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How good is the AI now ? - 1/30/2021 4:01:51 PM   
Oddball67

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 12/13/2020
Status: offline 		As i'm trying to come back from a looong time far from the game, i wondered how the AI good is ? Is it worth playing a campaign against it, or is it purely time lost ?
thanks in advance
Post #: 1
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/30/2021 4:20:03 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oddball67

As i'm trying to come back from a looong time far from the game, i wondered how the AI good is ? Is it worth playing a campaign against it, or is it purely time lost ?
thanks in advance


I have played many campaigns against the AI. It sure wasn’t as fun as the PBEM I played with a friend, but at least the AI is always available.

Seriously, as long as you avoid strategies, tactics or outright abuses which can break the AI by taking advantage of the scripted nature of the AI’s strategy, you can have a fun game. Specifically, avoid defending too far forward, or too strongly where the AI is committing units peacemeal, and don’t ambush lone CVs where you know they’re making round trips...

If you impose to yourself some realistic strictures, like you would if you had to explain yourself to Roosevelt and Churchill, you’ll still have fun.

There is a list somewhere of a dozen bases which must not be made in fortresses, to avoid breaking the AI, I’ll see if I find it, but in short it’s Singapore, Palembang, Batavia, Rabaul, Wake, Rangoon (and Moulmein)... Don’t make too strong a stand in the Philippines either.

(in reply to Oddball67)
Post #: 2
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/30/2021 4:23:27 PM   
Randy Stead


Posts: 454
Joined: 12/23/2000
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		Ambassador, I will keep my eyes open for your list. Until I learn and master this game, which is going to be my assignment for this year, the AI will be it for me. I hope to teach my brother some day, but for now solo is the only game in my town.

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 3
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/30/2021 4:24:12 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

This is from Alfred and AndyMac:

Time and time this question is asked. It really is pointless. It is not the specific script, not the particular scenario which matters. Any scenario/script (yes even Nast Nasty Tier 3) will cease to be competitive if the Allied human player focuses on stopping at all cost computer Japan from capturing in 1942 these bases:

1. Singapore
2. Manila
3. Clark Field
4. Bataan
5. Palembang
6. Batavia
7. Soerbaja
8. Rangoon
9. Mandalay
10.Rabaul


These bases are absolutely essential for any computer script.

Not quite essential but still of great assistance in maintaining a competitive AI player is for these bases to also be captured by the computer.


11. Port Blair
12. Port Moresby
13. Tarawa
14. Shortlands
16. Lunga
17. Akyab


All these bases (with the exception of Port Moresby) were historically captured by Japan, and it wasn't enough to make Japan really competitive in the war. Why do human Allied players believe that denying the computer these bases will allow the AI to remain competitive when the real life Japan with these bases wasn't competitive.

Alfred

From here


Also, play at least on Hard difficulty, as it’ll give some supply help to the AI (it needs them). Very Hard and/or Ironman (or Ironman Nasty, or Nasty-Nasty) at your convenience.

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 4
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/30/2021 4:30:48 PM   
Randy Stead


Posts: 454
Joined: 12/23/2000
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		Thanks, Abassador. I've copied it to a Word document and it's going into "The Binder."

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Post #: 5
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/30/2021 4:30:53 PM   
Oddball67

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 12/13/2020
Status: offline 		thank you very much for these quick and complete answers !

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 6
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/30/2021 5:16:48 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		You should also go to this thread and update your AI files. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4257473&mpage=1&key=�

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Post #: 7
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 3:25:00 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		In a stock scenario, a balanced game is on VH. VH best simulates a human opponent.
For an Ironman scenario, Hard is about a balanced game, with movement to VH about 5 days/month. Playing totally on VH is giving the AI a bit of an advantage, not nearly though what many state.

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Pax

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Post #: 8
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 4:28:50 PM   
Phoenix100

 

Posts: 2826
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		I am just graduating off CS, TMW and Guadalcanal and thinking also of starting against the AI scenario 1. These are useful hints. Thanks. Nothing quite deadens the shock, however, of sitting out the first 7 Dec attacks (ten minutes for that AI turn, say) and then being suddenly just left alone, with all that map and all those units and bases in front of you, staring speechlessly at the prospect of it, all the time considering that it takes me at least fifteen minutes to complete a turn in which something is happening (in many turns there's nothing to do, true...) in even those smaller scenarios, and hence - how long is it going to take me to even get to grips with everything I'm looking at in the full historical scenario, and then how long to do a turn, and then...to complete the first year ONLY - 365 of those turns....it's staggering... This has to be THE game for the hardcore grognards... my hat is off to them all.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 9
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 4:35:55 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Kull has some suggestions for what to do.

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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― Julia Child


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Post #: 10
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 4:47:28 PM   
RhinoDad


Posts: 221
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline 		When playing scenario 001 or one of the rather large scenarios, it can be helpful to save your first couple of turns separately. That way if you make a catastrophic error or wish to start over again you do not need to spend the many first turn hours over again.

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Post #: 11
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 4:55:45 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Save every turn, even after parts of the turn, until you are comfortable with the game.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to RhinoDad)
Post #: 12
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 5:33:01 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenix100

I am just graduating off CS, TMW and Guadalcanal and thinking also of starting against the AI scenario 1. These are useful hints. Thanks. Nothing quite deadens the shock, however, of sitting out the first 7 Dec attacks (ten minutes for that AI turn, say) and then being suddenly just left alone, with all that map and all those units and bases in front of you, staring speechlessly at the prospect of it, all the time considering that it takes me at least fifteen minutes to complete a turn in which something is happening (in many turns there's nothing to do, true...) in even those smaller scenarios, and hence - how long is it going to take me to even get to grips with everything I'm looking at in the full historical scenario, and then how long to do a turn, and then...to complete the first year ONLY - 365 of those turns....it's staggering... This has to be THE game for the hardcore grognards... my hat is off to them all.

My couple of advices before you embark in a genuine first full campaign :

1) just run the scenario for a dozen turns or more, even a month or two, without worrying about anything. Move a couple of TFs, issue a couple of orders to squadrons or to LCUs, just look around to see how things evolve. Don’t look at this run as a real game, just familiarize yourself with the rhythm of the game, and get a turn routine you’re confortable with. It’ll help you get a feeling of the scope and length of the game - and also spot a couple of adventures you shouldn’t embark upon (like tackling KB with 3 CVs...). A grand campaign takes at least a year to play, you may exercice some patience for a few days before embarking in such an adventure.

2) take that time to check the distances between various points, including alternative routes, you might get surprises. For example, one could think that routing a convoy from Cape Town to Karachi by Mombasa would be the same distance than the direct route, when it’s really 17 hexes fewer (which is important if you send fuel to Perth by passing through CT to avoid the map). Check the port and airfield SPS to know which hubs you should develop. Factor the needs of the Indian and Australian industries, and how many tankers have to be assigned to that task only.

3) take a good look at some of the devices upgrade paths, and production, mainly for the whole Commonwealth’s squads and AFV areas. Some of that is tricky, and you have to actively manage the pools - so, you need to know how many devices you get. Check the convoys you will receive in the war, they include a lot of devices which are essential.

4) check the on-map LCUs and the reinforcements. You’ll get overwhelmed at first, but look at them by sorting them through the nationalities and types. You’ll spot a couple of good units to buy with PP before they fill up (hint : check the Indian Armored units). Logistics is not limited to supply and fuel : political points have to be husbanded too, don’t pay extra when you can avoid. You’ll also see the units you’ll receive already affected to unrestricted commands (and won’t feel bad for the ones you’ll lose during the first six months).

5) take notes of what you see by doing the above points, formulate a global strategy, notably for your logistical train.

6) once you start your real campaign, follow the advice of saving every turn, to be able to go back. Take notes of what happened, of the orders you issued. Don’t try to do everything every turn, at first.

7) every time you think you’ve lost an important asset, open the reinforcement lists, and unwind.

(in reply to Phoenix100)
Post #: 13
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 5:46:09 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Never give a withdrawing unit replacements unless you actually need the unit to defend things, such as the US units on the West Coast that withdraw later unless the West Coast is invaded. You will lose those devices.

Don't give replacements to units that you will buy out later unless you absolutely have to have the unit for defense since it will make the unit more expensive later.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 14
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 6:35:52 PM   
Phoenix100

 

Posts: 2826
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		LOL. Fantastic advice. Overwhelming too, like the game. But I very much like the advice to just run it and mess around and get the hang of it and don't think of it as real, at first. That's very cool advice, because otherwise I might just think...oh no..what do I do...? I'm also astonished every time I look at it that they actually built a game with SO MUCH detail, and it looks as if it's all more or less historically accurate, even down to the pictures. As modded, at any rate. Which has mostly been the work of those in here, I guess.

One of the things that keeps encouraging me to try again with this monster game, over many years and many returns now, is just how friendly, helpful, polite and uncomplicated this forum is. In my view it ought to get an award for the best forum on Matrix, and indeed wider. People in here are unerringly helpful and you never have to deal with the crap that flows on various other forums, one in particular here at Matrix, where sometimes a few characters can ruin the tone of almost any thread with cheap sarcasm and irritation. Hats off again, guys! Thanks.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 15
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 6:48:18 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline 		You should see the advice I gave to a friend when he started the game. It would amount to at least two dozen full pages (format A4, recto-verso).

(in reply to Phoenix100)
Post #: 16
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 6:55:03 PM   
Randy Stead


Posts: 454
Joined: 12/23/2000
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Never give a withdrawing unit replacements unless you actually need the unit to defend things, such as the US units on the West Coast that withdraw later unless the West Coast is invaded. You will lose those devices.

Don't give replacements to units that you will buy out later unless you absolutely have to have the unit for defense since it will make the unit more expensive later.


That advice is relevant to some of the units in my Guadalcanal scenario. There are some B-17 units up at Townsville which will be withdrawn during the scenario, I believe. What would be best to do with them?

I am thinking of using them as training squadrons. If my hunch is correct, just before they withdraw I could pull out the trained crews and put them into bomber reserve, fill them out with rookies from the replacement pool and then withdraw them; let their new command invest the time and resources necessary to train them. Is this a good idea? I know I will have to check the manual to see if this is possible.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 17
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 6:56:46 PM   
Randy Stead


Posts: 454
Joined: 12/23/2000
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

You should see the advice I gave to a friend when he started the game. It would amount to at least two dozen full pages (format A4, recto-verso).


I thank you and others for posting these nuggets of wisdom. I copy them into Word documents and put them in The Binder.

Two more entries just went it, from you and RangerJoe.

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 18
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 6:58:31 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		No need to put pilots in the units when they withdraw. As far as it goes, sometimes the withdrawing aircraft will go to the pools although sometimes it take time for them to get there.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Randy Stead)
Post #: 19
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 7:36:25 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline 		In some cases, the pilots and planes are lost when disbanded, but other times they are not. It depends on the type of disband/withdrawal, but it’s usually said when you click on the button. Anyway, using those squadrons is better than doing nothing with them, as long as you remember to empty them before they leave. But in some cases, you can withdraw them early and earn some PP by doing so.

Same for the LCUs : you have to make a distinction between « withdraws » and « withdraws out of theater » ; in the latter case, don’t ever build them, unless real dire emergency (like a Japanese invasion of NW USA) or if you really have plenty devices and no unit to pour them in (99% of the cases : won’t happen).

I’ll give you a third entry : know your opponent’s capabilities. See how much Oil is around ? That’s the utter limit of your opponent’s industrial expansion. If he invades the whole SRA, Burma and China, he can have around 24k fuel per day, and starts with slightly over 7000 HI with those conquests in the SRA (a bit more once China is factored in, if he doesn’t stop them, and repairs them if damaged). Out of that fuel, 14k is then already needed for industry, and you can count on 10% more of that to bring that fuel to the industry (or even more ; unless he uses the magical railway). This leaves at most 8k-9k fuel available for fleet operations, or less - probably less. 1000 more HI may be supported easily, but more may put a strain on his fleet operations. All included, HI, LI, refineries, he can produce between 25k and 30k supply per day - but as the Allied, you can get (from off-map bases, as well as India and Australia) over 80k supply and 70k fuel (industry needs deducted), or respectively three and seven-to-ten times as much as he can have available.

Now, the interesting part is how much fuel KB guzzles : over 40.000 fuel to refill their bunkers. So, every time KB is used and needs a good refill (quite frankly, given the ships’ endurance, pretty much every time it has to react from a moderate distance), it is 40k less fuel for the industry. 40k fuel poured in the industry leads to 40k HI points and 40k supply - enough, for example, to produce véhicule and armament points to reconstitute a good infantry division and allow it over 20k supplies.

Moreover, all those operations conducted far in the SoPac area ? He needs to bring supply there. My rule of thumb is : 1.000 supplies cost 1 fuel per hex to bring them (more or less depending on the fuel efficiency of the cargoes and the amount of escorts). So, your subs have faulty torpedoes ? Well, if you keep them in port, he can dispense with the heavier escorts and scale down the ASW air operations, so using your subs, even how inefficient they look, participates to the attrition of the enemy ressources.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 20
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 1/31/2021 8:08:19 PM   
Randy Stead


Posts: 454
Joined: 12/23/2000
From: Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		One more entry for The Binder. Thanks, Ambassador, RangerJoe, Ian R, BBFanBoy, Alfred, et al. I really appreciate these gems that you veterans dispense from time to time. You may not always receive thanks, but know that at least some of us rookies feel immense gratitude for your efforts.

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 21
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 2/1/2021 7:51:21 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline 		I'm currently in Dec 42 as the Japanese playing scen 2. I've not expanped beyond history and the Allies seem to be doing stuff historically few silly raids, invading Guadal and arounf New Guinea. I have few airgroups set to naval attack for good reason the AI seems to want to send TF from the Pacific to India via Singapore or the other way round??? Sometimes it routes stuff close to other bases were a single Kate group can take them out as they have little protection. So basicall let it. Don't have any naval attack groups.

The via Singas bit is really dumb and probably the worst thing I've seen the AI do.


(in reply to Randy Stead)
Post #: 22
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 2/1/2021 8:49:57 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		I reckon playing the Allied AI, you either play "Revenge of the Dorniers" (iron-man version), or you judge your performance on whether you get an auto victory ASAP.

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Post #: 23
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 2/2/2021 11:51:10 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I reckon playing the Allied AI, you either play "Revenge of the Dorniers" (iron-man version), or you judge your performance on whether you get an auto victory ASAP.

There are 3 tiers of the Allied AI Ironman, as there are for the IJ AI version.

If you search back far enough, you will even find a terrifying 4th tier ... beyond insane ...

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Post #: 24
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 2/2/2021 11:58:39 PM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I reckon playing the Allied AI, you either play "Revenge of the Dorniers" (iron-man version), or you judge your performance on whether you get an auto victory ASAP.

There are 3 tiers of the Allied AI Ironman, as there are for the IJ AI version.

If you search back far enough, you will even find a terrifying 4th tier ... beyond insane ...


I don't remember a 4th tier 🤔 when did it come out....GP

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Post #: 25
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 2/3/2021 2:28:51 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline 		Andy posted it for about 2 days ... I don't know, 5 -6 years back. Vicious. I play a modded version of it ...

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Post #: 26
RE: How good is the AI now ? - 2/3/2021 4:57:47 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		I thought tier 3 was "Revenge of the Dorniers", but maybe it was that #4.

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Post #: 27
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