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Itlaian Frogmen - 1/10/2021 10:35:10 AM   
peskpesk


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From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Itlaian Frogmen

I wish Steve would still complete the optional frogmen rule...

Commando Frogmen - Mission Gibraltar

Italian Naval Commandos: WW2 Frogmen Raid 1941

Naval Legends: Maiale. Secret weapon of Regia Marina — first Human Torpedo!

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 1/10/2021 10:36:03 AM >

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/10/2021 12:38:55 PM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		Personally, I've never build frogmen with the Axis or the Allies. I don't like "one shot" units at all. The costs are simply to high. And the maximum I ever got with a frogmen attack by the Italians was a "D" result. I usually ended up with getting shot out of the water before the frogmen could do anything...



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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/10/2021 12:47:38 PM   
gmtello

 

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Status: offline 		Think Steve in his month reports has stated that they are not going to work in frogmen

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/10/2021 12:49:11 PM   
gmtello

 

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Status: offline 		It is a small option to work for a small implication in the game

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/10/2021 4:47:57 PM   
Joseignacio


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Status: offline 		I love to press on CW or IT with my tiny frogmen and minisub units.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/10/2021 5:27:04 PM   
peskpesk


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From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Harry Roland's argument for inclusion of the frogmen is strong; ex he points out that in attacks on British ships in port they accomplished more damage to the British navy than the rest of the Italian navy combined. They had a substantial impact on the naval war in the Med.
As said before, in my opinion Frogmen are an important asset in both the UK and Italian arsenal. They caused substantial damage and won their place in their respective force pool. Remeber that the Japanese used frogmen too,ex at Pearl Harbor and at Sydney.
But they also add a nice flair to the game.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/11/2021 5:53:08 AM   
paulderynck


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Status: offline 		One shot use and never allowed to be rebuilt would be more historic. After the first such attack the victim was pretty much clued in.

The decision not to code them is quite supportable, IMO.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/11/2021 8:31:19 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		They did make multiple attempts at Gibraltar (rolled poorly), but their big success was at Alexandria. Good thing Winston wanted to use the Bottomed Ships option. And all their success was without even using the Surprise Impulse.

Did the Kriegsmarine pick up a little more success than the non-Frogman Regua Marina as well? 2 CVs sunk at the top of the German list, plenty of “D” results as well.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/11/2021 11:38:07 PM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

They did make multiple attempts at Gibraltar (rolled poorly), but their big success was at Alexandria. Good thing Winston wanted to use the Bottomed Ships option. And all their success was without even using the Surprise Impulse.

Did the Kriegsmarine pick up a little more success than the non-Frogman Regua Marina as well? 2 CVs sunk at the top of the German list, plenty of “D” results as well.

And one spectacular X ... HMS Hood.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/12/2021 1:07:04 AM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		I meant purely in the Mediterranean, where the Germans also sank a British BB. And sank more Italian BB than the Allies, too.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/12/2021 2:22:25 AM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I meant purely in the Mediterranean, where the Germans also sank a British BB. And sank more Italian BB than the Allies, too.
Got you.


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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/13/2021 12:39:04 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk

Itlaian Frogmen

I wish Steve would still complete the optional frogmen rule...

Commando Frogmen - Mission Gibraltar

Italian Naval Commandos: WW2 Frogmen Raid 1941

Naval Legends: Maiale. Secret weapon of Regia Marina — first Human Torpedo!

Thank you for sharing.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/13/2021 12:48:53 PM   
Orm


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Status: offline 		I also wish that the Frogmen optional would be included. I find it am important option to keep the CW player 'honest' in the Med. There is basically no risk at all for CW to sit with their fleet in Gibraltar, or Port Said, in a game that follows the general historical line of action. The frogmen change this. With the Frogmen the CW player takes a risk when he deploys no picket force in the Med if the Italian player has Frogmen available.

And I do not buy the argument that the frogmen are useless since I've sunk a couple of CW CVs with them. The CW player might have been careless when he lost them. But that is sort of my point...

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/13/2021 5:24:05 PM   
paulderynck


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Status: offline 		Yes of course the CW deserted all the major ports in the Med as they were terrified of the frogmen.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/14/2021 4:57:28 PM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		I know its a moot point - because the optional isn't going to be coded anyway - but is this one of those Axis fanboi rules or does it cater for the British midget subs too?

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/14/2021 5:21:39 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		The British “Minisubs” (WiF term; the RN called them the X-craft, I believe?) are in Ships in Flames as are Japan’s.

The Royal Navy didn’t abandon their Med bases, no, but they also didn’t see the attack potential and that cost them 2 Battleships for over 2 years each, iirc. At Gibraltar the operations of Flotilla X only cost them some auxiliaries. The Italians also managed to nearly sink a CA with just speedboats - probably why the CE rules allow ‘frogman’ counters to attack at sea now, and also include America PT-Boats in this type of counter.

And ultimately BBs weren’t all that significant in the Med anyway and one could argue that neither were CVs outside of occasionally ferrying fighters to Malta. The RN lost 2 CVs sunk and one more nearly sunk in the Med and still won the war in the Med handily. Land-based air ruled the theater in a generic sense.

But all of that could have been different, and that’s why we play World in Flames.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/14/2021 7:38:18 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The British “Minisubs” (WiF term; the RN called them the X-craft, I believe?) are in Ships in Flames as are Japan’s.

The Royal Navy didn’t abandon their Med bases, no, but they also didn’t see the attack potential and that cost them 2 Battleships for over 2 years each, iirc. At Gibraltar the operations of Flotilla X only cost them some auxiliaries. The Italians also managed to nearly sink a CA with just speedboats - probably why the CE rules allow ‘frogman’ counters to attack at sea now, and also include America PT-Boats in this type of counter.

And ultimately BBs weren’t all that significant in the Med anyway and one could argue that neither were CVs outside of occasionally ferrying fighters to Malta. The RN lost 2 CVs sunk and one more nearly sunk in the Med and still won the war in the Med handily. Land-based air ruled the theater in a generic sense.

But all of that could have been different, and that’s why we play World in Flames.
warspite1

Well the RN did largely abandon Malta - but that was not because of the Human Torpedoes - and when the German air force wasn't in Sicily they tended to come back .

I don't know where two years came from. Valiant was out of action for about 7-8 months and QE was back after a year and a half.

I think you do something of a dis-service to the BB - and certainly the carriers. "Occasionally" ferrying aircraft doesn't begin to cut it. Those aircraft helped save Malta and there were more than the occasional ferry operations. Indeed so desperate was Malta's need for fighters in 1942 that the British asked the USN for USS Wasp to assist after the loss of Ark Royal. The presence of the carriers - yes, even Eagle - stopped the Italians from doing what they should have done and gone after the generally slower, older, out-ranged British battleships.

A lot has been made of the attack on QE and Valiant - but of course it was the carrier Illustrious that allowed the FAA to do the same to three Italian battleships - one of which never took to sea again.

The frogmen that took part in the attack on Alexandria were brave and did a good job. Sadly for the Italians it was a case of too little too late. They squandered their advantage in the Med - even when the Germans arrived with their aircraft. So by the time the two BB's were removed from the RN OOB, the Italians had wasted 18 months and a whole lot of fuel.....

As the British (and Japanese) get these units too, I think they probably provide a nice bit of chrome to the game - but in terms of MWIF's o/s problems, I don't see how the effort on their coding can be justified.



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 1/14/2021 7:47:24 PM >

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/14/2021 11:36:40 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		I just think that British submarines won the war in the Med, along with some Light Cruisers and smaller forces. They did impact Rommel’s operations many times.

Perhaps without CV support Malta would have been less tenable overall. This does make me wonder - how often did a CV fly CAP missions to defend Malta? I am only familiar with their ops to ferry fighters to Malta, of which there were several, though the Illustrious was also escorting a desperate supply convoy and probably flying CAP to do it. Did the Tiger convoy include CV air cover? My memory of CVs & Malta is that the CVs couldn’t usually get too close - too dangerous.

Battleships in the Med though; I can’t think of the BBs on either side impacting land operations all that much. The shelling of Monte Cassino is the only thing coming to mind, and fire support at Anzio and Sicily too. Did BBs ever interdict any enemy shipping in the Med?


In CE, the British must set up a solid fleet in Egypt. I have learned to place the CV & 3 BBs in Suez - the hard way. The CW chose to focus their first impulse on land ops in Poland, which definitely messed with the German army. The Italians then declared war; the Royal Navy discovered war had begun when the Glorious exploded in Alexandria harbor with so many charges attached there was not enough bottom left dream of raising it. A 10 Surprise roll for the CW, the Frogmen do have to pass a bit of a saving throw themselves even on the surprise impulse but they did. From that point the luck see-sawed for the rest of the turn. The Damage rolls on the Battleships all passed; but the Abort rolls all failed, leaving 3 flipped BBs and a Cruiser in Alex. as their crews began various emergency repairs far from home. On a subsequent impulse, Italian SUBs in the Red Sea intercepted a troop convoy from India in the Red Sea, nearly sinking it and spiraling the Indian INF back to India until the next turn. This left the Wavell HQ alone in Alex. staring down an Italian army, which then came within one pip on the dice of taking the city, and the port with the stranded Med. Fleet still there. That would have given the bad guys another 30% shot at sinking each ship and that 10% chance of capture. The Frogmen had nearly left a major mark on the war.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/15/2021 12:53:33 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I just think that British submarines won the war in the Med, along with some Light Cruisers and smaller forces. They did impact Rommel’s operations many times.

warspite1

I have some stats I can dig out that may surprise you - just have to remember which book(s) the information is in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Perhaps without CV support Malta would have been less tenable overall. This does make me wonder - how often did a CV fly CAP missions to defend Malta? I am only familiar with their ops to ferry fighters to Malta, of which there were several, though the Illustrious was also escorting a desperate supply convoy and probably flying CAP to do it. Did the Tiger convoy include CV air cover? My memory of CVs & Malta is that the CVs couldn’t usually get too close - too dangerous.

warspite1

The British CV's barely had enough fighter strength for its own purposes. Plus the needs of the Home Fleet and losses meant that there was rarely more than two (two and a half if you count Eagle) in the Med - Ark Royal in the Western Basin and Eagle and later Illustrious until damaged, then Formidable for a time in the Eastern). CV's did not have the capability to station off Malta to provide fighter cover for the island (not to mention the lack of fighter quality provided by the Fulmar). Its why they needed the RAF fighters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Battleships in the Med though; I can’t think of the BBs on either side impacting land operations all that much. The shelling of Monte Cassino is the only thing coming to mind, and fire support at Anzio and Sicily too. Did BBs ever interdict any enemy shipping in the Med?

warspite1

It's important I think, not to look at things with hindsight. The battleships - on both sides - were important in providing cover for convoys to Malta/North Africa/Greece. The Italians had newer, faster, and more powerful BB's. The aircraft replacement for Malta would not have been possible without BB escort for Ark Royal. Ditto the convoys from the east. Look at the Second Battle of Sirte (after the attack on Alexandria). With a more aggressive commander, the Italian battleships should have carved up the British force sans battleships.

One can't think Pacific War for the Mediterranean. Aircraft numbers and quality were not the same. Battleships were very important. Look at Matapan. Air power crippled a cruiser - it was the BB's that sunk the squadron.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 1/15/2021 12:54:53 AM >

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/15/2021 2:12:46 PM   
pzgndr

 

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Status: offline 		Looking at the rule, I wonder if a random event could generate a virtual frogmen 'chit' and prompt the player to make an attack at a designated port. Maybe charge the player for the chit. Then resolve the attack with an automated interception, search roll, and execution. Maybe allow target selection or just keep it random. This could provide the intended historical effect without a lot of complicated coding. Just a thought.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/15/2021 2:46:18 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks! That’s what I wanted to try & recall - where did BBs fire at enemy ships in the Med?

It’s entirely true that hindsight changes perspective, but it is also impossible to avoid in wargaming. The, let’s say ‘efficacy’ of aircraft in naval war went up in WWII and the naval commanders adapted to that in real time. So often I recall histories mentioning not using capital ships somewhere “due to the risk of air attack” - on both sides, in multiple theaters.

I think the historical Italians built around 10,000 aircraft while maintaining a slow but steady CL/CA/BB investment program of construction and upgrades (and replaced a whole lot of lost INF). If you let a person re-cast those decisions 70 years later many will conclude that building 20,000 aircraft and not so much warship steel plate will be more effective. I think that is a prime reason the air force pools were reduced in Collectors Edition - to reduce the players’ latitude to perfectly apply that hindsight.

WiF does quite warp perspective on CV air vs. land-based air when it lets land-based air operate anywhere in a sea zone regardless of base locations (disadvantage to CV), and this warping gets way worse when you can put 2 plane counters on a CV that only held 50-75 aircraft to start with (advantage CV). Playability trade-offs erode accurate views of the history.

So the WiF CW can just rebase planes from Gibraltar to Malta via the sea box, cover supply runs to Malta exclusively with air based in Gibraltar, and never risk exposing their CVs to the Frogmen at all (while defending the supply ships from subs with Cruiser counters). Meanwhile in history, the near loss of the Illustrious was the most Pacific-like action in the Med that I can recall, quite a dramatic running battle that I have always thought would make a good operational naval game or scenario in a far more finely detailed naval game than WiF is.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/15/2021 7:57:42 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Thanks! That’s what I wanted to try & recall - where did BBs fire at enemy ships in the Med?

warspite1

There were only a few - but the point is there could have been more had the Italians been bolder in their approach. But the fact there was so little BB on BB action does not diminish their importance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

Meanwhile in history, the near loss of the Illustrious was the most Pacific-like action in the Med that I can recall, quite a dramatic running battle that I have always thought would make a good operational naval game or scenario in a far more finely detailed naval game than WiF is.

warspite1

What do you mean by 'Pacific-like action'? There was plenty of land based air vs surface vessels (incl. carriers) throughout the Mediterranean War if that is what you refer to.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/15/2021 10:44:37 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		I meant one where the action continued across a time frame longer than just an hour or 2 of enemy contact. And was all in a sustained operation well into the Axis air umbrella, determinedly so. Crete had some similar ops perhaps, but with shorter risk periods, and I think without CV cover for various reasons.

The theaters can’t really be compared, yes, but in WiF we use the same systems to fight in each, and the key unit on the Allied side becomes FTR3s.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/16/2021 6:28:46 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I meant one where the action continued across a time frame longer than just an hour or 2 of enemy contact. And was all in a sustained operation well into the Axis air umbrella, determinedly so. Crete had some similar ops perhaps, but with shorter risk periods, and I think without CV cover for various reasons.

warspite1

It sounds like you are thinking of things like Watchtower or the island hoping operations - which of course is completely different and, as you say, the two theatres in many respects can't be compared.

But I would certainly disagree about the lack of sustained operations and an 'hour or two of enemy contact'. Although not all convoy operations were the same and much depended on the where the Luftwaffe was. It took circa four/five days to get from Alex or Gib to Malta (depending on the nature of the convoy of course). The Axis could attack via sub all along the journey, and by air not just from Sicily, but from Sardinia in the west and from Crete and North Africa. Then there was the Regia Marina both pre entering the straits (larger surface vessels and subs) and after entering (smaller ships, subs and boats). Yes Crete would definitely be included as being sustained operations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

The theaters can’t really be compared, yes, but in WiF we use the same systems to fight in each, and the key unit on the Allied side becomes FTR3s.

warspite1

No - the key unit is the bloody dice

As for the game, I think that regardless of the operation, whether supply of forces, transport of troops, amphibious invasions, sub war or naval gunfire support, World In Flames can't differentiate in detail because it uses a 2-month turn and the sea boxes.

But its a strategic game and to drill down further in a manner that would be seen as more realistic would need a tactical approach. Naval movements and operations were complex but the time needed to mirror such things in a game would be out of proportion to the overall game experience imo.

I mean one could argue that what the sea boxes do in this strategic game is no different from the land or air battles. For example in land combat we stack corps/armies and perhaps some divisions and attack an opposition stack, roll a dice and there you go. There is no finesse or detail - no tactics. But that's accepted because its not that sort of game. The 'tactics' are limited to what units attack.

Same for the navy. I think those sea boxes do a pretty good job bearing in mind these are 2-month turns and the ships and aircraft put into those boxes will be a players best attempts at completing whatever operation(s) they need to complete. It means of course that one misses the detail, but in terms of game scale I think that's fair.

As I have been bleating on about for years, the Mediterranean June 1940 - May 43 is one of the most interesting theatres of World War II. A properly detailed land, air and sea game is crying out to be made. This is genuinely a game that could be 'won' by either side without resorting to artificial rules and counter values. There is just sooooo much to be explored - diplomatic as well as military - before even getting to the actual detail of running air and naval operations in support of the troops on the ground. Italians, Germans, Commonwealth, Iraqis, French, Free French, Vichy French, Americans, Greeks, possibly Spanish, possibly Turkish..... carrier warfare, surface ships, subs, merchant vessels, biplanes, modern fighters, bombers (tactical and strategic), tanks, paras, infantry, special ops, political in-fighting German/Italian, British/Indian/Australian/New Zealand, British/French, German/Spanish/Vichy/Italy, supply is of overriding concern to all ooooohhhhh make no mistake, this game has everything one could wish for in a war game. If only such a game could become reality......



< Message edited by warspite1 -- 1/16/2021 7:04:43 AM >

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/16/2021 2:23:58 PM   
brian brian

 

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Status: offline 		It sounds like you are ready to design a wargame - I’d certainly play it. I think a purely naval game of Med operations would be fascinating. The smaller distances from shore made the light surface forces so much more significant with the capital ships a permanent Maybe as they hover just off-stage. One could hand out Victory Points to each side for each supply convoy or troop transport that reached destination. Events on land could follow a pure historical timeline or a system of random events that would create objectives for the naval forces - Allies invade Sardinia...Hitler sends Rommel extra Panzer division...Civil war in French colony...what have you.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/17/2021 1:00:34 AM   
Neilster


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Status: offline 		A Med game would be excellent. I think the financial realities dictate that (at least the potential for) the invasion of Sicily would need to be included due to the American involvement. Also, the advertising would need to emphasise operations from Nov 42 onward to attract the American market. I just can't see a critical mass of American consumers being interested otherwise.

A similar command system to Command Ops would be my choice (obviously with a significant "upgrade" to handle naval matters). For anyone who hasn't seen that system, it's designed so that you give orders about two levels down in the chain of command and mostly rely on AI subordinates to micromanage (although you can if you want to). It works very well and it reflects how command is in the real world.


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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/17/2021 4:00:04 AM   
Courtenay


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Status: offline 		There is GRD's Wavell's War. Casablanca to Teheran, Thessalonica to Addis Ababa, at 16 miles to the hex! Very detailed air and land; naval units not as detailed but definitely present.

I am sure that Warspite would want more naval rules, but I don't think anyone could ask for more in the way of land or air.

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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/17/2021 9:18:25 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

There is GRD's Wavell's War. Casablanca to Teheran, Thessalonica to Addis Ababa, at 16 miles to the hex! Very detailed air and land; naval units not as detailed but definitely present.

I am sure that Warspite would want more naval rules, but I don't think anyone could ask for more in the way of land or air.
warspite1

Mmmm... the whole GR/D/HMS thing is something of a sore point given the money I invested.

I think one of the problems with the Europa series was the naval aspect. Who knows where the naval rules would have ended up but at the time the whole thing collapsed, the naval aspect - like so many games - was simply the b****** child that no one wanted to think about.

One of the reasons the War in the Med is so fascinating IS the naval aspect. No matter how good the land and air features are, the lack of consideration to the naval war lowers any attempt at a Mediterranean Campaign game.

Those with little or no interest in naval warfare may disagree





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RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 1/17/2021 9:28:19 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

A Med game would be excellent. I think the financial realities dictate that (at least the potential for) the invasion of Sicily would need to be included due to the American involvement. Also, the advertising would need to emphasise operations from Nov 42 onward to attract the American market. I just can't see a critical mass of American consumers being interested otherwise.

warspite1

And this is the thing, money talks and..... Although its strange because the East Front is such a big seller and yet there is a distinct lack of American involvement (lend lease aside ).

What is ironic is that a game - even without Sicily (although by all means add Sicily in if it helps) - there is still American involvement following Torch.

There are also potential what-if scenarios involving Spain that could see earlier US involvement.




_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Neilster)
Post #: 29
RE: Itlaian Frogmen - 2/11/2021 11:57:36 AM   
Angeldust2

 

Posts: 236
Joined: 4/28/2020
Status: offline 		+1

I strongly support the motion to still include FROGMEN as optional rule, if at all possible. Despite understanding at least partly Steve's reservations about coding it, I think, the pro arguments are stronger. All face-to-face board games I have seen being started in the past, had this optional included. The main reason, it is fun and interesting to have such a "small" unit at your disposal and maybe to achieve some effect ...
After all, WiF and MWiF is (sometimes) kind of hard work and not always only pure fun ...
There have been some optionals coded, which were surely also not easily implemented, but which are far less popular with regular players.
Make MWiF more fun!

< Message edited by Angeldust2 -- 3/17/2021 4:47:53 PM >

(in reply to peskpesk)
Post #: 30
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