Invading Sweden

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Invading Sweden - 1/5/2021 6:16:06 AM

Pocus

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Say I fancy invading, as Germany, Sweden. They provide 30 MPP a turn. They have 27 towns (1.25 MPP each) plus one capital (10 MPP) and 30 MPP of mining facilities. Total, 80 MPP.

Is it what I'll get back once conquered?

< Message edited by Pocus -- 1/5/2021 6:30:14 AM >

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/5/2021 3:45:30 PM

BillRunacre

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Not really, because they are already sending a high proportion of their income to Germany via a convoy, and that will continue even if you conquer them, so there is no real benefit (and potentially only loss) to invading Sweden.

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/5/2021 10:06:46 PM

Chernobyl

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Well if Sweden is providing a flat 30, wouldn't conquering them give more MPP than that? Germany and most majors get 80% occupational efficiency so I assume you get 80% of their raw MPP and then that gets multiplied by your Industrial Modifier.

I also assume that if you get them on your side diplomatically, you get 100% of their income

One gamey benefit to attacking Sweden might be to sink their battleships. They are weak at str 5 and some well placed surprise naval landings could destroy them or force them out of port where the German navy could sink them. That would be a significant NM hit to their overlord (UK)

< Message edited by Chernobyl -- 1/5/2021 11:18:01 PM >

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/6/2021 12:27:19 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

One gamey benefit to attacking Sweden might be to sink their battleships. They are weak at str 5 and some well placed surprise naval landings could destroy them or force them out of port where the German navy could sink them. That would be a significant NM hit to their overlord (UK)

Jeez.....now that's diabolical!

......bet you've done it before :)

(in reply to Chernobyl)

Post #: 4

RE: Invading Sweden - 1/6/2021 1:03:49 AM

Chernobyl

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You can also get some NM from the Denmark BB even easier. You can run a cavalry or two over and damage it immediately. You can sink that battleship and their sub pretty easily.

I haven't done any of this cheese to a human, only against the ai when I declared war on every country for fun. It probably isn't optimal since you take a diplomatic hit with Sweden, Norway, USA and Netherlands.

< Message edited by Chernobyl -- 1/6/2021 1:17:52 AM >

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/6/2021 1:51:53 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

You can also get some NM from the Denmark BB even easier. You can run a cavalry or two over and damage it immediately. You can sink that battleship and their sub pretty easily.

I haven't done any of this cheese to a human, only against the ai when I declared war on every country for fun. It probably isn't optimal since you take a diplomatic hit with Sweden, Norway, USA and Netherlands.

Actually, I've considered Denmark when playing CP. See, Greenland and Iceland belong to Denmark, and both of those places have a port each...for U-boats.

I don't think there's an 'Operation Fork' baked into SC-ww1 like there is in WiE and WaW where the UK and USA occupy them if Denmark falls. It would be a long long amphibious trip across 'shark' infested waters to take em back.

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 1/6/2021 1:52:57 AM >

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/6/2021 6:27:59 AM

Tendraline

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I feel like we're missing the elephant in the room: Sweden is connected to both the Atlantic Ocean at Gothenberg and the Russian rail network at Haparanda and hex 192, 19. The nearest Russian port to the West, Petsamo, is around 3 turns away from the UK and 4 from France, but Gothenberg can be reached within one. Another turn from one of these locations and you can suddenly be in Tabriz preparing to surround Iraq or shouldering some of the burden in Poland. In essence, the Allies would be able to distribute their forces more efficiently, propping up Russia when you least expect.

An Allied Sweden also opens up Norway to assault, further securing Allied reinforcement lines to Russia. Three corps and an HQ are enough, as the first two can cut off the whole Norwegian rail network off and, with it, the hope for reinforcements. The defending side is stuck with just a detachment and an HQ of its own, which is just sad.

Not to mention, invading Sweden is logistically difficult for the Central Powers. Scania is fine, especially if Denmark is taken first, but then it's quite a few hexes to any city north of there. And the CP would have at most strength 5 resources while Sweden's are strength 8. And while you are conquering the British are getting 60 MPPs or so from Sweden.

In other words, invading Sweden as the CP is a surprisingly bad idea. Better invade Switzerland or Bulgaria as the Entente, at least you will accomplish something without helping your enemy. Also, I could confirm that there is no Operation Fork in this game, so go invade Denmark as the CP as well.

< Message edited by Tendraline -- 1/6/2021 6:28:30 AM >

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/6/2021 6:48:44 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tendraline

I feel like we're missing the elephant in the room: Sweden is connected to both the Atlantic Ocean at Gothenberg and the Russian rail network at Haparanda and hex 192, 19. The nearest Russian port to the West, Petsamo, is around 3 turns away from the UK and 4 from France, but Gothenberg can be reached within one. Another turn from one of these locations and you can suddenly be in Tabriz preparing to surround Iraq or shouldering some of the burden in Poland. In essence, the Allies would be able to distribute their forces more efficiently, propping up Russia when you least expect.

An Allied Sweden also opens up Norway to assault, further securing Allied reinforcement lines to Russia. Three corps and an HQ are enough, as the first two can cut off the whole Norwegian rail network off and, with it, the hope for reinforcements. The defending side is stuck with just a detachment and an HQ of its own, which is just sad.

Not to mention, invading Sweden is logistically difficult for the Central Powers. Scania is fine, especially if Denmark is taken first, but then it's quite a few hexes to any city north of there. And the CP would have at most strength 5 resources while Sweden's are strength 8. And while you are conquering the British are getting 60 MPPs or so from Sweden.

In other words, invading Sweden as the CP is a surprisingly bad idea. Better invade Switzerland or Bulgaria as the Entente, at least you will accomplish something without helping your enemy. Also, I could confirm that there is no Operation Fork in this game, so go invade Denmark as the CP as well.

Interesting!

Yeah, this is true in WiE , if the Axis takes Leningrad...then all of Axis held Scandinavia (or at least towns on the RR net), are linked with the rest of Axis held Europe.

Your right...Sweden would be disastrous for the Central Powers if they went Entente and Sweden couldn't be defeated quickly. Of course, the Entente might be surprised and not have anything available to scrap together to help them in time. So...who's knows?

As for Denmark, I was only half serious, or half not.

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/6/2021 9:16:21 AM

BillRunacre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Well if Sweden is providing a flat 30, wouldn't conquering them give more MPP than that? Germany and most majors get 80% occupational efficiency so I assume you get 80% of their raw MPP and then that gets multiplied by your Industrial Modifier.

I also assume that if you get them on your side diplomatically, you get 100% of their income

Hi Chernobyl

Germany receives income from Sweden via a convoy script, as their exports need to be shipped to Germany, and this provides a maximum of 40% of Sweden's potential income whether Sweden is neutral and pro-CP, has entered the war on the CP's side, or been conquered.

Therefore there is no economic incentive to invade Sweden, because doing so will not increase Germany's income.

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/7/2021 1:58:04 PM

marionmco

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Hello,

I guess it's the same reasoning for Denmark and Norway, that we play CP or Entente ?

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/12/2022 1:28:13 PM

mdsmall

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Hi Bill,

I went back to re-read this old thread to help with some ideas for a mod. I still don't understand why German income from Sweden would not increase to around 64 MPPs if they invade it and conquer it (ie. 80 MPPs as the base value of all the Swedish resources X a 80% German industrial modifier = 64 MPPs).

What limits the economic benefit to Germany to the 30 MPPs they already receive from the start of the game via the convoy from Sweden? It looks like the convoy is only shipping resources to Germany from the two Swedish mine hexes (worth 30 MPPs in total). But what is excluding Germany from receiving resources via the convoy from the many Swedish towns as well?

The reason I am interested in this question is that I am playing around with adding other convoys from other minor countries in a possible mod. Do all the economic resources of a minor get automatically shipped to the receiving major when a convoy route is established? Or is there some way to limit the convoy resources to say just the resources designated resources hexes, such as mines or oil wells?

Michael

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/12/2022 1:48:41 PM

BillRunacre

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Hi Michael

Each convoy script has a % that can be set to dictate the proportion of that country's income that can be sent via a convoy.

To have it go higher if a country has been conquered requires a dummy Decision event to then trigger an alternative convoy script, one that will be placed higher in the Convoy script file than the original too.

It can be done, but it's more work and I can see your point, it just isn't something that's currently on my priority list to change.

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/12/2022 5:50:35 PM

Tanaka

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

One gamey benefit to attacking Sweden might be to sink their battleships. They are weak at str 5 and some well placed surprise naval landings could destroy them or force them out of port where the German navy could sink them. That would be a significant NM hit to their overlord (UK)

Jeez.....now that's diabolical!

......bet you've done it before :)

Interesting...why does this affect UK NM and not Sweden NM?

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/12/2022 7:37:28 PM

mdsmall

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From: Vancouver, BC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Hi Michael

Each convoy script has a % that can be set to dictate the proportion of that country's income that can be sent via a convoy.

To have it go higher if a country has been conquered requires a dummy Decision event to then trigger an alternative convoy script, one that will be placed higher in the Convoy script file than the original too.

It can be done, but it's more work and I can see your point, it just isn't something that's currently on my priority list to change.

Bill - thanks for pointing out the maximum % factor in the convoy scripts. I looked up in the game editor and I see that the convoy from Sweden has a 40% maximum, so that explains why the convoy to Germany is worth just over 30 MPPs.

But I think I am still missing something more basic about the economic underpinnings of the game. If Sweden (in this case) joins the Central Powers would not 100% of its resources generate MPPs for its parent (in this case Germany)? Why would the convoy need to continue at all? For example, when Bulgaria joins the CP or Romania joins the Entente, my understanding is that all of their resources are immediately accrued by their majors. Does there have to be a physical land connection over friendly controlled hexes to the capital of a major power for these resources to be sent to their parent majors; and if not, then the resources have to travel via a convoy? Grateful for your clarification of the rules at work here.

Michael

(in reply to BillRunacre)

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/13/2022 8:37:29 AM

BillRunacre

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The thing is that if a convoy script exists for a country to sends its MPPs that way to another, then that is the only way it will provide income to the other.

In terms of Sweden, as it isn't joined by land to Germany a convoy is the only way its economy could really contribute to the German war effort.

So if you want the income to rise to 100% should Sweden join the Central Powers, or be conquered by them, then it will require a dummy DECISION to trigger a convoy script in these circumstances, one that sends (say) 100% of income.

< Message edited by BillRunacre -- 1/13/2022 8:46:27 AM >

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RE: Invading Sweden - 1/13/2022 8:45:15 AM

BillRunacre

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Interesting...why does this affect UK NM and not Sweden NM?

Sweden doesn't have its own NM as it's a Minor. So the UK loses some prestige due to its subordinate ally suffering casualties.

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