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Bugs and getting bugged - 1/9/2021 9:33:38 PM

BDukes
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

Hi All

Want to be kind and respectful but this needs to be said.

The game has been buggy. I don't know where that responsiblity lies but xmas version got pulled back and today I found a bunch of things that not work. I did my due diligence and take time to look and report with example. I pass no judgement and in most case ask dev what they think. I do this to help and the reality is I don't have to. That is not the typical relationship between dev and user. It is a good thing though!

That being said nobody perfect and fine for community to test game for devs. The problem is there is heckler who picks and prods way too much. So if idea is for community to test how does this happen with heckler constantly around knitpicking everybody and everything? Does everybody just have to take it like Wayne moderator seems to think we should? Or do we just say..well we try but not worth hassle and hope the beta team catch more stuff than it has lately?
I don't think this outcome anybody want.

I leave this for Dev to consider with no judgement. This was not the way thing used to be.

Thank You

Post #: 1

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 3:33:22 AM

Twistedpretzel
Matrix Recruit

Posts: 47
Joined: 9/6/2020
Status: offline

I might be falling for bait here.

It looks like you added a large number of threads in the tech support section today. I don't know if you expect an immediate response but I will say from what I have seen if not every post there, most get responses from the developers. Maybe not within an hour, or the day, but typically within 5 working days. (Typically, not always) Again, just my anecdotal experience. It does appear to me that they are very caring of this program, and do want to make it the best possible. Having feelings about capabilities of sensors or weapons will usually be shot down. Data driven feedback will be received well. (Example I-Hawk effectiveness) "This probably too aggressive for I-Hawk tech. SDB dimensions are very small. Let you be judge." Is that based off of an open source document you could share? Is it just your opinion? I think they strive to make changes in regards to effectiveness relatively transparent, and from what I have seen will change capabilities if presented with documentation or real world reports with evidence backing the claim being made. Feelings aren't substantial in this genre.

In regards to hecklers and knitpicking, if you are talking about the "Updated DB Image packs are available" thread, I see a single heckler who is very ungrateful and that would be you.

Providing feedback is well received. Feedback defined as, "information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc. which is used as a basis for improvement." The important part is "used as a basis for improvement". Saying this sucks, do better, provides no basis for improvement. This is a very quid pro quo environment. Explaining the witnessed behavior (with saved game, as you have been doing) is good. Explaining the expected behavior specifically is important as well, such as "IR weapon seekers don't see IR signatures". If it is something you can add documentation for as well that is helpful. Like in regards to the GBU-53 (SDB II) or GBU-39 (SDB I) capabilities.

What do you see currently, and what would you prefer to see? Maybe be specific with criticisms and provide actual feedback. You made a thread with a lot of open ended opinionated questions and no real path forward. "This is not typical" Typical compared to what and who? What would you prefer to see? Providing a path forward is key to garnering a positive response. To sum up your entire post it is just, "I feel like this sucks!" but no real rhyme or reason and no solution to the problems you perceive. That will only get you negative responses.

What is the outcome anybody wants, what is the outcome you want? Be specific. Please.

(in reply to BDukes)

Post #: 2

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 10:35:59 AM

pjb1
Matrix Hero

Posts: 676
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twistedpretzel

In regards to hecklers and knitpicking, if you are talking about the "Updated DB Image packs are available" thread, I see a single heckler who is very ungrateful and that would be you.

He means someone else and the heckler is not BDukes, a hint it starts with a K.

(in reply to Twistedpretzel)

Post #: 3

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 10:52:20 AM

BDukes
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

You're falling for somebody else's bait. So let me be straight forward.

1- The guy attacking the image pack team was kinsley51. You'll see I told him to bug off. I'm sure thewood has all kinds of theories of who this might be and why the devs need him to protect them right?
2- My expertise is that my real name is Mike [Redacted so Kevin doesn't go for my job..hehe], you may have known me as Bundy. I was one of the four devs that made CMANO (Dimitris, Paul, Ragnar and Me), a founding member of the Harpoon HQ, and I did some work for that series of game as well. I was key in pushing to hire Rory Anderson, wrote and developed most pro training, and conducted the earliest. I updated the database for close to a year. I ran the beta team and this forum for some time. I developed Chains of War and most of the scenarios Rory was inspired by

I took on this account to be anonymous after I got out. If you've done the job you know why. Just so everybody knows it is me- the awesome Indian restaurant we ate at in the UK was Blue Mint.
3- Thewood is somebody I know from the past. I appreciate that he helped get rid of Herman. I would point out he's in the beta team and yet heckles users in the public group that might have something important to report. This doesn't make sense. Espcially in the context of the game having some bugs and needing eyes on. I'm not looking for a ban- I just want him to cut it out. Same as I used to tell him, repeatedly.He'll stomp around, get some perspective and come back fine in my experience. Rinse repeat.
4- My bug reporting helped make the game you see here today. Obviously, the talented coders deserve the bulk of the credit but the good beta teams we had did their part. I don't know what's going on now but they had to pull a build back and there are some clear issues- aka the weird courses that are generated especially with short distances. How in the heck hasn't that been seen or dealt with? Human's can fix it by micromanaging but the AI cannot. In terms of the SDB issues. If they need more info they'll ask. I kind of go shorthand because of my experience in working with them for years.
5- Your most important point- I want a game that lets me game out things without too many bugs or hassles. I want a db thats reasonably updated and without weird things like half entries like an Israeli F-15E or F-16's with two different air search radars. I want devs to care about the community enough to tell thewood thank you, but cut it out. How I contribute is providing DB entry information in the format they like and likewise submit bug reports when I see stuff. I also ping the thewood when hyde comes out.
6- There is kind of a basic unsaid social contract between dev and public beta testers. It is understood that things could be buggy and that uses accept that. I helped write that. Here's the thing-it works the other way too. The user should expect that things are being done in beta and unit testing. If not, it's not a x-mas gift. It's taking on work.

Hope that was clear, specific or anything else you wanted.

Mike

< Message edited by BDukes -- 1/10/2021 11:23:50 PM >

(in reply to Twistedpretzel)

Post #: 4

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 11:28:04 AM

c3k
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 369
Joined: 4/25/2017
Status: offline

Thanks for posting that.

I, too, have noticed a bit of "beat the messenger" attitude at times from that same poster. (Not always: perhaps there are certain sore spots?)

I've come late to this game. The learning curve is steep, the UI is "finicky" (information is available to the player, but you've got to get finesse your approach), but I have seen significant improvements in each successive release.

I understand that it can be difficult as a developer or tester to hear the same "problem" for the umpteenth time and then have to explain that it's not a problem. It is still best to remain polite.

Again, thanks for posting this.

Ken

(in reply to BDukes)

Post #: 5

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 12:50:30 PM

thewood1
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

This sure doesn't sound like the guy above from the Boston area:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4547080

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4557469

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4559138

And this one is the most puzzling:

"Matrix p, Iian et all. I took a good look and this forum is a snake pit. New users are consistently beaten down by generally the same guy who does seem to have a card to do so. He regularly calls people names and rides line. Others are emulating to be part of bully club. It is not a good culture.I have bought many of your games and now reconsidering it completely. Customers have way too many ways to spend their money now."

In other posts he talks about English not being his primary language and you can see that the posting style is very rough. Compare that to the above. Its not just the limited English, but the very immature posting style. There is something very fishy here.

1) Mike posted excellent English when he was posting as part of the dev team under his name
2) He claims that BDukes is Mike, yet his English language and posting skills really had to have degenerated in the month or two after he quit the team.
3) BDukes historically posted in spurts only when I was posting something
4) BDukes posting style and English suddenly improve in the last month or so and starts posting very technically detailed bug reports.

BDukes is either not who he claims he is or Mike has taken over a forum name and was using it as a sock puppet. Either way kind of bad form.

Take a look at this entire thread and tell me this sounds like Mike or maybe even the guy posting above.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4438086&mpage=1&key=BDukes�

(in reply to c3k)

Post #: 6

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 1:14:39 PM

BDukes
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

This sure doesn't sound like the guy above from the Boston area:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4547080

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4557469

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4559138

And this one is the most puzzling:

"Matrix p, Iian et all. I took a good look and this forum is a snake pit. New users are consistently beaten down by generally the same guy who does seem to have a card to do so. He regularly calls people names and rides line. Others are emulating to be part of bully club. It is not a good culture.I have bought many of your games and now reconsidering it completely. Customers have way too many ways to spend their money now."

In other posts he talks about English not being his primary language and you can see that the posting style is very rough. Compare that to the above. Its not just the limited English, but the very immature posting style. There is something very fishy here.

1) Mike posted excellent English when he was posting as part of the dev team under his name
2) He claims that BDukes is Mike, yet his English language and posting skills really had to have degenerated in the month or two after he quit the team.
3) BDukes historically posted in spurts only when I was posting something
4) BDukes posting style and English suddenly improve in the last month or so and starts posting very technically detailed bug reports.

BDukes is either not who he claims he is or Mike has taken over a forum name and was using it as a sock puppet. Either way kind of bad form.

Take a look at this entire thread and tell me this sounds like Mike or maybe even the guy posting above.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4438086&mpage=1&key=BDukes�

Nope its me. I took on that role to gain some anonymity and still help. It worked. It actually interesting to see how people respond to foreign-sounding people. Particularly you.

Ok some more proof its me.

I'm also on Kushan's discord.

Let me know if some other proof of life is required but you're getting creepier and more manipulative by the post. Please stop.

Oh and if you wanted to dig into the, its all about Kevin wormhole.

Most of my posts have been DB requests. That's easy to see as the string is filled with me.

Mike

< Message edited by BDukes -- 1/10/2021 11:22:43 PM >

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 7

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 1:30:14 PM

BDukes
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: c3k

Thanks for posting that.

I, too, have noticed a bit of "beat the messenger" attitude at times from that same poster. (Not always: perhaps there are certain sore spots?)

I've come late to this game. The learning curve is steep, the UI is "finicky" (information is available to the player, but you've got to get finesse your approach), but I have seen significant improvements in each successive release.

I understand that it can be difficult as a developer or tester to hear the same "problem" for the umpteenth time and then have to explain that it's not a problem. It is still best to remain polite.

Again, thanks for posting this.

Ken

Agree and thanks. I really think 99% percent of posters have the best of intentions. I also think though that how users communicate (tone, etc) has changed significantly. I get the angst about that and I don't know if I could still do it to be honest just because of how I'm wired. Anyways need to adjust and try and shape the communications so they turn better. Having an attack doggie roving around pouncing on everybody is not a great approach. Judging from what I'm seeing in my PM's. Others agree.

Mike

< Message edited by BDukes -- 1/10/2021 1:31:06 PM >

(in reply to c3k)

Post #: 8

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 1:33:19 PM

thewood1
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

While I respect the work you did on CMO, trying to sound foreign and faking poor english is at a minimum a very childish and immature way to communicate, if its true. Even before the wokeness we all live in today, pretending to be from another culture and background is the poorest approach you can take.

I married into a family of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants and it's incredibly offensive and disheartening to know someone I had respect for plays at that kind of game. I sure hope WarFareSims has nothing to do with you in the future.

(in reply to BDukes)

Post #: 9

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 1:36:46 PM

BDukes
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

I think I've said what needs to be said. Now I'm going to go play the game and if I see something that needs to be fixed, I'll post about it. Should I write in Bostonian for Revere's finest?

Dear Dev. This bug is a real pissa...

Mike

< Message edited by BDukes -- 1/10/2021 11:25:19 PM >

(in reply to BDukes)

Post #: 10

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 1:49:05 PM

thewood1
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

In today's environment, I wouldn't so freely admit to pretending to pass yourself off as non-english speaking too loudly when people know where you work. Its very unforgiving out there.

(in reply to BDukes)

Post #: 11

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 1:51:13 PM

BDukes
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

While I respect the work you did on CMO, trying to sound foreign and faking poor english is at a minimum a very childish and immature way to communicate, if its true. Even before the wokeness we all live in today, pretending to be from another culture and background is the poorest approach you can take.

I married into a family of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants and it's incredibly offensive and disheartening to know someone I had respect for plays at that kind of game. I sure hope WarFareSims has nothing to do with you in the future.

Pal, I don't care what you think about anything. Not because I'm arrogant but because your actions and words have shaped how I view anything coming from you.My friends here know who I am and what I'm about. They don't look at your posts for that.

Now adding you to the block list again. Gonna go play the game and have some fun. Try not to lose another user in the meantime...

Thanks!

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 12

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 1:52:23 PM

BDukes
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

In today's environment, I wouldn't so freely admit to pretending to pass yourself off as non-english speaking too loudly when people know where you work. Its very unforgiving out there.

This is online threat. You do know that right? What do you think you can actually do to my job Kevin?

Blocked.

Mike

< Message edited by BDukes -- 1/10/2021 1:53:23 PM >

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 13

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 2:13:56 PM

thewood1
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

Its not a threat at all. Just an observation. I have seen people virtually drawn and quartered for things less severe than pretending to be from another country and culture. Just look at the news. And then you used you real name in this thread. Just seems like sooner or later someone will see that.

In fact, if I were you, I'd remove that part and your name. Having them in the same thread is just asking trouble.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 1/10/2021 2:15:15 PM >

(in reply to BDukes)

Post #: 14

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 2:20:07 PM

Dimitris
Moderator

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes

Hi All

Want to be kind and respectful but this needs to be said.

The game has been buggy. I don't know where that responsiblity lies but xmas version got pulled back and today I found a bunch of things that not work. I did my due diligence and take time to look and report with example. I pass no judgement and in most case ask dev what they think. I do this to help and the reality is I don't have to. That is not the typical relationship between dev and user. It is a good thing though!

That being said nobody perfect and fine for community to test game for devs. The problem is there is heckler who picks and prods way too much. So if idea is for community to test how does this happen with heckler constantly around knitpicking everybody and everything? Does everybody just have to take it like Wayne moderator seems to think we should? Or do we just say..well we try but not worth hassle and hope the beta team catch more stuff than it has lately?
I don't think this outcome anybody want.

I leave this for Dev to consider with no judgement. This was not the way thing used to be.

Thank You

Thank you for the issue reports. They will be investigated by members of the dev team, as with all other reports. We will also strive to improve our internal testing & QA processes.

_____________________________

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(in reply to BDukes)

Post #: 15

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 2:24:07 PM

BDukes
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Its not a threat at all. Just an observation. I have seen people virtually drawn and quartered for things less severe than pretending to be from another country and culture. Just look at the news. And then you used you real name in this thread. Just seems like sooner or later someone will see that.

In fact, if I were you, I'd remove that part and your name. Having them in the same thread is just asking trouble.

Still trying to show some power with fear and provoke a reaction. You've never seen anybody drawn and quartered

You have no power over anybody here. Cut it out already.

Look I took on cancer this year. What exactly do you think a forum bully like you has next to that? Keep flexing.

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 16

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 2:26:10 PM

BDukes
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris

quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes

Hi All

Want to be kind and respectful but this needs to be said.

The game has been buggy. I don't know where that responsiblity lies but xmas version got pulled back and today I found a bunch of things that not work. I did my due diligence and take time to look and report with example. I pass no judgement and in most case ask dev what they think. I do this to help and the reality is I don't have to. That is not the typical relationship between dev and user. It is a good thing though!

That being said nobody perfect and fine for community to test game for devs. The problem is there is heckler who picks and prods way too much. So if idea is for community to test how does this happen with heckler constantly around knitpicking everybody and everything? Does everybody just have to take it like Wayne moderator seems to think we should? Or do we just say..well we try but not worth hassle and hope the beta team catch more stuff than it has lately?
I don't think this outcome anybody want.

I leave this for Dev to consider with no judgement. This was not the way thing used to be.

Thank You

Thank you for the issue reports. They will be investigated by members of the dev team, as with all other reports. We will also strive to improve our internal testing & QA processes.

That is all I can ask. Thank you!

Mike

(in reply to Dimitris)

Post #: 17

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 4:09:59 PM

thewood1
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

btw, I said virtually drawn and quartered.

So much for the block.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 1/10/2021 4:10:20 PM >

(in reply to BDukes)

Post #: 18

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 5:09:00 PM

BDukes
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

This string is done. I've said what needs to be said and the devs are gonna do what they can. I'm happy as a clam.

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 19

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 5:25:58 PM

Twistedpretzel
Matrix Recruit

Posts: 47
Joined: 9/6/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pjb1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twistedpretzel

In regards to hecklers and knitpicking, if you are talking about the "Updated DB Image packs are available" thread, I see a single heckler who is very ungrateful and that would be you.

He means someone else and the heckler is not BDukes, a hint it starts with a K.

Ah yes, that was my mistake.

(in reply to pjb1)

Post #: 20

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 5:42:30 PM

thewood1
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes

This string is done. I've said what needs to be said and the devs are gonna do what they can. I'm happy as a clam.

Not quite, you brought my name into this.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4438086&mpage=1&key=BDukes%26%2365533%3B

Can you explain this thread again? The entire time you were PMing me and then dragging it out into public you were pretending to be someone else? Throwing around personal attacks. Someone where English is not a first language. There is something odd still in all of this.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 1/10/2021 5:44:01 PM >

(in reply to BDukes)

Post #: 21

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 5:52:42 PM

thewood1
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

And then this one...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4432798

He is actually pretending not to know anything about the reasons the devs are doing stuff. He's actually giving them grief while pretending to not know the answer. I would consider that kind of underhanded and creepy for someone who had left the company only a month or so before those posts. And he's using that "English not my first language" affectation.

Am I the only one that finds this weird and just a little troubling?

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 22

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 6:11:57 PM

p1t1o
Matrix Veteran

Posts: 271
Joined: 4/6/2015
Status: offline

omg...

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 23

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 6:12:35 PM

thewood1
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

Exactly

(in reply to p1t1o)

Post #: 24

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 6:45:32 PM

BDukes
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

You win Kevin. Can we move on now.

< Message edited by BDukes -- 1/10/2021 6:49:16 PM >

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 25

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 7:17:53 PM

ultradave
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1355
Joined: 8/20/2013
Status: offline

This whole thing and following all the links is pretty weird.

No, very weird.

Dave

_____________________________

----------------
Dave A.
"When the Boogeyman goes to sleep he checks his closet for paratroopers"

(in reply to BDukes)

Post #: 26

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 7:21:00 PM

thewood1
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes

You win Kevin. Can we move on now.

What happened to blocking "Mike"

(in reply to BDukes)

Post #: 27

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 7:29:57 PM

BDukes
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ultradave

This whole thing and following all the links is pretty weird.

No, very weird.

Dave

LOL. Video game world never really been a source of normalcy.

Mike

< Message edited by BDukes -- 1/10/2021 7:30:11 PM >

(in reply to ultradave)

Post #: 28

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 7:33:40 PM

BDukes
Matrix Elite Guard

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes

You win Kevin. Can we move on now.

What happened to blocking "Mike"

Honestly dunno. The defensive line opted out and a bunch of covid cases. Some say it always was that bad and Brady was that good. A question worth pondering.Go Pats next year though!

Mike

(in reply to thewood1)

Post #: 29

RE: Bugs and getting bugged - 1/10/2021 7:35:52 PM

thewood1
Matrix Legion of Merit

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline

SO I guess you are avoiding the answer and not blocking...OK.

(in reply to BDukes)

Post #: 30