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RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 8/21/2020 3:40:43 AM   
Hairog


Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline 		Hubert's AI does an amazing job of using the screening forces to protect Fast Carrier, Strike, Bombardment and Raider task forces. I was very surprised at how well it did in modifying itself to use the new setup. It will give you a run for your money. In my run throughs it did not attempt to hit and run and protected its own forces rather well. I think it does a much better job at this mod than it does the base game.

It is a tribute to Huberts programing skills that the AI adapts so well to such and dramatic change, but it seems to very nicely. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Of course, it's not as good as another human.

I just wish the naval mods could become part of the vanilla game. With Hubert's tweaks and programing assistance, what I did could become a very awesome addition to an excellent gaming system and quell the negative vibes that the current system generates. I can't even spell programing and I have a huge problem with messing with scripts so if I could come close to improving the base game imagine what Hubert could do.

The Battle of Jutland is a hoot with the changes I made to SC3 WWI.

Anyway give it a try and let me know what you think. I believe it will be worth your time and effort.

_____________________________

WW III 1946 Books
SC3 EAW WW Three 1946 Mod and Naval Mods
WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 31
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 9/6/2020 12:28:44 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		Just wanted to echo Hairog's comment above on the flexibility of the game system and Hubert's personal support of modders and players alike.

I own WWI, WiE, and WaW, but have been away from the games for some time. I just installed the Naval Mod with no issues. What struck me was just how "clean" looking these games are. Really nothing like them in terms of the moderate difficulty level, constant dev support, and overall playability.

Not being for sale on Steam, I assume there is an existing pool of players that keep the series going. And I hope the sales warrant just how good this system is going back to the Battlefront days until now.

Thanks very much to the devs and modders for keeping these games so vibrant!

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 32
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 10/21/2020 6:36:33 PM   
rarothl

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 12/11/2018
Status: offline 		I just wanted to add that I really like many of the aspects of the naval mod, especially the fact that subs are a bit easier to defend & destroy and carrier TF's are more powerful. Also the units have different strengths which is how it should be, IMO.
I do have a few questions:
Is it possible to attack TF's in port by the navy or only by aircraft?
What exactly in this mod does Zone of Control effect as regards the navy?(It seems that I cannot attack within this zone)
How is it best to attack carrier TF? It doesn't seem that subs can attack at all and other navy units have little effect on carriers. Again does it have to do with Zone of control?
I also was wondering if it is possible to edit the game so that it can't rebuild loss units at a reduced cost and over fewer months.
I like the idea of rebuilding but I think the cost should be more(perhaps half) & take longer to refit.
Thanks for all the effort that was put into making the naval mod.

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 33
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 12/4/2020 7:53:09 PM   
edward77

 

Posts: 68
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		I agree that the Navel mod is terrific adding a new dimension to SC3. What are the chances of the other scenarios having a version?

(in reply to rarothl)
Post #: 34
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 12/26/2020 5:24:45 PM   
Hairog


Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline 		I have them done. I just never had anyone call for them. I'll wrangle them up and make them available in the next couple of days.

And glad you like them.

_____________________________

WW III 1946 Books
SC3 EAW WW Three 1946 Mod and Naval Mods
WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

(in reply to edward77)
Post #: 35
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 12/26/2020 6:03:39 PM   
Hairog


Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline 		Sorry I missed this one until today.

quote:

What exactly in this mod does Zone of Control effect as regards the navy?(It seems that I cannot attack within this zone)


The ZOC do not affect the ability to attack if you have operational points remaining. All they do is effect movement. Most times you use up your Op points trying to get to your target due to Screening TF doing their job.

quote:

How is it best to attack carrier TF? It doesn't seem that subs can attack at all and other navy units have little effect on carriers. Again does it have to do with Zone of control?


You will have close to no luck in engaging a CV Task Force with surface combat and this is how it should be. As I've often said, only two carriers were sunk by gunfire in all of WWII and both have very unusual circumstances surrounding the events.
The zones of control will only use up movement points and could prevent you from attacking due the lack of Ops points. Otherwise, there is no other effect. Another feature in the mod is a huge increase in defensive evasion for the carriers. This represents reality and I suggest that even if you have the Ops Points to attack you will only have a 40% chance of scoring any hits and those hits will in turn be reduced compared to the ummodded version.

All these changes are added to more clearly reflect reality. CV Task Forces were able to scout vast distances with their planes and that kept them out of harms way. A properly screened CV Task Force will not be caught or attacked.
The best way to attack a CV Task Force is with air power and if given the chance, with subs.

quote:

I also was wondering if it is possible to edit the game so that it can't rebuild loss units at a reduced cost and over fewer months.


The only major change that I made was to dramatically reduce the rebuild times of the Screening Task Forces and the Recon as well. Task Forces are not destroyed when they are "shattered" but made inoperable, so much so that they have to return to port and get refitted and replace any losses. Destroyers and Light Cruisers were constantly being sunk and replaced. Over 200 were lost in WWII. To increase the rebuild times and reduces cost would dramatically change the dynamics of the Mod.
There is a way to do it, just like I changed them in the first place thanks to the excellent editing tools designed by Bill and Hubert. I can't remember off the top of my head, but there is a window that you can change both.

quote:

Thanks for all the effort that was put into making the naval mod.


Glad you enjoy them and thanks for the feedback.

_____________________________

WW III 1946 Books
SC3 EAW WW Three 1946 Mod and Naval Mods
WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 36
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 12/31/2020 6:49:20 PM   
edward77

 

Posts: 68
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		Hairog, Loved the Naval Mod in WaW. It adds a new dimension to the game. Tried to play the WiE version ie 39 Storm Europe Nav Mod. Looks good too with the new counters. After Poland the German AI quickly sets up on the French Border, declares War but then stays at the Border 3 or 4 units deep, only attacking with Aircraft, right through to Nov 40. At this stage I stopped, thinking something must be wrong. Checking in the Editor received message that many of the scripts need to be updated? Please help!

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 37
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 12/31/2020 10:17:40 PM   
BillRunacre

 

Posts: 4945
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline 		If you get that message then it means that something has been changed that needs the scripts to be recompiled. When that message comes up, press No and then press the Update* button (it's one of those that come up).

Only if the scripts are compiled will all the events in a game fire properly.

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Post #: 38
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/1/2021 9:14:35 PM   
edward77

 

Posts: 68
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		Many thanks Bill for your prompt and effective reply. Works fine now apart from a few trivial graphic problems. French fleet still has old ship counters. Really enjoying this one!

(in reply to BillRunacre)
Post #: 39
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/2/2021 3:02:22 PM   
Hairog


Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline 		Thanks again Bill! I was remiss in reading my mail with the holidays and all. I was just about to type a response similar to yours when I saw my work had been done.
Now where did I put those other modified scenarios?

_____________________________

WW III 1946 Books
SC3 EAW WW Three 1946 Mod and Naval Mods
WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

(in reply to edward77)
Post #: 40
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/10/2021 3:07:18 PM   
edward77

 

Posts: 68
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		Hairog, Hope you can find them. The one I am particularly interested in is "Triumph & Tragedy"

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 41
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/14/2021 2:51:07 AM   
Hairog


Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline 		Found them!! Whoot! I got them all

HERE

Enjoy
Harry

_____________________________

WW III 1946 Books
SC3 EAW WW Three 1946 Mod and Naval Mods
WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

(in reply to edward77)
Post #: 42
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/16/2021 11:57:37 AM   
edward77

 

Posts: 68
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		Thank you very much for the files.

< Message edited by edward77 -- 1/16/2021 6:02:26 PM >

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 43
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/17/2021 11:29:44 PM   
Hairog


Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline 		You're welcome.

Did you get them installed? If so please do an AAR so I can see if everything is working right.

_____________________________

WW III 1946 Books
SC3 EAW WW Three 1946 Mod and Naval Mods
WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

(in reply to edward77)
Post #: 44
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/19/2021 9:09:12 PM   
TangSooDo

 

Posts: 54
Joined: 4/1/2008
Status: offline 		I have been playing the 1939 WiE naval mod 3.3. Is that the latest version? I ask because I had recently played WaW naval mod and found differences. As well as I can remember in WaW all tf's got two strikes and hunter killers were more powerful. I have really enjoyed both and actually did a very minor edit to the WiE one to permit two strikes by hunter killer tf's. I am in mid 1944 in WiE playing Allies vs. Axis AI. The AI is good. One interesting feature is that Germany keeps spawning screening tf's to attack two British wolfpacks harrassing the Norway convoy route.

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 45
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 2/7/2021 1:28:37 PM   
edward77

 

Posts: 68
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		Hairog, I have not done an AAR but I did play the "Allied Turns the Tide with Naval Mod" scenario through to its final conclusion. With the time limit off I finally won in Dec 46. The naval mod performed well and presented a much greater and better challenge than the same scenario in vanilla mode. I have a few pictures but cannot work out how to load them in the post. There was one error where a US Fast Carrier (possibily the same one each time) which on attempting a move dropped from 21 to 0 Action points in 1 hex. This happened 3 or 4 times over the whole scenario so it is a rare phenomena.
Just one observation. The game encourages a player to keep sea units in Ports where they can be upgraded and benefit from the extra protection but are still able to avoid attacks. In real life they would be sitting ducks!
Anyway Viva La Naval Mod!
[image][/image]

< Message edited by edward77 -- 2/7/2021 1:55:18 PM >

(in reply to TangSooDo)
Post #: 46
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 2/11/2021 6:23:57 AM   
Hairog


Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TangSooDo

I have been playing the 1939 WiE naval mod 3.3. Is that the latest version?


Yes 3.3 is the latest. I'm glad you are enjoying the mods. I had fun making them.

_____________________________

WW III 1946 Books
SC3 EAW WW Three 1946 Mod and Naval Mods
WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

(in reply to TangSooDo)
Post #: 47
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 2/11/2021 6:27:27 AM   
Hairog


Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: edward77

Hairog, I have not done an AAR but I did play the "Allied Turns the Tide with Naval Mod" scenario through to its final conclusion. With the time limit off I finally won in Dec 46.


Good job edward77! Glad to hear you enjoyed playing and took it to the end. Love to see the pics and read the AAR.

If you want to attach pics, don't choose the "Fast Reply" You can't attach files if you use that.




< Message edited by Hairog -- 2/11/2021 6:30:40 AM >

_____________________________

WW III 1946 Books
SC3 EAW WW Three 1946 Mod and Naval Mods
WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

(in reply to edward77)
Post #: 48
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 4/27/2021 7:40:15 PM   
JTMarsh

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 4/27/2021
Status: offline 		Are submarines now prohibited from attacking other submarines in the naval mod? No matter if I set my subs to hunt or silent I cannot attack enemy submarines. It doesn't seem to matter whether they're in hunt or silent either, because I've tried attacking subs that have just dove from other attacks, and I've tried attacking those that were in hunt mode and interdicting my supply lines, and in neither case was I allowed to attack with my own subs.

Was this intentional? If so, I don't get the point. Some of the best WWII movies are those in which two submarines are locked in a naval struggle with one another, in an underwater game of cat and mouse if you will. The other odd thing is, the properties still show attack and defense values for subs attacking/defending against other subs? Hope to hear some feedback on this. Thanks.

P.S. - Another note, in the vanilla version of the game, a silent sub cannot stop a surface vessel from cruising over it. I feel like silent subs should be the exception when it comes to ZOC, and they should not project any at all. As it stands now though, enemy subs whether silent or not, will still exhibit ZOC on my subs as they try to pass by, but I cannot attack them with my subs. This is problematic, in the fact that the enemy can use their subs as invincible ZOC modifiers against me trying to penetrate their lines to go after surface vessels. Just doesn't seem right from a gameplay mechanics standpoint.

< Message edited by JTMarsh -- 4/27/2021 7:45:55 PM >

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 49
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 4/28/2021 8:58:16 AM   
BillRunacre

 

Posts: 4945
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline 		Subs attacking other subs isn't possible, as otherwise people would use them as their main anti-sub weapon because even if they were given a low attack value, they would themselves be fairly safe from attack in doing so.

While you are right that subs did attack and sink each other on occasions, at a macro scale they were never the main go-to weapon when it came to dealing with enemy submarines. That role belonging mainly to destroyers and either long-range aircraft or Carrier borne air.

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Post #: 50
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 4/29/2021 12:24:00 AM   
JTMarsh

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 4/27/2021
Status: offline 		Thank you for the prompt reply, Bill. I can understand your reasoning completely, and, I actually went to look it up to see how many times a sub "dogfighted" with another sub in WWII and actually sank it, because I was curious myself. It was a mind blowing 1 time! LOL! I had no idea. So, it's true when they say you learn something new everyday. It's also true that Hollywood takes a lot of liberties with reality.

And, to touch on my post script, I also read about how convoys would alter their routes constantly just by having a "potential threat" from enemy submarines, even if there were none actually there. This would give justification for ZOC properties when following this logic, even if the sub is running silent. I was just worried that it was something I was doing wrong, or not completely understanding, so either way I thank you again for clarifying this.

I'd also just like to end by saying thank you one more time for making one hell of a game. In my 30 years of gaming I've played a lot of strategy games, but I can say with confidence that Strategic Command is now the best I've touched yet! Keep up the good work sir!

< Message edited by JTMarsh -- 4/29/2021 12:26:35 AM >

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Post #: 51
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 4/29/2021 6:40:52 PM   
BillRunacre

 

Posts: 4945
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline 		Thanks JTMarsh, that is great to hear!

As to Hollywood, it can tell a good story at times and sometimes we just have to forgive them for their inaccuracies in return. Though maybe not always... Mel Gibson's Patriot springs to mind as an exception!

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Post #: 52
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 5/14/2021 9:49:22 PM   
JTMarsh

 

Posts: 3
Joined: 4/27/2021
Status: offline 		Wow! I just sent in the entire Italian navy to engage one solitary UK BB, and the results were unbelievable to say the least. It managed to evade 3 Italian BB's attacks completely (that's six strikes altogether, with a 5-5 damage odds chance each battle), while firing back and killing 2 of the 3 attacking BB's, and wounding the third. (I evaded once, so bad RNG rolls to say the least.) So, I have to stop right here for a second and throw out a huge red flag. Why are my BB's only allowed 2 strikes, but yet he was allowed infinite defensive strikes back??? Does this thing ever have to stop to reload her guns?!?!

Anyways, lets continue. At this point I said the heck with it, and figured the entire Italian navy was wasted now anyways, so I decided to throw the whole kitchen sink at this one ship just to see if I could sink her. 2 subs, a recon, 2 raiders, and a screening task force later, and she still didn't die! (Only took 2 damage from a CA, and 1 from a sub.) In fact, she managed to retreat twice, despite being nearly completely surrounded (so much for zone of control), and found safe haven inside an island port just south of Greece, while evading the other shots too, and sinking 1 of the CA's! I will also add, that all of my ships were at full strength, with both navies sporting the naval weapons level 1 upgrade, so we were on par almost exactly (however my morale was higher).

In conclusion, I like the concepts put forward by this mod, but it just doesn't work out very well at all. In general, I feel defending ships should have their defensive strikes limited to only 2, same as the attackers # of attacks, to give the attacker some level of tactical advantage if he wants to attack with multiple ships against one. Especially since the defender already gets the advantages of fog of war and surprise strikes. Also, the evasion mechanic should only apply to subs that dive, and for surface vessels it should be changed to a % possible damage reduction instead of evasion and retreat. This would also keep ships from being able to just retreat into port constantly, which is bogus to begin with, because a fleet at anchor should be a sitting duck!

I like realism in a game just as much as the next guy, but when it breaks the mechanics of said game, like in the example above, you have to let game balance be the ultimate winner in the end. Hope my recommendations can spur some new ideas to maybe tweak the mod in the future, if not, then I'll just go back to playing the vanilla version.

(P.S.- And holy cow! The German submarines are just UK punching bags now! LOL! Cheers!)

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 53
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 5/15/2021 12:04:08 AM   
Elessar2


Posts: 883
Joined: 11/30/2016
Status: offline 		Each attack does knock the defending ship down one point of supply, and I've always found that they are less effective (both ways) when their supply hits 5 or below. But yeah the evasion %'s here simply give the Dice Gods too much sway.

(in reply to JTMarsh)
Post #: 54
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 9/26/2021 7:40:49 AM   
Hairog


Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline 		Wow! Has anyone else have a similar experience? In all my testing this never occurred to me. I need some verification from at least one other to see if this was just a one off or a systemic problem.

I did build in some pretty hefty evasion figures because this is what really happened. How many ships and planes did it take to track down the Bismark or the Graff Spee? It was 4 AVs! 3 BBs and 16 CAs for the Graff Spee and 2 CVa, 6 BBs, 13 CAs and 21 DDs for the Bismark.It was very hard to track down a ship in the open ocean...very hard. Many of what you would call attacks were attempts to find the ship in question. In other words most of your attacks were actually attempts to find said ship. I'm very surprised at the planes not being able to find and attack effectively. I'll have to look at this one.

There should not have been so much damage to the attackers however, and I will check it out. Do remember the HMS Hood or the cruisers Exeter, Ajax, and Achilles however.

As far as the surface attacks, the evasions are statisticaly accurate, and that was my goal. I know the vanilla version is much funner than my version but I would argue that the Naval Mods mimic reality much more closely.

In addition the BB unit probably has 2 BBs a few CAs and a dozen DDs and not one BB.

As to being surrounded, this is a game mechanics problem because of the one unit per hex, no ship was ever surrounded in the open ocean that I know of. Many of them did just what your RN BB did. They survived took some damage and found a port and were blockaded and eventually scuttled.

So as frustrating as your experience was, it did reflect reality. So if you want fun and not accuracy then the vanilla is the way to go.

< Message edited by Hairog -- 9/26/2021 7:46:36 AM >

_____________________________

WW III 1946 Books
SC3 EAW WW Three 1946 Mod and Naval Mods
WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

(in reply to Elessar2)
Post #: 55
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 10/21/2021 9:29:05 AM   
CaesarAug

 

Posts: 160
Joined: 6/23/2015
Status: offline 		Hairog, I really like your ideas and am experimenting and tweaking them for my home made mod.

Question: carrier-based attacks are its aircraft complement, of course, but in game terms, it is considered a “naval” attack, though with the “carrier” attack stats, right?

Ok so the “naval” attack/defence evasion percentages (in general but particularly referring to carriers themselves here) I presume likewise apply to carrier aircraft attacks?

In other words, the 60% or 70% carrier naval evasion defence rating applies not only to surface and submarine attacks against carriers, but also towards enemy carrier aircraft attacks? Am I understanding this correctly? Thanks!

< Message edited by CaesarAug -- 10/21/2021 9:30:03 AM >

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 56
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 11/4/2021 5:50:07 AM   
Hairog


Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline 		I always assumed so, but if I had my way, all naval unit classes by country, would have custom mod worthy evasion ratings against air attack, surface attack, and sub attack. If Bill or Hubert are slumming and have dropped down from their mighty heights, maybe they could give us both a better answer and maybe a better solution.

< Message edited by Hairog -- 11/4/2021 5:52:07 AM >

_____________________________

WW III 1946 Books
SC3 EAW WW Three 1946 Mod and Naval Mods
WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

(in reply to CaesarAug)
Post #: 57
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 11/4/2021 10:01:40 AM   
BillRunacre

 

Posts: 4945
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline 		The evasion settings won't prevent damage from air attacks, only from surface (or land) attacks.

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(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 58
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 11/6/2021 3:26:13 AM   
Hairog


Posts: 1645
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Cornucopia, WI
Status: offline 		That's not what I thought,and that fits in with the mod very well, very well. That is very nice to know and one more thing to not think about.

Thanks Bill.

< Message edited by Hairog -- 11/6/2021 4:11:33 AM >

_____________________________

WW III 1946 Books
SC3 EAW WW Three 1946 Mod and Naval Mods
WarPlan and WarPlan Pac Alpha and Be

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Post #: 59
RE: 1939 Naval Mod - 1/4/2022 9:09:10 AM   
derDan81

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 12/13/2021
Status: offline 		Hi,

I just wanted to ask, which game version of Strategic Command WWII your 1939 Naval Mod is supporting? Is it the version 1.05 as for the Community Pack or do you have an updated version to download for the newest version of the game (version 1.13.00 I guess)? I'm playing the game with steam, if that helps.

Looking forward to try out your mod :)

(in reply to Hairog)
Post #: 60
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