Paul Vebber
Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
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Like SPWW2 kept tanks pretty much as they werein SP1, SP:WaW kept infantry pretty much as they were. You raise some interesting philospical points about infantry combat. Should it be based on pure firepower? ie X amoutn bullets always casue Y amount of suppression? We took a more random tack where sometimes it takes a few shots to suppress an enemy, other times it takes a lot. And even when you think he's suppresed, he may still surprise you. Some gamers do like a "sure thing" to plan on, others like a more "chaotic" battlefield.
In Combat Leader it will be tied more to morale, as state changes like ready - pinned - retreated will be more morale and leader ship dependant and less suppression dependant.
If in poor cover SP:WaW troops typically retreat after taking a couple of casualties, but if "in cover" or entrenched, they will stick it out longer. I think each country had its doctrine, but forcing one countries on everybody detracts form the others strengths. German firepower was build around the MG34/42 and they were feared weapons beyond strictly a suppression instrument. Similar the others, but it does give SPWW2 a distinctive feel.
I have been playing it a little lately and am frankly surprised by how bloody it can be! You seem to be "one casultied to death" as you were in pre-5.3 SP:WaW were you seem to often lose 1 dead regardless of what terrain you are in, particularly if moving. Again philosphical difference, some see movement as the critical factor in exposure regardless of terain, others that in good cover you move in small bounds and quickly get out of site making it difficult to direct effective fire.
Interesting to put armor in a support role. Indeed that is true in many occasions, but not always the case. THe big reason I fought so hard to get the "detail" in teh armor system was becasue there were situations that the "old way" just didn;t handle well.
Take a long barel PzIIIj against a t-34 - if given a shot 30 degrees to the flank say, in SP:ww2 you only get a penetration about 20% of teh time - in 115 shots I only got one kill. The "detail" allows the geometry to be better represened in SP:WaW such a shot results in a kill over 90% of the time, a proportion backed up by Lorrin Bird and Robert Livingston's new WW2 Ballistics book. So its not just a matter of "averaging out" results over large battles, but things having appropriate vulnerabilities. Using teh original system and data, many things are substanially under or over vulnerable, like that T-34. Matildas vs IIIh APCR is another strange situation with 40 hits in SPWW2 not doing any damage at 500m while about 3/4 of front hull hits are kills in SPWaW, born out by 90+mm pen for 50L42 APCR at 500m and only 70-80mm armor (though sloped well in places).
These are not the sort of discrepencies that simply resolve themselves over teh cours of a big battle, but are fundamental problems in teh simpler sytem. THat is not to say SP:WaW is perfect! We doing a substantial overhaul of teh whole system to add more armor locations, differenctiate between more types of rounds and armor (AP vs Face hardened armor is a totally different animal than Capped AP vs Cast armor...) We currently deal with none of that either, but I think to dismissing it to "evens out in the wash" is poor comfort to those PZIIH drivers who should shred Matildas inside 600m or so...especially with the ample APCR they are given in SPWW2.
Mobility is only good if you can use it! Hit chances and special opfire make such "end runs" very iffy if you defend your flanks. DOn;t defend your flanks well, or lose a key position and you can be a long way quick. I think an SP:WaW turn typically represents a little more time that is wher you tend to get more movement and fire in a turn - 2-4 minutes or so wil isn't SP:WW2 more like 1-2?
Artillery is the part of SP:WaW i'm least happy with, the whole SP methodology is really in need of overhaul. The whole issue of "call for fire" supprt as opposed to pre-planned fire really needs to be protrayed better in both games. THe restricitons on who could direct what guns and the need for spotting is really glossed over. We hope to beeter in Combat Leader. The rare of fire is high and ammo loads for mortas tend to be less becasue humping even the rounds we give a mortar would be dificult. 7 guys carrying 2 mortars and 120 rounds? I even blush at our 10 guys with 2 mortars and 80 rounds...but with the longer time frame and higher rate of fire they do go dry fast!
I think both games have their strengths and limitations, and there is plenty of room for improvement!
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