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Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/19/2021 12:42:33 PM

mmoore327

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Joined: 6/21/2008
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Just picked up game over Christmas and am still going through basic tutorials while I do first turn setup but I have a basic question I can't find an answer for...

If I setup a TF to not refuel, can I assume it will refuel when it returns to it's home port (i.e. I know that means it won't refuel at destination port, but will it still refuel when it returns to home port).

If not, do you have to manually select refuel and use a full turn waiting for it to refuel, or can you select both refuel and load cargo, and setup a new destination all in one turn.

Thanks in advance - looking forward to getting into this game...

Post #: 1

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/19/2021 12:58:46 PM

btd64

Posts: 9973
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From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mmoore327

Just picked up game over Christmas and am still going through basic tutorials while I do first turn setup but I have a basic question I can't find an answer for...

If I setup a TF to not refuel, can I assume it will refuel when it returns to it's home port (i.e. I know that means it won't refuel at destination port, but will it still refuel when it returns to home port).

If not, do you have to manually select refuel and use a full turn waiting for it to refuel, or can you select both refuel and load cargo, and setup a new destination all in one turn.

Thanks in advance - looking forward to getting into this game...

When the TF is back at port, just hit the refuel button and the TF will fuel up with only the limitations of the port stopping you. Then hit the load supplies button....GP

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(in reply to mmoore327)

Post #: 2

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/19/2021 1:45:09 PM

RangerJoe

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I do believe that you will have to set the TF to "Full Refuel" to completely load up with fuel before you refuel it. I have seen TFs with the setting to not refuel that did not refuel when I attempted to refuel it.

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Post #: 3

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/19/2021 1:49:46 PM

RhinoDad

Posts: 221
Joined: 12/22/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmoore327

Just picked up game over Christmas and am still going through basic tutorials while I do first turn setup but I have a basic question I can't find an answer for...

If I setup a TF to not refuel, can I assume it will refuel when it returns to it's home port (i.e. I know that means it won't refuel at destination port, but will it still refuel when it returns to home port).

If not, do you have to manually select refuel and use a full turn waiting for it to refuel, or can you select both refuel and load cargo, and setup a new destination all in one turn.

Thanks in advance - looking forward to getting into this game...

When the TF is back at port, just hit the refuel button and the TF will fuel up with only the limitations of the port stopping you. Then hit the load supplies button....GP

Or you can set for Do not refuel when sending TF outbound then changing it back to Refuel somewhere on the way back. Then, at least, a Human Controlled task force will automatically refuel when it arrives in port and be available and fueled when your turn starts.

Btd64�s way is probably easier though, however, I am not positive if the operation points, for refueling, in the way I suggested hit the turn it arrived in port or count against the new turn you are playing. If it counts against the new turn then it is moot. If it counts against the turn TF arrives then you will get more loaded in the first turn setting convoy orders.

For a given port operation points may not be much of a limiting factor.

Not the expert but that is anecdotally what I have observed.

Edited:
I saw RangerJoe slipped in whilst I was typing. He is very knowledgeable in the game both with mechanics and history and would listen to any knowledge he puts out.

< Message edited by RhinoDad -- 1/19/2021 1:55:46 PM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/19/2021 2:50:27 PM

RangerJoe

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The TF would refuel the turn that it arrives at the port as long as it has the operations points.

Alfred is the real expert for the game. I am mistaken sometimes . . .

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Post #: 5

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/19/2021 4:27:17 PM

BBfanboy

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A CS convoy type TF set to "Do not refuel" will not refuel at destination but will refuel when it returns to port. It is built into the routine for the AI handling CS convoys.

But human controlled convoys respond to the settings that you have made. If you say "Do not refuel", it will not refuel anywhere, including home port. I routinely set my outgoing TFs to "minimal refuel" in case they need a small amount of fuel somewhere to complete their trip. If the trip will obviously require more fuel than it has, the range information will turn red and I just set a waypoint at a port along the way and set the waypoint to "minimum refuel" (which gives just enough fuel to get to destination and back to home port).

I monitor TFs approaching the home ports and when they are within a day of arrival I change their fueling orders to "Full Refuel". At the same time, I separate out any ships with damage into another TF to go to the port with the "Auto Disband" setting to start repairs ASAP. Sometimes I miss a TF and it arrives in port with "Minimum Refuel" still set. In these cases they never refuel automatically beyond the minimal amount and if I use the "Replenish at Sea" (undocked) or "Replenish in Port" (docked) button it will still only load the minimal amount. I have to change it to "Full Refuel" to tank up.

Ships that are disbanded in port but not pierside repair don't refuel while their crews repair the damage, but I am not sure if they refuel automatically when I put them back in the TF (I always just refuel them while disbanded with the Replenish text). Ships that are set to pierside repair or repair shipyard will always fully replenish when they finish their repair. This includes upgrades and conversions.

Sometimes at SFO, I have Liberty ships loading supply and another ship is produced and Alameda next door. I form a TF with the new ship and set it to join the TF in SFO. The new ship joins but does not replenish the fuel it used to get to SFO, even though the TF is set to "Full Refuel". It doesn't really matter in these long ranged ships and the short distance the new ship traveled, but if you are doing that with a 1500 nm SC joining other SCs at a port 1200 miles away you might want to get it refueled manually.

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Post #: 6

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/19/2021 4:43:50 PM

mmoore327

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Thanks everyone for the quick replies... so much to learn with this game...

(in reply to mmoore327)

Post #: 7

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/19/2021 5:14:04 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mmoore327

Thanks everyone for the quick replies... so much to learn with this game...

This game has so many nuances that you can still be learning things ten years from now . . .

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
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Post #: 8

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/19/2021 5:23:14 PM

RhinoDad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmoore327

Thanks everyone for the quick replies... so much to learn with this game...

This game has so many nuances that you can still be learning things ten years from now . . .

Hear Hear

And the game is well worth the effort and time, especially when starting out.

< Message edited by RhinoDad -- 1/19/2021 5:31:00 PM >

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 9

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/19/2021 5:27:32 PM

btd64

Posts: 9973
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From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmoore327

Thanks everyone for the quick replies... so much to learn with this game...

This game has so many nuances that you can still be learning things ten years from now . . .

Isn't that the truth....GP

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Post #: 10

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/19/2021 5:36:02 PM

RangerJoe

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It also helps to go through not just the AARs but the links provided in these:

links and info for new players

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4726264

FAQ / Info for Newb's

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2260137

Useful Info for Beginners

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2576157

Tender and Support/Auxillary Ship Guide

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2920431

Then an excellent AAR by Mike Solli on the Japanese side of things:

Once Again into the Breach - Mike (J) vs. tc464 (A)

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2959613&mpage=1&key=

That last one is also useful for Allied players to read as it does give insights into the strengths and foibles* of the Japanese side.

Foible: 2) a minor flaw or shortcoming in character or behavior : weakness
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/foible

_____________________________

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(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 11

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/20/2021 11:17:28 AM

Trugrit

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I thought I would add some more documentation on refueling in the game.

For new players Don Bowen was the games naval team programmer.

Don Bowen post #465:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1647369

The auto-refueling has been tempered a bit. Any TF underway that does not have sufficient total endurance to
complete it's mission will CONSIDER refueling each turn (same as WITP). A check for percentage of total fuel
has been put in to prevent every-day topping off. This means that the TF will refuel the short ranged ships every
few days instead of every day.

Don Bowen post #24:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2263772

There are two issues here.

First, the decision to have MANUAL refueling be fully refuel was by design.
The thought was that a player that ordered refueling wanted to fill'er up. Refuel options were only for automatic refueling,
over which the player used to have no control other than Do Not Refuel. After some discussion, this has been changed (for next Patch).
Manual refueling will obey the TF refuel option - the player is responsible for setting it correctly.

Second, there was an issue in the minimal/tactical refuel calculations. Long story short, the calculations were done at TF level using TF endurance
and TF endurance required. A refuel factor was generated and applied to refueling for all ships in the TF. Neat and simple, and did not work.
The TF endurance already reflected the lowest endurance ship in the TF so every ship ended up getting refueled based on a factor generated
from the lowest endurance ship. And, since the lowest endurance ship's endurance was frequently levels of magnitude below average TF endurance,
refueling factors approached (or reached) 100% refueling. Calculations have been reworked to be ship-by-ship instead of TF endurance based.

Don Bowen post #399:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2207994

I assume SOL means Slightly Out of Luck?

Tankers can not refuel from their fuel cargo at sea. Don't have the fittings.

All ships are allowed to refuel other ships underway from their own bunkers - which is non-historical
but the ability could not be removed for playability reasons.

Don Bowen post #4:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=2277883

Having a slow TF follow a fast TF will ALWAYS cause the leading TF to slow down until the
following TF gets within the prescribed follow distance.

To have a replenishment TF rendezvous with a fast carrier TF you may wish
to use either waypoint/refuel or meet/refuel.

If you want to set up an at-sea gas station, move the replenishment TF to some convenient at-sea hex and select remain on station.
Then route the carrier TF to that location in some way. Either manually with remain on station and do the fueling manually
or use waypoints with the refuel option, Which ever works best.

You can also use the meet/refuel option for a single refueling. I think this may also cause slowing of the carrier TF to accomplish the meet.
Meeting is quite complex and how it is handled depends on which TF is closer to the destination of the "met" TF.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 12

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/20/2021 11:32:31 AM

GetAssista

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If only someone switch the initial flag for a newly created TF to "do not refuel", everything fuel related will be completely perfect at last

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Post #: 13

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 2:24:59 AM

bradfordkay

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I just ran into one of those rare occurrences that just ticks you off.

I had a small cargo TF (3 xAKL & 1 AM) headed from Townsville to Gove which happened to end a turn in the same hex as a much larger cargo TF (15 xAK & 2 AM)returning to Sydney from Darwin. The larger TF had been set to Do Not Refuel as it had plenty of fuel for the round trip. The smaller one was also set the same as if barely had enough fuel for its round trip but Gove has no fuel at this time. For some bloody reason the larger TF decided to refuel from the smaller one, giving it 173 hexes worth of fuel for a trip that has only 36 hexes remaining.

The issue is that it left the smaller TF with only 14 hexes worth of fuel for a trip that has 45 hexes remaining. So now the resupply of Gove is delayed while that TF gets diverted back to Cooktown to refill its bunkers.

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Post #: 14

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 2:29:11 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I just ran into one of those rare occurrences that just ticks you off.

I had a small cargo TF (3 xAKL & 1 AM) headed from Townsville to Gove which happened to end a turn in the same hex as a much larger cargo TF (15 xAK & 2 AM)returning to Sydney from Darwin. The larger TF had been set to Do Not Refuel as it had plenty of fuel for the round trip. The smaller one was also set the same as if barely had enough fuel for its round trip but Gove has no fuel at this time. For some bloody reason the larger TF decided to refuel from the smaller one, giving it 173 hexes worth of fuel for a trip that has only 36 hexes remaining.

The issue is that it left the smaller TF with only 14 hexes worth of fuel for a trip that has 45 hexes remaining. So now the resupply of Gove is delayed while that TF gets diverted back to Cooktown to refill its bunkers.

If the smaller TF had an AO, they virtually always refuel other ships they meet at sea. Can't see why refueling from their own bunkers would happen.

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Post #: 15

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 2:41:27 AM

bradfordkay

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The smaller TF had only the ships I listed. I have seen this happen once or twice over the years of playing this game, which is why I check the TF list for ones low on fuel nearly every turn (as well as the fact that subs set with patrol zones will often push past the "bingo fuel" point.

I am playing the last "official" patch, not the beta one, if that makes any difference. I do not expect any fixes for this - just wanted to give a "heads up" to my fellow players.

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fair winds,
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Post #: 16

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 7:38:12 AM

Chris21wen

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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: mmoore327

Thanks everyone for the quick replies... so much to learn with this game...

This game has so many nuances that you can still be learning things ten years from now . . .

Only ten! Your a quick learner

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 17

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 7:42:22 AM

Chris21wen

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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I just ran into one of those rare occurrences that just ticks you off.

I had a small cargo TF (3 xAKL & 1 AM) headed from Townsville to Gove which happened to end a turn in the same hex as a much larger cargo TF (15 xAK & 2 AM)returning to Sydney from Darwin. The larger TF had been set to Do Not Refuel as it had plenty of fuel for the round trip. The smaller one was also set the same as if barely had enough fuel for its round trip but Gove has no fuel at this time. For some bloody reason the larger TF decided to refuel from the smaller one, giving it 173 hexes worth of fuel for a trip that has only 36 hexes remaining.

The issue is that it left the smaller TF with only 14 hexes worth of fuel for a trip that has 45 hexes remaining. So now the resupply of Gove is delayed while that TF gets diverted back to Cooktown to refill its bunkers.

I tend to use tactical refuel for all none combat TF.

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 18

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 6:51:02 PM

bradfordkay

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At this time in my game it is still difficult to get convoys safely in and out of Darwin, so I prefer to limit the number of tankers I risk. The fuel in Darwin is best reserved for the subs I have operating out of there.

The problem is actually with the extremely short endurance of the Australian escorts. This is causing the TFs on the Sydney-Darwin run to refuel them almost every day. My Gove resupply convoy just happened to end up sharing an at sea hex with the Sydney/Darwin TF on a day that it decided to refuel at sea.

I am sending some longer range US subchasers to Sydney to see if that can't ameliorate the problem.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 19

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 7:02:29 PM

RangerJoe

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Why Sydney to Darwin? How about Normanton to Darwin?

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Post #: 20

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 7:15:00 PM

bradfordkay

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Sydney is the one port in Australia with a reasonable supply of fuel - large enough that a convoy of fifteen or more xAK cargo ships won't nearly drain it (not to mention well over a million tons of supply). I suppose that if I had a huge number of ships disbanded in Normanton then fuel and supply would be transported there via RR/road (with a bit of loss due to the long trip from Brisbane/Sydney) but my needs for shipping elsewhere preclude the static use of shipping to make that happen.

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 1/21/2021 7:17:51 PM >

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 21

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 7:17:48 PM

RangerJoe

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You don't need to have static ships there. The port will demand 1k of fuel per level plus what is needed to refuel ships that are operating from there. Alfred posted on this recently.

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Post #: 22

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 7:28:48 PM

bradfordkay

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I prefer keeping my larger cargo ships at major supply hubs so I can run fewer (large) convoys to the ports large enough to handle them. Perhaps I should rebase the Gove resupply TF to Normanton rather than run it from Townsville. Right now in that area I only have Gove, Merauke and Horn Island that require the xAKLs and smaller xAKs. Broome, Derby and Port Hedland are resupplied from Perth, of course.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 23

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 7:39:53 PM

RangerJoe

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You can run CS convoys from Normanton to Darwin hauling supplies and fuel in, then resources on the return leg. That is within range of those xAKLs and AMs.

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Post #: 24

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 7:59:52 PM

bradfordkay

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I could, but I am not a big fan of CS convoys. I don't mind the extra work of handling all resupply efforts manually. This allows me to keep a closer eye on ship damage as well as possible upgrades. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 25

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 8:12:47 PM

Randy Stead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I could, but I am not a big fan of CS convoys. I don't mind the extra work of handling all resupply efforts manually. This allows me to keep a closer eye on ship damage as well as possible upgrades. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

That is something I should perhaps consider in my current Guadalcanal scenario. I've not yet used a CS convoy in any of my operations. The last supply convoy I sent to Port Milne had two ships which were too big to unload simultaneously. I had to do the Dock Dance to unload. The Dock Dance is like the Safety Dance, but more likely to have someone shoot their eye out, kid.

(in reply to bradfordkay)

Post #: 26

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 8:35:42 PM

Sardaukar

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When playing Grand Campaign, CS convoys are useful.

Like running fuel from Abadan to Karachi constantly to keep Indian economy up.

Otherwise, it is often better to "take the big dump once than many small dumps", as in toilet.

I like to run my supplies manually except above.

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Post #: 27

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 9:16:57 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

When playing Grand Campaign, CS convoys are useful.

Like running fuel from Abadan to Karachi constantly to keep Indian economy up.

Otherwise, it is often better to "take the big dump once than many small dumps", as in toilet.

I like to run my supplies manually except above.

Actually, I do believe that it is better to take many smaller dumps than one big one as that can cause problems. Maybe Cap Mandrake can enlighten us on that.

But one large CS Convoy that is well protected is better than many small convoys without enough protection. A belt and braces (suspenders to the Americans) is better than just one or none - unless she is pretty and they fall off . . .

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(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 28

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 9:37:22 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

I could, but I am not a big fan of CS convoys. I don't mind the extra work of handling all resupply efforts manually. This allows me to keep a closer eye on ship damage as well as possible upgrades. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

That is something I should perhaps consider in my current Guadalcanal scenario. I've not yet used a CS convoy in any of my operations. The last supply convoy I sent to Port Milne had two ships which were too big to unload simultaneously. I had to do the Dock Dance to unload. The Dock Dance is like the Safety Dance, but more likely to have someone shoot their eye out, kid.

So is Port Milne halfway between Port Moresby and Milne Bay? No wonder you had trouble unloading!

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Post #: 29

RE: Basic question on TF Refueling - 1/21/2021 10:42:47 PM

Sardaukar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

When playing Grand Campaign, CS convoys are useful.

Like running fuel from Abadan to Karachi constantly to keep Indian economy up.

Otherwise, it is often better to "take the big dump once than many small dumps", as in toilet.

I like to run my supplies manually except above.

Actually, I do believe that it is better to take many smaller dumps than one big one as that can cause problems. Maybe Cap Mandrake can enlighten us on that.

But one large CS Convoy that is well protected is better than many small convoys without enough protection. A belt and braces (suspenders to the Americans) is better than just one or none - unless she is pretty and they fall off . . .

Depends if cargo is liquid or solid...

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"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 30