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Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/18/2021 2:48:19 AM

Mercutio

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Only my second game, but it seems the AI never builds a new zone. The last major usually has a massive zone that I have to build cities on the way to even replenish/supply my troops on the way to their capital. Anyone else notice this?

It seems it would be in the AIs interest to build more cities to be able to produce more things.

Post #: 1

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/18/2021 3:03:56 AM

jimwinsor

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Unfortunately, that�s the way it is ... the AI does not colonize.

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RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/18/2021 9:22:19 AM

stryc

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Never. At least, I've never seen it happen. It's one of the biggest problems I have with the game, particularly as the game likes to attach itself to the '4X' tag (even tho it's only '3X' in terms of what the AI does).

I'm kind of okay with all the other cheats that the AI has, every AI cheats to a certain degree, even the cheat that has the AI ignore most of the systems that the player has to master; however, the AI not expanding outside of conquest is a _serious_ AI weakness. This moves beyond merely ignoring a discrete game system, it's ignoring a fundamental aspect of a game of this genre. It's not a million miles away from playing Civ against an AI that can't found new cities.

< Message edited by stryc -- 1/18/2021 9:24:24 AM >

(in reply to jimwinsor)

Post #: 3

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/18/2021 9:32:13 AM

zgrssd

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quote:

Only my second game, but it seems the AI never builds a new zone. The last major usually has a massive zone that I have to build cities on the way to even replenish/supply my troops on the way to their capital.

It is not nesseary to do anything of the sort. You can place truckstop/rail head combinations everywhere on the map in regular intervalls.
As long as Admin strain does not exceed 9%, there should be no penalty.

(in reply to Mercutio)

Post #: 4

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/18/2021 7:52:57 PM

newageofpower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stryc

Never. At least, I've never seen it happen. It's one of the biggest problems I have with the game, particularly as the game likes to attach itself to the '4X' tag (even tho it's only '3X' in terms of what the AI does).

I'm kind of okay with all the other cheats that the AI has, every AI cheats to a certain degree, even the cheat that has the AI ignore most of the systems that the player has to master; however, the AI not expanding outside of conquest is a _serious_ AI weakness. This moves beyond merely ignoring a discrete game system, it's ignoring a fundamental aspect of a game of this genre. It's not a million miles away from playing Civ against an AI that can't found new cities.

The AI doesn't have a good way to optimize "This spot is a good spot for a new zone". So Single Player functionality will be somewhat limited.

The MP community is pretty vibrant; you can see Saros's AAR for an idea of whats going on.

(in reply to stryc)

Post #: 5

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/19/2021 11:15:05 PM

Uemon

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Regardless of the fact that AI is probably not smart enough to make new cities, even bigger issue is the fact that you shouldnt do that either.

A new zone with no population requires so much work and micromanagement in order to grow it to the point where it actually starts contributing anything, that its simply not worth it.

The way that this game works is all major production buildings can only be built inside a city (with some power buildings like solar panels being an exception). Higher the building tier, more efficient and the bigger production is. And here is the catch: building levels are tied to city levels. And they start going really up after city level 4 and 5. And we are talking 200.000 population here. A single level 4 or 5 production building will produce more resources than like a dozen level 1s, and its also FAR more efficient high tech machinery wise.

So it is infinitely more efficient and effective to focus on just one city (your capital) and grow it, so that you unlock higher tier production buildings that will allow you to 1.) be independent of map resources (you can produce metal and rares in your city for example) and 2.) have the critical resource production concentrated in just 1 city, so that the loss of any other city is just a tactical set back from which you can recover and not a debilitating hit to your economy.

(in reply to newageofpower)

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RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 5:43:54 AM

KingHalford

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Building new zones is critical to avoiding administrative strain, and the quicker you do it, the better. In my games. providing there is the manpower, I start recruiting colonists from turn 1, and then whenever I need a new city, I've got a large number of colonists ready to migrate in. The vast majority of the cities I'll have at the end game are ones I've colonised myself. Of course, this is dependent upon the planet type: on the harsher planets where manpower is a lot lower, this isn't so viable.

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(in reply to Uemon)

Post #: 7

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 6:05:46 AM

Maerchen

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I played my first forced colonization right now. The high 800+ radiation screamed for colonies to rest the early game infantry for survival reasons.

On turn 126, I now have 38 zones, most of them colonies. Zero admin strain. 1.5k Cr. income on a bad turn. And with the commerce profile I have 4k IP production from private light industry alone.

My conclusion is the same as BATTLEMODEs. Colonize early. Never stop.

_____________________________

The logistics hell this game is IS the fun part! - Maerchen, 2020

The good thing is, we have all the information in the reports. The bad thing is, we have all the information. Maerchen, 2020

Came for SE. Will stay for SE.

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Post #: 8

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 10:39:17 AM

Uemon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KingHalford

Building new zones is critical to avoiding administrative strain, and the quicker you do it, the better. In my games. providing there is the manpower, I start recruiting colonists from turn 1, and then whenever I need a new city, I've got a large number of colonists ready to migrate in. The vast majority of the cities I'll have at the end game are ones I've colonised myself. Of course, this is dependent upon the planet type: on the harsher planets where manpower is a lot lower, this isn't so viable.

If you concentrate industry in your capital you wont have admin strain, because you will have 0 need for gathering any on map resources, everything will be produced there (far superior because source of materials will never disappear). Furthermore if you have more than 0 whats it called, civilization level, the thing that rises in your cities as you build QOL, and you found a new city, when you dump people there via colonists, the thing thats going to happen is, they will just start leaving next turn as there will be no jobs and low civ level. If you want people to stay there you need to build jobs and QOL buildings, which takes time. That city will practically be useless economy wise until it hits at last like 50k - 100k population. If youre swimming in population, sure you can do that, but in most cases early on thats a bad idea, with one notable exception - automated clinics.

And money is a non issue, once you build metal filtration building level 2 or 3 youll be swimming in rare materials which you can sell for thousands of credits every turn, in a way thats actually broken.

< Message edited by Uemon -- 1/20/2021 10:40:01 AM >

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 9

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 1:37:08 PM

Mercutio

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Well, in my game there were only 2 majors. 1 was 5 hexes from my capital. No minor nations remotely close either. Just marauders, indigenous life, etc. The other major is something like 50 hexes away!
I think the QoL thing needs rethought. In an extreme example, let's say we colonize Mars. They shouldn't expect live theater, opera, sports stadiums, etc. Smaller towns also should expect lower amenities and many people would prefer a simpler life. It just seems a new city should have a certain amount of turns before they are looking for amenities. That would give time to build the things needed to get it up and running. QoL should be based on the size of the city, not the national level IMO.

(in reply to Uemon)

Post #: 10

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 1:42:42 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

If you concentrate industry in your capital you wont have admin strain, because you will have 0 need for gathering any on map resources, everything will be produced there (far superior because source of materials will never disappear).

While it is solid to focus your Industry and other resource conversion in the Capitol City, stuff like resource extraction and logistics will have to be outside the city.

Unless we are talking about something like a micro-moon, you will have to have a decent amount of assets outside the city.

(in reply to Uemon)

Post #: 11

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 3:05:49 PM

jimwinsor

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Yeah, I can see one building tall using Metal Soil Filtration, but I assume you'll want conquered cities and their Truck Stations to further conquer the planet and get to 50% VP. Unless like zgrssd says, the planet is very small.

It's interesting that both city spam and building tall both have their adherents in this game!

And yeah, I agree Rare Earths should be made more ... rare.

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RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 4:39:24 PM

AKicebear

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quote:

It's interesting that both city spam and building tall both have their adherents in this game!

I also noticed that in this conversation - it makes me want to try a tall strategy in my next game, just to see how viable it is on a big planet. I typically have used a 12 hex gap (with supply base in between) for laying out new cities early in the game as I expand my reach.

On the topic of AI, I wonder whats to prevent a few AI possibilities - one that builds tall, and one that places cities roughly at the max AP range of the nearest city's supply base.

(in reply to jimwinsor)

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RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 7:44:30 PM

Uemon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

If you concentrate industry in your capital you wont have admin strain, because you will have 0 need for gathering any on map resources, everything will be produced there (far superior because source of materials will never disappear).

While it is solid to focus your Industry and other resource conversion in the Capitol City, stuff like resource extraction and logistics will have to be outside the city.

Unless we are talking about something like a micro-moon, you will have to have a decent amount of assets outside the city.

Everything you can possibly need can be fit within range of the capital city as to not get administrative strain - thats what i was referring to, not saying that you can put LITERALLY everything inside one city hex - you cant, you will need logistics, food (at least early on) and power generation outside, but within allowed limit. Metal and rares you can absolutely concentrate. Water and food are a possibility but it could be tough getting high tech machinery early on.

(in reply to zgrssd)

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RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 7:58:54 PM

Solaristics

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quote:

ORIGINAL: stryc
This moves beyond merely ignoring a discrete game system, it's ignoring a fundamental aspect of a game of this genre. It's not a million miles away from playing Civ against an AI that can't found new cities.

I'm thinking about buying the game but this has me concerned. I'm not interested in multiplayer so I'd like a challenging SP experience (don't care how much the AI cheats to achieve this). Does the player become overwhelmingly dominant by mid-game through expansion and just rolls over all the remaining Majors?

(in reply to stryc)

Post #: 15

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 8:00:37 PM

Uemon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Yeah, I can see one building tall using Metal Soil Filtration, but I assume you'll want conquered cities and their Truck Stations to further conquer the planet and get to 50% VP. Unless like zgrssd says, the planet is very small.

It's interesting that both city spam and building tall both have their adherents in this game!

And yeah, I agree Rare Earths should be made more ... rare.

The only reason i conquer cities is to deny them to major AIs. Most minor's capitals will have between 30k and 60-70k from my experience (i dont tend to play big maps because turn times are killing my will to play this game) which makes them essentially useless for any serious resource generation. Good and efficient buildings start around city level IV-V.

There are a couple of things to consider when you play wide and spread yourself.

First, like i said, you lose production efficiency from in city buildings (which is absolutely the best way to set your economy for mid to late game, have fun when those oil deposits dry out!); and second, which is more important, the amount of resources you need to defend your territory grows with each city. I dont like to leave cities without at least enough battalions (both quality and quantity) to surround and annihilate any spawning rebel stacks or whatever event game might decide to throw at me. There is nothing worse than pushing your primary frontline and then having to collapse it because rebels popped behind and you need to send your armies back to defend your supply lines! So every city that is not contributing double digits percent of resources to my empire, is a drain on my military. I need units on garrison duty, which could be better spent elsewhere! I dont like stationary WW1 like warfare, i focus on mobility and maneuver because annihilating enemy units is infinitely more efficient and impactful than beating them in combat.

Thats why to me having fewer but more important cities (or defense points) is more valuable than spreading myself all over the place.

Also note that population and manpower are extremely important/high priority only very early game, when you are spamming infantry units. As soon as you start switching to tanks and later on to walkers, the demand for recruits will start to go down, and the primary resource your empire will start needing will be whatever you use to fuel your engines (probably oil). Having a powerful metal source means you can build industrial and resource buildings which means plenty of oil to fuel your tanks/walkers!

(in reply to jimwinsor)

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RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 8:08:22 PM

Uemon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Solaristics

quote:

ORIGINAL: stryc
This moves beyond merely ignoring a discrete game system, it's ignoring a fundamental aspect of a game of this genre. It's not a million miles away from playing Civ against an AI that can't found new cities.

I'm thinking about buying the game but this has me concerned. I'm not interested in multiplayer so I'd like a challenging SP experience (don't care how much the AI cheats to achieve this). Does the player become overwhelmingly dominant by mid-game through expansion and just rolls over all the remaining Majors?

The AI cheats in some aspects (and i actually find it infuriating) but it mostly comes down to it being able to spam roads for free (whereas early on you will be debilitated in your ability to do the same by the fact that your roads cost industrial capacity that you desperately need to build - more industry). So early on AI will spread like a plague all over the map, whereas you cant. My feelings on this go back and forth, from making me not want to play this game at all, to like ignoring it because the rest of the game is BRILLIANT.

As for SP challenge, let me put it like this:

Your first couple of games, when you have no clue what youre doing, you will absolutely be amazing by the AI, it will trash you around and just roflstomp you.

However once you figure out how to optimize your development (which is what i do with my capital development focus) you will start to outtech the AI within 20 turns, and out produce them within 50 turns (even if they expand like insane and conquer many cities). From that point on, AI doesnt really have any chance because this game simulates the power of different unit types quire realistically and while AI will have 100s of infantry units and some tanks, once you have more powerful economy and you start spamming those heavily armored tanks, AI will have 0 chance.

< Message edited by Uemon -- 1/20/2021 8:09:15 PM >

(in reply to Solaristics)

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RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 8:54:09 PM

AgentFransis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uemon

Everything you can possibly need can be fit within range of the capital city as to not get administrative strain - thats what i was referring to, not saying that you can put LITERALLY everything inside one city hex - you cant, you will need logistics, food (at least early on) and power generation outside, but within allowed limit. Metal and rares you can absolutely concentrate. Water and food are a possibility but it could be tough getting high tech machinery early on.

Everything you can possibly need... except logistics assets you need to get anywhere. Unless you're playing a tiny or densely populated map you need to plop down colonies to support distant truck and supply stations or have your admin efficiency drop off a cliff.

(in reply to Uemon)

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RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 10:12:14 PM

Uemon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AgentFransis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Uemon

Everything you can possibly need can be fit within range of the capital city as to not get administrative strain - thats what i was referring to, not saying that you can put LITERALLY everything inside one city hex - you cant, you will need logistics, food (at least early on) and power generation outside, but within allowed limit. Metal and rares you can absolutely concentrate. Water and food are a possibility but it could be tough getting high tech machinery early on.

Everything you can possibly need... except logistics assets you need to get anywhere. Unless you're playing a tiny or densely populated map you need to plop down colonies to support distant truck and supply stations or have your admin efficiency drop off a cliff.

I dont have to do that? But i think im playing with the old logistics system.

Edit: even with the new logistics system you dont need to put down any logistics assets anywhere, as long as you dont fork your roads.

Also you should try railroads.

< Message edited by Uemon -- 1/20/2021 10:14:20 PM >

(in reply to AgentFransis)

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RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 10:23:08 PM

AgentFransis

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Uhm, what? Trucks have a range of 10-15 tiles. I've had roads 50 tiles long and more I needed to move an army on.

Rail needs at least a railhead at the other end to fully propagate. Unless you mean to just rely on the 10% rail capacity propagated to uncapped rail branches. This could work I suppose if you built a ****load of rail stations and could afford to drop railroads everywhere.

(in reply to Uemon)

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RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 10:40:43 PM

Uemon

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https://imgur.com/bxLXbqr

I have units 20 tiles away from the nearest logistics asset (city) and its works just fine (using the old system in this particular game) - all you gotta do is extend roads *shrugs*.

Edit: this forum man how do i post a screenshot >.<

Edit 2: heres another one https://imgur.com/4tBHqlp

I conquered all of that with 0 logistics assets outside of my capital range. I have 100s of walkers and infantry and im fighting on basically all fronts.

< Message edited by Uemon -- 1/20/2021 11:08:20 PM >

(in reply to AgentFransis)

Post #: 21

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/20/2021 10:53:21 PM

stryc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Solaristics

quote:

ORIGINAL: stryc
This moves beyond merely ignoring a discrete game system, it's ignoring a fundamental aspect of a game of this genre. It's not a million miles away from playing Civ against an AI that can't found new cities.

I'm thinking about buying the game but this has me concerned. I'm not interested in multiplayer so I'd like a challenging SP experience (don't care how much the AI cheats to achieve this). Does the player become overwhelmingly dominant by mid-game through expansion and just rolls over all the remaining Majors?

It's still worth getting but be aware that the SP experience is somewhat hobbled by an AI that doesn't know how to play large portions of the game (or just flat out ignore them entirely).

(in reply to Solaristics)

Post #: 22

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/21/2021 12:57:59 AM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uemon

https://imgur.com/bxLXbqr

I have units 20 tiles away from the nearest logistics asset (city) and its works just fine (using the old system in this particular game) - all you gotta do is extend roads *shrugs*.

Edit: this forum man how do i post a screenshot >.<

Edit 2: heres another one https://imgur.com/4tBHqlp

I conquered all of that with 0 logistics assets outside of my capital range. I have 100s of walkers and infantry and im fighting on basically all fronts.

20 is about as far as you can push it. That is a Truck stops range + operational logistics for the units themself.
Maybe 25 with sealed roads.

But again: We are not talking about a mini-sizte moon here. There are planets that are a order of magnitude bigger then 20 hexes.
Planets so big, they ran into a bug wich limited how far away from the SHQ you can build railway and roads.

(in reply to Uemon)

Post #: 23

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/21/2021 1:01:45 AM

Uemon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: Uemon

https://imgur.com/bxLXbqr

I have units 20 tiles away from the nearest logistics asset (city) and its works just fine (using the old system in this particular game) - all you gotta do is extend roads *shrugs*.

Edit: this forum man how do i post a screenshot >.<

Edit 2: heres another one https://imgur.com/4tBHqlp

I conquered all of that with 0 logistics assets outside of my capital range. I have 100s of walkers and infantry and im fighting on basically all fronts.

20 is about as far as you can push it. That is a Truck stops range + operational logistics for the units themself.
Maybe 25 with sealed roads.

But again: We are not talking about a mini-sizte moon here. There are planets that are a order of magnitude bigger then 20 hexes.
Planets so big, they ran into a bug wich limited how far away from the SHQ you can build railway and roads.

Then i dont know, personally i dont think i could play such planets because 100 turns in, it wouldnt be manageable any more.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 24

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/22/2021 5:00:02 AM

KingHalford

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I think I must be playing a different game to some of you guys? You never need to build logistics assets?

Fair enough... be interested to know what planet/difficulty settings you're using.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Uemon)

Post #: 25

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/22/2021 10:54:16 AM

Uemon

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-World size small (anything bigger turn times become way too long)
-I mostly play with simple logistics (although i did a couple of full late games conquests with new system too)
-Difficulty level i used to play second or third level, but i switched to easy now because not having that metal deposit pisses me off (way too debilitating for my taste).

Note that i am building logistics buildings, only i am doing it within city limit without ever getting admin strain. I dont know what everyone else is talking about, i never had any problems with that, you have screenshots in a post above.

(in reply to KingHalford)

Post #: 26

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/22/2021 11:31:29 AM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uemon

-World size small (anything bigger turn times become way too long)
-I mostly play with simple logistics (although i did a couple of full late games conquests with new system too)
-Difficulty level i used to play second or third level, but i switched to easy now because not having that metal deposit pisses me off (way too debilitating for my taste).

Of course small makes it possible to never colonize. If you asume a 6 hex exclusion zone around existing cities, there often is no room to colonize. Nevermind the Atmosphere or population for it.

Easy logistics has nothing to do with any "new System". Easy logistics uses the same Pull point System. It is just that all sources for Truck and Railpoints - as well as their ranges - are doubeled (I am unsure if it applies to Airbirdges). As it turns out, that is all that is needed to make it easier.

As for metal shortages:
- Look for Gas Powered Small arms for infantry. Their ammo consumption is a lot lower, saving metal. Lower Ammo consumption is kinda their only use in the game right now, but damn they do that one good!
- avoid airforces or artillery
- get composite armor for vehicles. Being able to use the relatively more Abundant "Rare Metals" is a bit of a game changer on that front

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 1/22/2021 11:32:42 AM >

(in reply to Uemon)

Post #: 27

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/22/2021 12:41:10 PM

Uemon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Of course small makes it possible to never colonize. If you asume a 6 hex exclusion zone around existing cities, there often is no room to colonize. Nevermind the Atmosphere or population for it.

Whaaaaaa? Have you ever played small world? You can put down i wanna say 100 cities easily on a small map... I usually roll around 20 zones in pre war world generation, and that usually leaves around half of the map as wild life area. Also entirely incorrect on population, again, look at one of the screenshots, my capital has 300.000+ pop, and several other cities are 200k (and thats without automated clinics). It literally comes down to proper QOL management and early independent settlement snatching (with some careful strategem play here and there).

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
Easy logistics has nothing to do with any "new System". Easy logistics uses the same Pull point System. It is just that all sources for Truck and Railpoints - as well as their ranges - are doubeled (I am unsure if it applies to Airbirdges). As it turns out, that is all that is needed to make it easier.

Are you sure about that? Because i was under the impression that simple logistics uses a different pull, one that the old system had, where you can fork roads as much as you want, whereas if you fork roads too much with the new system, it will murder your ability to supply units far away.

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 28

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/22/2021 12:42:56 PM

Uemon

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

As for metal shortages:
- Look for Gas Powered Small arms for infantry. Their ammo consumption is a lot lower, saving metal. Lower Ammo consumption is kinda their only use in the game right now, but damn they do that one good!
- avoid airforces or artillery
- get composite armor for vehicles. Being able to use the relatively more Abundant "Rare Metals" is a bit of a game changer on that front

Thats not the issue; i can deal with no metal deposit just fine. The problem is, there is no option to disable free metal deposit for AI, and with how much AI cheats already, them having free metal, when i dont, just means they explode in exponential expansion and that makes the game extremely unfair and makes me not wanna play it. I hate it when AI obviously and horribly cheats in game.

< Message edited by Uemon -- 1/22/2021 12:43:23 PM >

(in reply to zgrssd)

Post #: 29

RE: Major AIs don't create new zones? - 1/22/2021 12:47:43 PM

zgrssd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uemon

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

As for metal shortages:
- Look for Gas Powered Small arms for infantry. Their ammo consumption is a lot lower, saving metal. Lower Ammo consumption is kinda their only use in the game right now, but damn they do that one good!
- avoid airforces or artillery
- get composite armor for vehicles. Being able to use the relatively more Abundant "Rare Metals" is a bit of a game changer on that front

Thats not the issue; i can deal with no metal deposit just fine. The problem is, there is no option to disable free metal deposit for AI, and with how much AI cheats already, them having free metal, when i dont, just means they explode in exponential expansion and that makes the game extremely unfair and makes me not wanna play it. I hate it when AI obviously and horribly cheats in game.

The free metal deposit is a rule for all majors, not for the AI majors.
If you do not have one, that is a bug.

(in reply to Uemon)

Post #: 30

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire >> Major AIs don't create new zones?

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Slitherine

Major AIs don't create new zones?