Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: avenger300

Hello all,

I am new to playing CMO and I am really enjoying it so far. One of the elements I'm interested in is ELINT and the gathering of battlefield intelligence.

I was excited to see that the database (DB3000 v487) contains two powerful ELINT facilities from the cold war: the HF/DF AN/FLR-9 CDAA and the HF/DF AN/FRD-10 Classic Bullseye CDAA. Basically, these are gigantic antennas that can provide bearing information (direction finding) on adversarial signals from almost anywhere in the world (the database shows the FLR-9 having a ELINT range of 4000 nm, which sounds about right). An antenna such as this located in, say, Alaska, should be able to get a rough bearing on most long-range air-defense radars in the USSR/Russia. Certainly it shouldn't have trouble picking up A and B band OTH signals. At least, that is my (admittedly amateurish) understanding.

When I test this capability in the simulation, however, the FLR-9 and FRD-10 seem almost blind to even the strongest and longest-wave radars. As an example, I plopped a Russian CAT HOUSE radar about 100 nm from both HF/DF antennas and...got nothing. This seems strange to me, as the CAT HOUSE should be pouring energy into the atmosphere in a very unmistakable way.

The HF/DF receivers have better luck detecting emissions from adversarial aircraft out to a few hundred nm, but nowhere near the thousands of miles as advertised by the database.

So, I have some questions:

1) is this behavior from HF/DF antennas expected?

2) am I wrong in my assumptions about these antennas?

3) is there some way to "debug" these facilities within the simulation to see if they are working properly?

I assume everyone on this board is much more knowledgeable and experienced about these subjects than myself. Any advice you may have is welcome. Thank you!

quote:

My guess for the CAT HOUSE not being picked up is that the CAT HOUSE transmitted in the 300 MHz-3 GHZ (HF)range, while the FLR-9 and FRD-10 received in the 1.5-30 or 2-32 MHz (UHF) range. Incidentally, that is one of the great thinkgs about CMO-it does model the effect of equipment frequencies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: avenger300

quote:

My guess for the CAT HOUSE not being picked up is that the CAT HOUSE transmitted in the 300 MHz-3 GHZ (HF)range, while the FLR-9 and FRD-10 received in the 1.5-30 or 2-32 MHz (UHF) range. Incidentally, that is one of the great thinkgs about CMO-it does model the effect of equipment frequencies.

This is a great idea and I had not considered it! I tried the same experiment but now with a lower-frequency STEEL YARD radar -- but it had the same effect. The HF/DF was blind to the radar.

I'm starting to wonder if ground-based ELINT is not capable of picking up ground-based signals for some reason? Could the simulation be coded that way?

In any event, thank you for your reply!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Geoffropi

Hi,

Thanks for the report.

Actually, there were 2 issues instead of one, this is the reason why you could not detect it even at the right frequency, the DB entry is lacking OTH capabilities, so any terrain or the horizon would block the signal.
But there is also an issue with frequency comparison that has been fixed for the next versions.
So in the current version you have, it is best to avoid using HF/DF AN/FLR-9.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CV60

quote:

ORIGINAL: avenger300

Hello all,

I am new to playing CMO and I am really enjoying it so far. One of the elements I'm interested in is ELINT and the gathering of battlefield intelligence.

I was excited to see that the database (DB3000 v487) contains two powerful ELINT facilities from the cold war: the HF/DF AN/FLR-9 CDAA and the HF/DF AN/FRD-10 Classic Bullseye CDAA. Basically, these are gigantic antennas that can provide bearing information (direction finding) on adversarial signals from almost anywhere in the world (the database shows the FLR-9 having a ELINT range of 4000 nm, which sounds about right). An antenna such as this located in, say, Alaska, should be able to get a rough bearing on most long-range air-defense radars in the USSR/Russia. Certainly it shouldn't have trouble picking up A and B band OTH signals. At least, that is my (admittedly amateurish) understanding.

When I test this capability in the simulation, however, the FLR-9 and FRD-10 seem almost blind to even the strongest and longest-wave radars. As an example, I plopped a Russian CAT HOUSE radar about 100 nm from both HF/DF antennas and...got nothing. This seems strange to me, as the CAT HOUSE should be pouring energy into the atmosphere in a very unmistakable way.

The HF/DF receivers have better luck detecting emissions from adversarial aircraft out to a few hundred nm, but nowhere near the thousands of miles as advertised by the database.

So, I have some questions:

1) is this behavior from HF/DF antennas expected?

2) am I wrong in my assumptions about these antennas?

3) is there some way to "debug" these facilities within the simulation to see if they are working properly?

I assume everyone on this board is much more knowledgeable and experienced about these subjects than myself. Any advice you may have is welcome. Thank you!

My guess for the CAT HOUSE not being picked up is that the CAT HOUSE transmitted in the 300 MHz-3 GHZ (HF)range (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunay_radar), while the FLR-9 and FRD-10 received in the 1.5-30 or 2-32 MHz (UHF) range. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/FRD-10 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/FLR-9. Incidentally, that is one of the great thinkgs about CMO-it does model the effect of equipment frequencies.

1001	A Band (30-250 MHz) [Old P Band (HF)] 100-300 cm
1002	B Band (250-500 MHz) [Old P Band (VHF)] 60-100 cm
1003	C Band (500-1000 MHz) [Old L Band (UHF)] 60-30cm
1004	D Band (1-2 GHz) [Old L Band] 15-30 cm
1005	E Band (2-3 GHz) [Old S Band] 10-15 cm
1006	F Band (3-4 GHz) [Old S Band] 7.5-10 cm
1007	G Band (4-6 GHz) [Old C Band] 5-7.5 cm
1008	H Band (6-8 GHz) [Old C Band] 3.75-5 cm
1009	I Band (8-10 GHz) [Old X Band] 3-3.75 cm
1010	J Band (10-20 GHz) [Old X Band] 1.5-3 cm
1011	K Band (20-40 GHz) [Old Ku Band] 0.75-1.5 cm
1012	L Band (40-60 GHz) [Old Ka Band] 5-7.5 mm
1013	M Band (60-100 GHz) [Old V/W Band] 3-5 mm
2001	Visual Light
2002	Near IR (0.75-8 µm)
2003	Far IR (8-1000 µm)
2004	Laser

3001	ELF Radio (3-30 Hz)
3002	SLF Radio (30-300 Hz)
3003	ULF Radio (300-3000 Hz)
3004	VLF Radio (3-30 KHz)
3005	LF Radio (30-300 KHz)
3006	MF Radio (300-3000 KHz)
3007	HF Radio (3-30 MHz)
3008	VHF Radio (30-300 MHz)
3009	UHF Radio (300-3000 MHz)
3010	SHF Radio (3-30 GHz)
3011	EHF Radio (30-300 GHz)
4001	LF Sonar (1-5 KHz, 3 KHz Center Frequency)
4002	MF Sonar (5-10 KHz, 7.5 KHz Center Frequency)
4003	HF Sonar (10-500 KHz, 20 KHz Center Frequency)
4004	VLF Sonar (0-1000 Hz, 200 Hz Center Frequency)