscope "sensor" entries, hence the seemingly missing ones.

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 1/5/2021 1:34:20 PM

c3k

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quote:

I have just checked it and it works as intended (at least in the latest internal version). Actually, you have a different sub selected in the database, and your database viewer is set to DB487 which is weird. Not all subs entries have periscope "sensor" entries, hence the seemingly missing ones.

Well...I have no idea what's going on then. Are you sure you aren't seeing the "SSN Dallas" (class lead ship) in the Database window I posted and thinking that I've crossed up the SSN Boston (the specific submarine of the Dallas class), I'm using?

I'll have Steam verify my install and see if I can duplicate this.

And, why is DB487 weird? (Not snarky, legitimate question.)

(It'll be several days. Currently traveling.)

Thanks,

Ken

< Message edited by c3k -- 1/5/2021 1:36:54 PM >

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 1/5/2021 4:39:31 PM

RockPaperScissors

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Hi all,

On contrails; according to the CMANO manual addendum contrails form at altitudes larger than 8000m and temperatures of -40�C. To my understanding this condition was/is not modelled other than contrails being present for all altitudes higher than ~28000 feet (am I correct here?).

In any case; using a simplified standard atmospheric model, a simple formula can be derived at which height the temperature will be -40�C (and contrails can form):

Height(minimum for contrail)=504.87*Temperature(@sealevel in �C) + 20192 feet

Perhaps a nice input for that checkbox ;)

Best regards, RPS

< Message edited by RockPaperScissors -- 1/5/2021 4:41:13 PM >

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 1/5/2021 5:00:41 PM

thewood1

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"Currently traveling"

I hope its essential travel...just kidding. Don't see many people doing that nowadays.

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 1/6/2021 2:20:58 PM

HaughtKarl

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Stepbrother, your EO sensors have enormous range!

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 1/6/2021 3:43:41 PM

SeaQueen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

Interesting suggestion, thanks. Added to our stack so that we can take a look at this when possible.

Bonus points if you can draw the contrails on the screen with an associated radio call. :-)

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 1/6/2021 4:02:06 PM

Dimitris

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There exists a contrails-specific radio call?

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 1/8/2021 1:50:42 AM

SeaQueen

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quote:

There exists a contrails-specific radio call?

See AFTTP(I) 3-2.5

"MARKING Informative call indicating friendly aircraft is leaving contrails. (NOTE: NATO term in CONNING)"
"CONS/CONNING Descriptive term for nonfriendly aircraft leaving contrails."

You refer to friendly aircraft marking, and bad guys as "CONNING" or "CONS."

My brevity is really terrible, so I'm sure someone more knowledgable than me might correct my examples, but here goes:

Examples:

"TALLY CONS"
"TALLY HOSTILE CONNING moving left to right."

"EAGLE 3-1, VIPER 3-2. You're MARKING."

< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 1/8/2021 1:55:54 AM >

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 1/8/2021 12:16:26 PM

c3k

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EO range:

Are atmospheric obscurants modeled, or is it a pure geometry calculation? (E.g., height of observer, radius of curvature/physical horizon, height of target.)

Obviously cloud layers are important, but far more prevalent would be humidity.

My daily drive has a view of a peak 29 miles away. Some days, it is clearly visible, other days it is slightly obscured (a bit of a grey veil), and on still others it is totally invisible. The visibility is due solely to relative humidity.

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RE: "Generic TV Camera" with enormous ranges? - 1/8/2021 3:47:19 PM

KnightHawk75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c3k

EO range:

Are atmospheric obscurants modeled, or is it a pure geometry calculation? (E.g., height of observer, radius of curvature/physical horizon, height of target.)

Obviously cloud layers are important, but far more prevalent would be humidity.

My daily drive has a view of a peak 29 miles away. Some days, it is clearly visible, other days it is slightly obscured (a bit of a grey veil), and on still others it is totally invisible. The visibility is due solely to relative humidity.

I know there are sensor reductions based on weather state (cloud and rain states), the exact figures matching what rain and or cloud state get interesting, I don't know offhand for CMO but during the CMANO days I posted what some of the reduction percentages were buried in this thread. Gives you some idea even if it's not exact.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4607236

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