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Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 12:52:38 AM

Randy Stead

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From: Ontario, Canada
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I've seen a number of times when an ASW unit is dropping DCs I see the message about the target sub being rattled by near misses, with one or more "*" in the text line in the animation. What effect does the rattling have, and why are there different numbers of asterisks? I've had a sub rattled but when I check on my turn I don't see any damage.

< Message edited by Randy Stead -- 1/27/2021 1:29:58 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 1:38:26 AM

rustysi

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From: LI, NY
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Its just eye candy. No real meaning. Other messages mean more, just remember to check your subs after they've been in battle. Lots of FOW in messages when it comes to subs.

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(in reply to Randy Stead)

Post #: 2

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 1:40:30 AM

Randy Stead

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Thanks, Rusty. No way of knowing what goes on underwater, but I do think stuff like oil slicks, explosion and debris are reason to hope.

(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 3

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 1:53:24 AM

RangerJoe

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Sometimes when the turn runs you will get reports of turbulence spotted by an airplane on patrol. I think that they are actually reporting whale farts . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Randy Stead)

Post #: 4

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 2:33:35 AM

BBfanboy

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The asterisks are supposed to represent how close to damaging the sub the d/c came. I don't think it ties into the actual algorithm, it is just there for your imagination to work with.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Randy Stead)

Post #: 5

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 4:53:00 AM

bradfordkay

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Re-watch Das Boot to get an idea as to what "rattled" means for a submarine under depth charge attack.

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fair winds,
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Post #: 6

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 5:37:22 AM

Ambassador

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Even if the attack only rattled the sub, this still can cause some system damage. What you really want to see are hull penetration and the like.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Sometimes when the turn runs you will get reports of turbulence spotted by an airplane on patrol. I think that they are actually reporting whale farts . . .

And when your pilots report a submarine hit, what they really mean is ��for once, we managed to drop the bombs while flying over the waves�� ; maybe one in three or four hits are real (if you�re using trained pilots), and usually are not damaging enough to sink the ship, but enough to make it abort the patrol.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 7

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 6:02:51 AM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Even if the attack only rattled the sub, this still can cause some system damage. What you really want to see are hull penetration and the like.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Sometimes when the turn runs you will get reports of turbulence spotted by an airplane on patrol. I think that they are actually reporting whale farts . . .

And when your pilots report a submarine hit, what they really mean is ��for once, we managed to drop the bombs while flying over the waves�� ; maybe one in three or four hits are real (if you�re using trained pilots), and usually are not damaging enough to sink the ship, but enough to make it abort the patrol.

I had a Dutch sub hit by one 250kg bomb and it sank right away.

Some IJN carriers were cruising past so it probably was a bomber on Naval Search.

Those IJN carriers submerged later.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Ambassador)

Post #: 8

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 1:00:29 PM

Ambassador

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Even if the attack only rattled the sub, this still can cause some system damage. What you really want to see are hull penetration and the like.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Sometimes when the turn runs you will get reports of turbulence spotted by an airplane on patrol. I think that they are actually reporting whale farts . . .

And when your pilots report a submarine hit, what they really mean is ��for once, we managed to drop the bombs while flying over the waves�� ; maybe one in three or four hits are real (if you�re using trained pilots), and usually are not damaging enough to sink the ship, but enough to make it abort the patrol.

I had a Dutch sub hit by one 250kg bomb and it sank right away. Some IJN carriers were cruising past so it probably was a bomber on Naval Search.

Those IJN carriers submerged later.

A 250kg is already a big block of steel and kaboom, and some of the Dutch subs are less durable. But the big oceanic submarines are a lot more resilient, especially to 250lb bombs.

When you get hits, it pays to send a true ASW TF on the hexes towards the expected home port.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 9

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 1:10:34 PM

fcooke

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The rattles thing is interesting.....I have not noticed mush in the way of damage from them but was thinking it might hurt morale. But I have not looked at that set of data.

(in reply to Ambassador)

Post #: 10

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 5:22:02 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Even if the attack only rattled the sub, this still can cause some system damage. What you really want to see are hull penetration and the like.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Sometimes when the turn runs you will get reports of turbulence spotted by an airplane on patrol. I think that they are actually reporting whale farts . . .

And when your pilots report a submarine hit, what they really mean is ��for once, we managed to drop the bombs while flying over the waves�� ; maybe one in three or four hits are real (if you�re using trained pilots), and usually are not damaging enough to sink the ship, but enough to make it abort the patrol.

When I played head to head, the claimed hits by Allied patrol aircraft (search and ASW) were about 20 to every actual hit in the Japanese sub damage listings. That was early in the war when Allied pilots were low in experience and skills.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Ambassador)

Post #: 11

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 5:23:41 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The rattles thing is interesting.....I have not noticed mush in the way of damage from them but was thinking it might hurt morale. But I have not looked at that set of data.

Yes, it is very hard to turn steel to mush underwater.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to fcooke)

Post #: 12

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 5:37:21 PM

Ambassador

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Even if the attack only rattled the sub, this still can cause some system damage. What you really want to see are hull penetration and the like.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Sometimes when the turn runs you will get reports of turbulence spotted by an airplane on patrol. I think that they are actually reporting whale farts . . .

And when your pilots report a submarine hit, what they really mean is ��for once, we managed to drop the bombs while flying over the waves�� ; maybe one in three or four hits are real (if you�re using trained pilots), and usually are not damaging enough to sink the ship, but enough to make it abort the patrol.

When I played head to head, the claimed hits by Allied patrol aircraft (search and ASW) were about 20 to every actual hit in the Japanese sub damage listings. That was early in the war when Allied pilots were low in experience and skills.

The skill level of the pilots in the early war is really abysmal, already for their primary skill, but even more so for secondary skills like ASW, NavS or NavB (for level bombers). I did a head-to-head game too, and I felt (but I did not keep any stats) that the number of false positives was way down once the pilots were trained above 60. I may still overestimate it a bit with the one in three or four, but if you count the hits that increase the sys damage, it should be around that.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 13

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 5:45:32 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The rattles thing is interesting.....I have not noticed mush in the way of damage from them but was thinking it might hurt morale. But I have not looked at that set of data.

messages of subs being rattled by depth charges do exactly NO damage at all, you can have two dozen of these messages and your sub still has 0 sys 0 flt and 0 eng damage. Near misses and direct hits do damage, the near misses mostly low single digit sys and flt and direct hits do the real damage... of course there are the "special" damage messages like engine damage or damage to torpedo tubes

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Post #: 14

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 8:15:19 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

I've seen a number of times when an ASW unit is dropping DCs I see the message about the target sub being rattled by near misses, with one or more "*" in the text line in the animation. What effect does the rattling have, and why are there different numbers of asterisks? I've had a sub rattled but when I check on my turn I don't see any damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MimdpQJmCfM

(in reply to Randy Stead)

Post #: 15

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 8:36:44 PM

RhinoDad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Re-watch Das Boot to get an idea as to what "rattled" means for a submarine under depth charge attack.

My Uncle was Radioman on USS Trigger. He went off an easy going person. Came back on leave once, was a nervous wreck. Could not sit still, fidgeting, chain smoking. Outside of looks he was a totally different person. Could not even smoothly hand over a watch he gave as a gift, just fumbled it about.

Is still on eternal patrol so no idea how he would have been over time.

_____________________________

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Post #: 16

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 9:13:38 PM

RangerJoe

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[image][/image]

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Re-watch Das Boot to get an idea as to what "rattled" means for a submarine under depth charge attack.

My Uncle was Radioman on USS Trigger. He went off an easy going person. Came back on leave once, was a nervous wreck. Could not sit still, fidgeting, chain smoking. Outside of looks he was a totally different person. Could not even smoothly hand over a watch he gave as a gift, just fumbled it about.

Is still on eternal patrol so no idea how he would have been over time.

An aunt's first husband is on the USS Argonaut . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 17

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 9:43:06 PM

RhinoDad

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Joined: 12/22/2020
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SM 1 or SS 475?

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Improvise, Adapt and Overcome

Success is how you bounce on the bottom

Experience is a comb life gives us after we have lost our hair

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Post #: 18

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 9:55:29 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

SM 1 or SS 475?

WWII, the one in the game . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 19

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/27/2021 10:04:50 PM

RhinoDad

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It is fun to see and use ships you knew someone on or an Admiral you met. All the ships my father was on are in the game except YP-518. Strange thing is if ship is sunk when my father was on board, I get this irrational bad feeling. Unless it is one of the ones he was sunk on then it is just a, �well I know he made it off okay�.

_____________________________

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome

Success is how you bounce on the bottom

Experience is a comb life gives us after we have lost our hair

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 20

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/28/2021 7:20:14 AM

Ambassador

Posts: 1674
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From: Brussels, Belgium
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

It is fun to see and use ships you knew someone on or an Admiral you met. All the ships my father was on are in the game except YP-518. Strange thing is if ship is sunk when my father was on board, I get this irrational bad feeling. Unless it is one of the ones he was sunk on then it is just a, �well I know he made it off okay�.

He has been on several sinking ships ?

(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 21

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/28/2021 12:44:06 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

It is fun to see and use ships you knew someone on or an Admiral you met. All the ships my father was on are in the game except YP-518. Strange thing is if ship is sunk when my father was on board, I get this irrational bad feeling. Unless it is one of the ones he was sunk on then it is just a, �well I know he made it off okay�.

He has been on several sinking ships ?

Well, submarines are supposed to sink, are they not?

In fact, the only thing lower than a marine, by definition, is a submarine - aka, pigboat!

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Ambassador)

Post #: 22

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/28/2021 2:49:46 PM

RhinoDad

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Joined: 12/22/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

It is fun to see and use ships you knew someone on or an Admiral you met. All the ships my father was on are in the game except YP-518. Strange thing is if ship is sunk when my father was on board, I get this irrational bad feeling. Unless it is one of the ones he was sunk on then it is just a, �well I know he made it off okay�.

He has been on several sinking ships ?

Yes, USS California, Pearl Harbour; USS Lexington, Coral Sea; YP-518, island landing not sure which one; and a couple destroyers but the names slip me at this moment.

_____________________________

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome

Success is how you bounce on the bottom

Experience is a comb life gives us after we have lost our hair

(in reply to Ambassador)

Post #: 23

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/28/2021 2:57:48 PM

RhinoDad

Posts: 221
Joined: 12/22/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

It is fun to see and use ships you knew someone on or an Admiral you met. All the ships my father was on are in the game except YP-518. Strange thing is if ship is sunk when my father was on board, I get this irrational bad feeling. Unless it is one of the ones he was sunk on then it is just a, �well I know he made it off okay�.

He has been on several sinking ships ?

Well, submarines are supposed to sink, are they not?

In fact, the only thing lower than a marine, by definition, is a submarine - aka, pigboat!

When my father was on YP-518 they did some Sub supply between island runs. He said you would try to be downwind of where you were to meet them. As you could smell them before seeing them it let you get the supplies to them faster. He told me that is why they are called pig boats because they smelled like a mix of rotten rubbish and very dirty stale body odor.

< Message edited by RhinoDad -- 1/28/2021 3:05:13 PM >

_____________________________

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome

Success is how you bounce on the bottom

Experience is a comb life gives us after we have lost our hair

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 24

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/28/2021 3:26:04 PM

Ambassador

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

It is fun to see and use ships you knew someone on or an Admiral you met. All the ships my father was on are in the game except YP-518. Strange thing is if ship is sunk when my father was on board, I get this irrational bad feeling. Unless it is one of the ones he was sunk on then it is just a, �well I know he made it off okay�.

He has been on several sinking ships ?

Yes, USS California, Pearl Harbour; USS Lexington, Coral Sea; YP-518, island landing not sure which one; and a couple destroyers but the names slip me at this moment.

I�m not sure he�s to be considered as lucky or unlucky !

(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 25

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/28/2021 3:30:19 PM

Randy Stead

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I had a great uncle who was in the merchant marine in WWII and twice survived sinking by U-boat attack. The second time his family thought he was dead as the ship was reported sunk but they never got an official death notice. Turns out he was incommunicado for some reason, security cordon or such. Three months later he shows up at home. I heard a story about him through my brother, which I regard as kind of apocryphal: supposedly he and a mate were strafed while in the water. He could swim so he dove deep. His buddy could not swim and stayed up top in his lifejacket. When my uncle came up again his buddy wasn't saying anything and when he shook him his torso inverted, severed by gunfire. Now that story to me seems rather dubious; did the Germans strafe survivors? Perhaps, but I think there was more of an honour code on both sides when it came to men in the water. I've only read one account of a U-boat gunning down survivors, and even in that account the U-boat was said to be gunning the floating debris to sink it, in order to not leave evidence of their presence. So, who knows? By the time I was old enough to question him he was out of province and I never saw him again. We also had a Boer war veteran in our building who used to regale my eldest brother with war stories. Same deal, by the time I was old enough to have a good conversation Old Dad had passed away.

(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 26

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/28/2021 8:25:55 PM

RhinoDad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

It is fun to see and use ships you knew someone on or an Admiral you met. All the ships my father was on are in the game except YP-518. Strange thing is if ship is sunk when my father was on board, I get this irrational bad feeling. Unless it is one of the ones he was sunk on then it is just a, �well I know he made it off okay�.

He has been on several sinking ships ?

Yes, USS California, Pearl Harbour; USS Lexington, Coral Sea; YP-518, island landing not sure which one; and a couple destroyers but the names slip me at this moment.

I�m not sure he�s to be considered as lucky or unlucky !

He called it unlucky. Always went from one fire to the next. Ended up with 17 battle stars from that one and all over scars for his efforts. In the opening of Patton movie where Patton says you would not want tell your kids you shoveled s*** in Louisiana, my father looked at me and said I would have preferred that.

_____________________________

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome

Success is how you bounce on the bottom

Experience is a comb life gives us after we have lost our hair

(in reply to Ambassador)

Post #: 27

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/28/2021 8:39:40 PM

RhinoDad

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Joined: 12/22/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Randy Stead

I had a great uncle who was in the merchant marine in WWII and twice survived sinking by U-boat attack. The second time his family thought he was dead as the ship was reported sunk but they never got an official death notice. Turns out he was incommunicado for some reason, security cordon or such. Three months later he shows up at home. I heard a story about him through my brother, which I regard as kind of apocryphal: supposedly he and a mate were strafed while in the water. He could swim so he dove deep. His buddy could not swim and stayed up top in his lifejacket. When my uncle came up again his buddy wasn't saying anything and when he shook him his torso inverted, severed by gunfire. Now that story to me seems rather dubious; did the Germans strafe survivors? Perhaps, but I think there was more of an honour code on both sides when it came to men in the water. I've only read one account of a U-boat gunning down survivors, and even in that account the U-boat was said to be gunning the floating debris to sink it, in order to not leave evidence of their presence. So, who knows? By the time I was old enough to question him he was out of province and I never saw him again. We also had a Boer war veteran in our building who used to regale my eldest brother with war stories. Same deal, by the time I was old enough to have a good conversation Old Dad had passed away.

My sister's husband's father was in the US merchant marine and was taken prisoner aboard a U-boat, what are the odds, and spent most of the war a POW.

The vets were full of stories that seemed unreal. However, at least in my experience, over the years much of their stories get born out through USN, USAAF, RAF, USMC official records or photo notations. If put in a movie it would be mocked but there is often corroborating evidence. It is often the stuff in secondary and tertiary evidence that turns out to be more creative with the truth.

What year. By mid '43 the U boats became iron coffins and was considered a death sentence. People like that sometimes lose what civility they had left.

The US tended to do that to Japanese after sinking but that was a whole different war with different rules/practices. Somewhat like the eastern front German vs Russian.

_____________________________

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome

Success is how you bounce on the bottom

Experience is a comb life gives us after we have lost our hair

(in reply to Randy Stead)

Post #: 28

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/28/2021 8:41:53 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

It is fun to see and use ships you knew someone on or an Admiral you met. All the ships my father was on are in the game except YP-518. Strange thing is if ship is sunk when my father was on board, I get this irrational bad feeling. Unless it is one of the ones he was sunk on then it is just a, �well I know he made it off okay�.

He has been on several sinking ships ?

Yes, USS California, Pearl Harbour; USS Lexington, Coral Sea; YP-518, island landing not sure which one; and a couple destroyers but the names slip me at this moment.

I�m not sure he�s to be considered as lucky or unlucky !

He called it unlucky. Always went from one fire to the next. Ended up with 17 battle stars from that one and all over scars for his efforts. In the opening of Patton movie where Patton says you would not want tell your kids you shoveled s*** in Louisiana, my father looked at me and said I would have preferred that.

What they don't point out in the movie was that the speech was given in 1944, I think in September, and I believe to a Negro tank battalion. Considering what most of those soldiers did, they preferred what they actually did do. Patton wanted reinforcements and that was what was left. They actually were highly trained and did very well.

During the Battle of the Bulge, some American infantry units were hard pressed and heard some troops moving in. They thought that the Germans were moving in but when they saw the soldiers' natural deep tans, they knew that they were not Germans. Many of those men took reduction in rank to go voluntarily to the front lines. One platoon reinforcing a depleted infantry company. They earned the respect of their new comrades, which helped things after the war.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to RhinoDad)

Post #: 29

RE: Sub rattled? - 1/29/2021 5:50:55 AM

Lokasenna