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Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 7:34:47 AM

ITAKLinus

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From: Italy
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Hello everyone,

I recently started to play the allies. PBEM. Mid-march 1944.

Now, I have always played the japanese side and never the Allies beyond december 1941 and I just realised I don't grasp the entire squad replacements/pool mechanism.

Mostly, three things:

A) What do I do with all the old squads in pool? Is there any possible way for them to upgrade to the new type?
B) If point A) is valid (they somehow do upgrade), how? And at what rate?
C) Why do I have a "produced this month" for squads I shouldn't produce at all since ages? F.ex. I produced 10 KNIL Rifle Squad in the first 16 turns of March 1944. Problem being that the production should have stopped in... June 1942!

Note: I have inherited this game from my former opponent and I started playing the allied side. Given the huge number of units destroyed, I made massive purchases of those units (something like over 350 LCUs). Now I start to think I have messed up everything with those recalls of destroyed units.

Example. I do have in pool 968 USMC Rifle Squad 43. Production is obviously for the 44 version of them.
Still, I have listed "39" as produced this month (so in the first 16 turns of March 44).
Moreover, given that I have such a big amount of squads in pool, is there any possible way to have those guys upgraded to the 44 version or not?

It's a crucial element I am not grasping. If it's not possible to upgrade them, I'll use the 2nd USMC Div as a forlorn hope somewhere so that it will "process" all those 968 squads. On the other hand, if the upgrade is possible, I won't throw away those poor soldiers of the 2nd division.

Another example. I have actually 0 pool of the USA Rifle Sqaud 44. Zero. Nada de nada. Still, under "used so far" I have over 3.000 squads, something bizarre given the production of 80 per-month from Dec-1943.

Sorry again for the silly questions. I've just started this match (well, I played the other side until a 01/01/44 autovictory) and I'm lost with the allies pool/replacements tricks. Completely. Ask me about japanese minutiae and I'm happy to answer without even looking at the game, but with the allies... Yeah, I guess you got the picture

< Message edited by ITAKLinus -- 1/25/2021 7:41:08 AM >

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Francesco

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RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 9:13:09 AM

Alfred

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A bit more info required for a really detailed answer. However the short answer should suffice.

(a) obsolete squads already in the pools will start to auto upgrade to the new squad standards 6 months after the old production ceased.

(b) the auto upgrade is not done in a single hit. The rate is not disclosed.

(c) you really need to provide more information here. For example they may not have really been produced but are merely squads which were sent to the pool by a unit which upgraded its TOE and its devices simultaneously. In some cases they might have come in from a special convoy.

On map units which upgrade their old squads send the 9old squads back to the pool. These may auto upgrade to the newer squad a day or so after arriving in the pool.

Very important to understand that old non squad devices in the pools do not upgrade to the newer non squad device. Your British 18 pounder artillery in the pools will never auto upgrade to the 25 pounder.

Japan has the luxury of just producing the required devices at will. All that is required is having the requisite industrial inputs (armament points, vehicle points etc) and the availability date being met. The Allied player is dependent on their set production runs augmented by occasional batches provided by special convoys.

Alfred

(in reply to ITAKLinus)

Post #: 2

RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 10:29:32 AM

ITAKLinus

Posts: 630
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

A bit more info required for a really detailed answer. However the short answer should suffice.

(a) obsolete squads already in the pools will start to auto upgrade to the new squad standards 6 months after the old production ceased.

(b) the auto upgrade is not done in a single hit. The rate is not disclosed.

(c) you really need to provide more information here. For example they may not have really been produced but are merely squads which were sent to the pool by a unit which upgraded its TOE and its devices simultaneously. In some cases they might have come in from a special convoy.

On map units which upgrade their old squads send the 9old squads back to the pool. These may auto upgrade to the newer squad a day or so after arriving in the pool.

Very important to understand that old non squad devices in the pools do not upgrade to the newer non squad device. Your British 18 pounder artillery in the pools will never auto upgrade to the 25 pounder.

Japan has the luxury of just producing the required devices at will. All that is required is having the requisite industrial inputs (armament points, vehicle points etc) and the availability date being met. The Allied player is dependent on their set production runs augmented by occasional batches provided by special convoys.

Alfred

Thank you very much Alfred, I really hoped you would have jumped in the thread!

Your explanation is perfectly clear, now I understand (or at least have hope to) the entire situation regarding allied squads. I couldn't figure out the 6-months-rule regarding the pool upgrade. That was the missing piece!

Still, regarding point C), something is not really clear to my tired brain.

I make you the example of my brave Dutch guys (there are way more examples around).

As you can see from the picture below, I have zero Dutch units on map. Zero have withdrawn since I play from 01/JAN/1944. Now, why does my system keep producing for example the KNIL Militia Squad? And at a rate higher than it should be even when these squads are on actual production.

I checked in Aden where I have gathered the remnants of the British/Indian armies (yeah, India is in Japanese hands...) and I cannot find a single LCU using the KNIL Militia Squads (I thought they might be somehow used by some other nation, as bizarre as it might be).

So, I wonder, who used up those squads? And why have they been produced? I exclude convoys since I checked them. I cannot say that there hasn't been some random unit upgrading and sending them in the pool, but it's still quite bizarre since: I) there are no dutch units around since 1942; II) in the previous month, February 1944, I produced 14 of these squads as well; III) if there is a production and the pool is zero, it means they've gone somewhere.

I have some similar situations with other squads around the map.

Also, I have met the very same issue with AFVs (haven't checked the guns, though): for example, I have produced this month 14 75mm GMC Halftracks and their production should have ended in Dec-42. During the current month, March 1944, I received no reinforcements with these devices in the TOE. I had zero withdrawn LCUs either: I just checked the withdrawals list from the entire month of March and not a single LCU has them in the TOE. So, what am I missing? These 75mm GMC Halftracks are not a big deal, but they highlight the fact that I am not understanding the system.
EDIT: I am still in the process of checking whether there has been some upgrade I haven't noticed.

Last, but not least... If I have understood correctly, and I might be very well wrong, TOE upgrades of squads are sequential, meaning that I cannot jump straight from USA Rifle Squad to USA Rifle Squad 44.
However, I have the mighty 31st Infantry Division from the US Army which has just arrived in the USA. My good boys are equipped with the US Rifle Squad (0 in pool, production ended in July '42) and should upgrade to the US Rifle Squad 42. Here the tricky part as you have already understood: 0 pool of US Rifle Squad 42 and production ended ages ago. Does it mean that this division is basically useless (at least its rifle squad component) since it will have no replacements?

Thank you very much again Alfred, you posts are always so precise and helpful.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ITAKLinus -- 1/25/2021 10:39:22 AM >

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Francesco

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 3

RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 11:20:53 AM

Alfred

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Ah, the value of a screenshot. Wish others with inflated egos which don't match their capabilities would similarly provide screenshots.

1. Regarding your dutch Militia squads, you have misunderstood the column heading. The Militia indeed were in production from Dec 1941 until the end of June 1942. This column you have understood correctly. The "In Pool" has no Militia in it, so currently there are no Militia squads to distribute to any units. What you are misunderstanding is the "Use So Far" column which has the number 42 in it. This column simply records that over the entire course of the game to date, 42 Militia squads have been distributed to units. It doesn't matter if those units which previously received Militia squads as replacements no longer exist on the map. What matter is that sometime in the past, it might have been January 1942, or April 1942, some Dutch units received Militia squads as replacements.

2. The Militia Squad "Build Rate" is 3. That doesn't mean that you are guaranteed every month (whilst the device was in production) to produce 3 per month. There are randoms involved so actual monthly production can vary. Usually when the build rate of any device is 10 or less, particularly when it is only 2 or 3, the odss are that the randoms will be negative quite often and the actual number created that month will be less than the quoted "Build Rate".

3. The difficult explanation is why does the "Produced This Month" column have the number 14. You could similarly question why the Rifle Squad and Cav Squad fields also have a positive number in them. Well, the real answer would require looking at your saved file and debugging it. There is no one around to do that. What I will say is that a similar phenomenon is found with obsolete squads of 6+ month expiry of other countries which don't have on map any units equipped with the obsolete squad. In short, it is a candidate for a visual bug where it seems the field records the aggregated production run of that squad. For game play purposes, it has no impact as what really matter is whether the "In Pool" column discloses any squads.

4. As to the "mighty" 31st Division. You need to check what it's current TOE is. If it's current TOE is the original game start TOE, you simply have to upgrade the TOE to its current entitlement. The TOE screen will tell you whether the upgrade is overdue or still scheduled for a future date. Once you have the latest TOE the squads will upgrade to the squad version specified in the TOE.

It is important to understand the difference between a TOE upgrade and a device upgrade. The latter is sequential. There is a detailed post on the subject from me made some years ago. If I have time tonight, I'll try to locate that thread.

Alfred

(in reply to ITAKLinus)

Post #: 4

RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 1:58:55 PM

BBfanboy

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Maybe part of the answer to #3 is that the Dutch DO get some new units arriving in 1945 (after Holland is liberated). Note the Dutch '45 Squads scheduled for 08/45 in the device screenshot.

Another point on reading the "Used So Far" column: You will occasionally see a negative number there (the minus sign is shown after the digit though). That indicates devices coming into the pool by something other than production - by units upgrading old devices or the Reinforcement Convoys (which are treated as LCUs that disband three days after they arrive). Look in the LCU reinforcement queue for the reinforcement convoys. There are quite a few in the first year of the war but they taper off a lot after that.

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Post #: 5

RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 2:10:33 PM

RangerJoe

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I think that this is the thread:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3605051

quote:

.
.
.
.
In view of the several threads which have been opened just this week on the same topic ie LCU upgrades, it is appropriate to summarise the following points.

1. TOE upgrades and device upgrades are separate, independent actions.

2. A TOE upgrade occurs automatically, without any player input, when these LCU conditions are met:

(a) it is in "rest" mode
(b) it is located at a friendly base
(c) it is within 2x the command range of a Command Level HQ

3. Device upgrades require player input and occur when:

(a) for squad/engineer devices, when a 1:1 pool ratio exists, for all other devices when the pool ratio is 1.5:1
(b) sufficient supply is available to purchase the new devices
(c) the unit has replacements turned on and the upgrade toggle is on

NB - although not mentioned ever by any developer I strongly suspect the current code status ties in the purchasing of the new upgraded devices to the normal device replacement cycle, IOW if a unit took replacements on Monday but with upgrade toggled off and on Tuesday has upgrade toggled on, it won't purchase any new devices until it is next able to check for replacements on Thursday.

4. After purchasing the new upgraded squad/engineer devices, the superseded squad/engineer devices are converted to the upgraded standard and sent to the pool. Superseded non squad/engineer devices are sent back to the pool in their superseded standard.

5. The only devices in the pool which are themselves upgraded there are superseded squad/engineer devices. They start to convert to the new standard 6 months after they were superseded.

Alfred
In view of the several threads which have been opened just this week on the same topic ie LCU upgrades, it is appropriate to summarise the following points.

1. TOE upgrades and device upgrades are separate, independent actions.

2. A TOE upgrade occurs automatically, without any player input, when these LCU conditions are met:

(a) it is in "rest" mode
(b) it is located at a friendly base
(c) it is within 2x the command range of a Command Level HQ

3. Device upgrades require player input and occur when:

(a) for squad/engineer devices, when a 1:1 pool ratio exists, for all other devices when the pool ratio is 1.5:1
(b) sufficient supply is available to purchase the new devices
(c) the unit has replacements turned on and the upgrade toggle is on

NB - although not mentioned ever by any developer I strongly suspect the current code status ties in the purchasing of the new upgraded devices to the normal device replacement cycle, IOW if a unit took replacements on Monday but with upgrade toggled off and on Tuesday has upgrade toggled on, it won't purchase any new devices until it is next able to check for replacements on Thursday.

4. After purchasing the new upgraded squad/engineer devices, the superseded squad/engineer devices are converted to the upgraded standard and sent to the pool. Superseded non squad/engineer devices are sent back to the pool in their superseded standard.

5. The only devices in the pool which are themselves upgraded there are superseded squad/engineer devices. They start to convert to the new standard 6 months after they were superseded.

Alfred

But read the entire thread as well.

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(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 6

RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 2:37:24 PM

RangerJoe

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Here is a list of all the threads that I found in my search. Interesting reading:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/searchpro.asp?phrase=TOE+upgrade&author=Alfred&forumid=528&topicreply=both&message=body&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&language=single&top=300&criteria=AND&minRank=0&sortMethod=r&submitbutton=+OK+

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

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Post #: 7

RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 3:41:55 PM

Randy Stead

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This answers something else that has been on my mind. In the Guadalcanal scenario I have an Aus infantry unit one hex east of Port Moresby that is due for an upgrade from militia to Aus 42. Although it indicates I have upgrades and replacements allowed, it is not taking in the '42 squads from the pool, of which there are plenty.

From what I understand this is not happening because it is not in a friendly base. As it is in contact with an enemy LCU in the same hex, it cannot go into rest mode either. Which leads me to a new curiosity: what happens to an LCU that is attacked while in rest mode? I will assume it is bad, because it is not postured and ready for combat.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 8

RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 3:52:24 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

This answers something else that has been on my mind. In the Guadalcanal scenario I have an Aus infantry unit one hex east of Port Moresby that is due for an upgrade from militia to Aus 42. Although it indicates I have upgrades and replacements allowed, it is not taking in the '42 squads from the pool, of which there are plenty.

From what I understand this is not happening because it is not in a friendly base. As it is in contact with an enemy LCU in the same hex, it cannot go into rest mode either. Which leads me to a new curiosity: what happens to an LCU that is attacked while in rest mode? I will assume it is bad, because it is not postured and ready for combat.

Yes, rest mode is bad for combat. If you have multiple units in a contested hex but want some to rest, then put them into "Reserve" mode with "No Pursuit." If needed for combat, they will then participate.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Randy Stead)

Post #: 9

RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 4:29:27 PM

Randy Stead

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From: Ontario, Canada
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Excellent idea, Joe, thanks.

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RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 4:41:50 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Here is a list of all the threads that I found in my search. Interesting reading:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/searchpro.asp?phrase=TOE+upgrade&author=Alfred&forumid=528&topicreply=both&message=body&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&language=single&top=300&criteria=AND&minRank=0&sortMethod=r&submitbutton=+OK+

Good to see I am not the only one to do the famous search by Alfred.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

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RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 5:41:43 PM

RangerJoe

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Here is another link that does NOT

include Alfred posting:

Squad Upgrade Issue

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3604963&mpage=1&key=

It does describe the process fairly well how multiple units could upgrade squads from a supply that appears to be too small to do all of the upgrades in one turn. I do NOT know if the system was changed.

But it does have Bullwinkle58 posting who ran some tests which then gets explained by another individual named michaelm75au.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Lowpe)

Post #: 12

RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 6:29:37 PM

Andy Mac

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Alfred is correct

To add a little more colour to the debate because I designed most of it for James and Michael to implement so I think I can remember why I did it this way.

Squads devices are basically an amalagam of trained manpower and various TOE devices.

The US, USMC, Japan, China all in effect have no real manpower constraint in WITP all that matters is whether enough supply exists to upgrade to the next level of squad, company and Bn TOE which is then averaged across the squad level elements we use in game. (Japan is constrained by their economy)

The logic behind what we did was mostly for the Commonwealth nations where manpower was more limited
e.g. NZ made a decision to support 2nd NZ Div, Britain disbanded AA units to provide infantry replacements, India formed whole new units out of what the British called non martial races in India and over time removed the pre war 1 British to 2 Indian Bns per Bde rule due to lack of British Replacements and in Australia numerous units were disbanded to provide replacements,

The system was designed to try and reflect these decisions and restrictions the CW faced and was designed- mostly for the Br CW nations (and Dutch, Burmese/Malay units) to be short of devices specifically Infantry Sections, but also Bren sections & Vickers MG sections (where a huge amount of a CW Bn's firepower was) and 25 pounders and 3" mortars etc etc

If a player send an Australian Militia Division overseas with the very weak Militia Rifle Section that has consequences that manpower is almost irrelplaceable if lost - if NZ sends a militia Bde to Suva and its lost this has consequences for a player

The low ratings of CW Divs at start and low section ratings represent the chronic shortage of small arms and support weapons at wars start.

The few units intended for overseas service have better quality equipment but de facto some of the Maharaja ISF forces actually had more modern equipment in 1941 than the British India Army.

The Section/Squad Upgrade rules were designed to reflect the lack of replacements and to avoid having to artificially inflate replacement rates to allow upgrades to happen by allowing sections returned to the the pool to be automatically given the upgraded TOE at a section level - ie the manpower is the same they just have better small arms so once you hit the magical 108 Sections of the new type you can start a rolling programme of small arms upgrades across all of a nations units.

Andy

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 13

RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 6:47:32 PM

Lowpe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Here is another link that does NOT include Alfred posting:

Squad Upgrade Issue

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3604963&mpage=1&key=

It does describe the process fairly well how multiple units could upgrade squads from a supply that appears to be too small to do all of the upgrades in one turn. I do NOT know if the system was changed.

But it does have Bullwinkle58 posting who ran some tests which then gets explained by another individual named michaelm75au.

I remember that thread a little.

My last turn...a lot of CMF Militia to Inf for the Aussies. More than what is in the pools for CMF Inf.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 1/25/2021 6:48:43 PM >

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RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 7:23:01 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
My last turn...a lot of CMF Militia to Inf for the Aussies. More than what is in the pools for CMF Inf.

Yeah, it seems that michaelm decided to not touch the code in the end and allow repeated squad usage in the replacement phase :) I've not seen this happening with regiments recently though when doing my share of Allied ID upgrades through A/B/C, contrary to Bullwinkle tests in that thread. It was always 1 regiment a turn when a pool was enough for a regiment, and hence 3 turns for a whole division to upgrade. Not to imply that it's impossible ofc.

also, the initial issue of this thread with "this month" column for squads with non-existing units is a visual bug allright.

(in reply to Lowpe)

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RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/25/2021 9:22:13 PM

Ian R

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
....

(b) the auto upgrade is not done in a single hit. The rate is not disclosed.

....

Alfred

Based on merely anecdotal observations (i.e., I kept a pencil note from time to time of the number of some old squad type that was no longer being drawn from the pool by any unit in use on the map) I calculated it looked like about 2%, maybe a little more.

I do not mean 2% per diem. I forget whether it was per week or month. It was a slow process.

Edit - this observation only relates to spare squads left in the pool. Those that are upgraded in units are not included in this. They, de facto, upgrade in place, in a Dunniganesque piece of DfE.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 1/25/2021 9:32:16 PM >

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RE: Allied Squad Replacement Pool - 1/27/2021 4:19:02 PM

ITAKLinus

Posts: 630
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Sorry for the late answer: time is always in short supply!

Thank you all so much for the precise and quick replies.

I was indeed extremely puzzled by the "produced this month" column. Also this issue has been addressed.

Thanks again for helping a newbie allied player like me

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Francesco

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