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Most complex board wargame simulation ever?

 
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Most complex board wargame simulation ever? - 8/18/2003 1:55:48 AM   
Zyrhe

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 8/18/2003
Status: offline 		I've still got my copy of Strategic Publications, Inc.'s 1976 publication of War in Europe. Anyone remember that one? For the campaign game it has 8 or 9 large maps that it would require 2 4x8 sheets of plywood in order to lay them all out. If memory serves, the game has over 2,000 counters and 4 separate rule books.

I was never actually able to find anyone else willing to take the time to learn how to play it, so it remains a virgin.

It is possible that there exists a more complex simulation than that?

Zyrhe
Post #: 1
- 8/18/2003 8:03:28 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Hmm Fire in the East weighs in at 10K counters and a 6'x8' map on several panels.

And while that is impressive, it isn't the whole game possible.
Europa adds Fall of France to the mix another massive influx of counters and a large map area.
Then there is the Urals add on, yet more map.
I still have Merita Merkur which provides the Balkan regions of Europe and yes lots of counters.
And I have Western Desert with its long band of maps and again oodles of counters.

If you look at any of the game boxes you can seen an image of all the map potential of this ultra monster wargame.

Not sure how it rates complexity wise though, the rules design is fairly standard as divisional based games go.
Size is after all not the total determining factor.

I have Longest Day, a stunning 5.5 x 5' mounted map game. Again with the 10k counters supply and largely all each counter being unique as well (except for a small sum of misc counters).
But the game is really a straightforward design rules wise. I actually consider it one of my easier to learn wargames.

Pacific War is a challenge just finding someplace to locate the myriad organizational charts used in the course of the game.

But when it comes to just an issue of complexity and not a measure of the size of the map or the density of the counters, I think the hands down winner has to be Advanced Third Reich. With the Research manual from Rising Sun thrown in, it easily masters the competition.
World in Flames is a very close second place though and can claim to be the only global contender of merit.

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Post #: 2
- 8/18/2003 8:51:44 AM   
Fallschirmjager


Posts: 6793
Joined: 3/18/2002
From: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Status: offline 		Id love to get into boargames...unfortunatly I will never have any luck finding an opponent

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Post #: 3
- 8/18/2003 10:17:45 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Come on Fallschirmjager surely you have seen my sig line :)

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 4
Re: Most complex board wargame simulation ever? - 8/19/2003 1:33:41 AM   
Paratrooper

 

Posts: 272
Joined: 6/15/2003
From: descending on Stockholm
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zyrhe
[B]It is possible that there exists a more complex simulation than that?[/B][/QUOTE]

Despite it huge size, SPI's War in Europe is not that difficult to learn or play. IIRC it rated a '4' on the complexity scale - 10 being the most complex.

I agree with Les GDW(?)s Fire in the East by itself is quite possibly the most complex boardgame to learn and play.

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Post #: 5
- 8/19/2003 1:25:33 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline 		In my experiences the most difficult (and pain in the ***) tabletop I've ever seen was Europa Universalis.

Not only were the rules and bookkeeping downright insane, it was a bad translation from French to English. Just plain unwieldy.

It still sits practically untouched on a shelf in the basement glaring at me.

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Post #: 6
- 8/19/2003 8:34:38 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Ahhh well there is a difference between difficult/complex to play and enjoy, and difficult/complex to merely understand hehe.

A3R is about as complex as it gets either way.

It is no easy rulebook to master, nor any simple game to actually play.

I can't immediately recall any game that was simply just to hard to understand though.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 7
- 8/19/2003 11:08:33 PM   
Bunker22

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Status: offline 		Well, regarding complexity, I have to agree with Les that nothing, absolutely nothing beats Advanced Third Reich

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Post #: 8
- 8/19/2003 11:26:58 PM   
Fredflak

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 2/24/2003
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		Fallschirmjager I have the exact same problem. I own a few war boardgames, but hard to find players. I collect them even tho I don't play them with someone. PBEM is always a solution with things like cyberboard.

Tho if anybody here who plays boardgames is in the Quebec City area, which I doubt, i'm always looking for players.

As for complex, I guess it depends on what you consider complex. Havent played Advanced Third Reich, only the original Third Reich and that wasnt very complex, mostly just very chess like, a mistake and your gone.

I'll throw my vote with War in Europe for the monster size. And John Prados's Third Reich, the new edition by Avalanche Press, because of the bad rule book which is extremely confusing. Very fun game once you figure it our tho.

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Post #: 9
- 8/19/2003 11:37:47 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		If you know John Proados Third Reich then you actually already know Advanced Third Reich as it is not original Third Reich but a revamped edition of Advanced Third Reich also referred to as "Classic" Advanced Third Reich.

I am impressed though hehe, not many people will refer to even original Third Reich as not very complex hehe.

It earned its 10 rating then, and definitely deserves it now.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 10
- 8/19/2003 11:46:16 PM   
Fredflak

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 2/24/2003
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		I guess I just don't evaluate something as complex like most poeple do. Third Reich could be said to be complex because it doesnt forgive mistakes you made.

And if the new John Prados version is based on the Advanced one, then it's not really that complex either. Only the rulebook is a mess, and hard to find information in it.

To me a complex game would be one with too many differant charts, confusing rule book, very large map and lots of units. Hum... guess a game becomes complex for me when its too big and confusing. :)

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Post #: 11
- 8/20/2003 12:33:12 AM   
Kent Pfeiffer

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 2/8/2001
Status: offline 		Well, there's always A World at War. It's A3R combined with Rising Sun plus a lot of additional chrome. The rulebook is supposedly around 200 pages. It was just released this month by GMT Games.

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Post #: 12
- 8/20/2003 1:09:16 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		And the last price I saw for A World at War almost gave me heart failure hehe.

The "cheap" P500 rate from GMT is 148 bucks (US I am thinking), and the pay at the door price is 178 bucks (again US but at this point does it matter?).

Let's just say I am frickin glad I have a copy of original A3R and glad of it.

Lets see, if I actually had 178 bucks US what would I do with it?
Buy myself the dvd burner I have been lusting after, not a slightly rebuilt board game I already own the best part of eh.

And yes there are some that think Rising Sun was the weak link in the globalization process of the design.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 13
- 8/20/2003 1:35:37 AM   
Fredflak

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 2/24/2003
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		Had the same reaction when I saw that. Boardgames sure are expensive. Probably because it doesn't have a huge market, and well they need to make some money.

The only boardgame that i've been very tempted to get lately is Totaler Krieg. I like the system and how it plays. Only problem is finding players. ;)

Also thinking of getting the package deal on all the boxes for Panzer Grenadier, already have the first one and its not in the package deal. Saves almost 50 percent.

I checked the vasl link on your sig Les. Looks good, too bad that the ASL games are so hard to find. Been curious about it a lot. The only box that I ever saw was the Solitaire box that is in a local store, kinda useless without the rules, maps and counters.

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Post #: 14
- 8/20/2003 2:18:01 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		ASL is about the only game that when called elitist I have to just let the person say it hehe.

Only a very select few can say they have the series, and it ain't for the squeemish to purchase after the fact.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 15
- 8/20/2003 2:23:29 AM   
Fredflak

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 2/24/2003
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		I kept looking for the rule book and some of the modules but couldnt find it.

I missed a chance to buy two of the Deluxe modules, I saw them in a store, but when I saw that they needed the regular modules I decided to wait and try to find the others first. But I never did and these deluxe modules eventually vanished. Would have bought them anyway, I started to collect wargames, buy everything I see in stores when I go shopping.

One that i'm hesitating about is the Victory serie, i'm curious about them if they are any fun. Not too sure on how they use blocks.

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Post #: 16
- 8/20/2003 2:43:27 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Victory most secure use of your wargaming dollar ever dude.

I am more than willing to call it the best wargame released in the 90's.

There is not enough kind things I can say about it.

If you want, they have a budding new forum at Columbia Games too.

http://games.harnforum.com/

The game is pure enjoyment. The blocks stand upright concealing their identity and status. Ensures fog of war in a simple easy manner. The rules are perhaps the easiest wargame rules ever written. It takes longer to learn to play Axis and Allies :)

There is no historical bias involved, when you lose at a game of Victory, its because your opponent was better. It simulates WW2 style combat, but it really is just military force vs military force.

The game is expandable beyond its base game package of 2 player mix. It can handle 6 players easy if you get the needed amount of expansion sets.

This game is perfect.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 17
- 8/20/2003 2:48:04 AM   
Fredflak

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 2/24/2003
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		Will have to check it out then. They have all of the Victory games at the store I go to. Will grab one of them. Any suggestions on which front to grab first? Any of them better than the other?

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Post #: 18
- 8/20/2003 3:02:42 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Hmm by Front that sounds like not Victory The Blocks of War but its more serious cousins.

I have East Front (first in series) and West Front and Mediteranean Front.

Together they make a nice set. But they are a wargamers wargame while Victory is more introductory friendly for friends that might lack wargaming savvy and experience.

If fortune finds you locating a copy of Rommel in the Desert though grab it. Best block game they have, but long off the market.

I have no experience with their other block games but find it hard to believe that could be any less good.

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I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 19
- 8/20/2003 3:37:54 AM   
pasternakski


Posts: 6565
Joined: 6/29/2002
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fredflak
[B]too bad that the ASL games are so hard to find. Been curious about it a lot. The only box that I ever saw was the Solitaire box that is in a local store, kinda useless without the rules, maps and counters. [/B][/QUOTE]

You can pick up a lot of the ASL series, including the rules, on eBay from time to time, but ASL is a horribly expensive habit. By the time you get the 3-ring binder rules, the first module, "Beyond Valor," and some of the follow-ons to flesh the thing out, you're in for at least a couple of hundred bucks, even for used, punched games. Then, if you get really into it, you can start on the "deluxe" series and the new Multi-Man Publishing stuff. A thousand dollars American will evaporate like a friendly welcome to Iraq.

No wonder you complain so much about being broke all the time, Les, you nine/minus-one wonder, you.

_____________________________

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And the people let me down.
So, I turned the other way,
And I carry on anyhow.

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Post #: 20
- 8/20/2003 3:55:24 AM   
Fredflak

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 2/24/2003
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		Thanks for the info.
I actually think they have both the fronts and the Victory serie. They also have the one on the battle of Quebec. I think i'll grab that one since its where I live ;)

They deluxe modules for ASL were pretty expensive when I saw them in the store. And the fact that I would have to pay in canadian dollar will only make it seem even more expensive. But i'm a crazy and impulsive buyer, go shopping for books, movies, music and games pretty much once a week. Which is why i'm afraid of internet shopping, wont be able to stop ;)

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Post #: 21
- 8/20/2003 4:40:06 AM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		The deluxe modules were an experiment that was judged not quite worthy actually.

They made two modules, one for Stalingrad and for Normandy.

All you really were getting was 4 maps of two panels each in the box. They featured friggin enormous hexes and that was it.

For a bit you could get leads that were actually scaled to meet the scale of the hex. I have a Tiger that has all the detail of a Tamiya 1/35th scale model. Truely stunning.

But deluxe just didn't fly with the core crowd enough to sell.

I of course have them because in the 80s I had a real job a real income and nothing to spend it on much heheh. God I miss the 80's.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 22
- 8/20/2003 5:52:04 AM   
Strat

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: comfy chair
Status: offline 		Maybe it's because I have not played a complex board wargamein a lot of years but here is my choice.

Storm over Europe, (SoE). still trying to work it out. oh it's a board game design using ADC2.

World in flames, the lot, the whole lot. thank god for the computer version. well it's still in Beta but it works. Come on ADG sort it out.

Strat..

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Well in theory.

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Post #: 23
- 8/20/2003 1:35:16 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline 		Yeah, got A3R also. I still think in an overall sense the tabletop Europa Universalis beats it. You would feel my pain if you saw it. :eek:

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Post #: 24
- 8/20/2003 9:16:26 PM   
Fredflak

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 2/24/2003
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		I'm having a difficult inner struggle now. I checked on ebay for ASL stuff. And found one guy offering this:

Original Squad Leader Game, partly punched, complete, with ASL boards 1-4
Cross of Iron, complete, unpunched, with ASL board 5
Crescendo of Doom, complete, unpunched, with ASL boards 6 and 7
Original ASL Rules Set in hard box and jacket, sl worn, including all charts And tables and chapters A through G.
ASL Rules Second Edition, opened once for inspection only, new and Complete in hard cover binder. (No hard jacket was issued for this)
ASL Hard Cover Jacket and Box, Worn, with the following:
Chapter H with vehicle/ordinance notes for German, Russian, British American, Italian, Chinese, French, Japanese
Chapter J Deluxe ASL
Chapter K Squad Leader Training Manual
Chapter N Armory, with reduced pics of all counter sheets
Chapter O Red Barricades Chapter for HASL 1. (Map is in box and Scenarios are in next item in this list)
Chapter P Kampfgruppe Peiper chapter, (Map and scenarios as above)
ASL Hard Cover Jacket/ Box , New, with Scenarios in plastic sheet protectors:
ASL Scenarios 1-82
Red Barricades Scenarios RB 1 - 5
Deluxe ASL Scenarios 1 - 18
Kampfgruppe Peiper Scenarios 1 - 4
Leatherneck USMC/Japanese Scenarios 1 - 13 by SS Bar Enterprises
Jatkosota Scenarios for Russo Finnish War 8 scenarios plus counters
And Finnish Vehicle Notes , by Critical Hit.
Aussie Rout Pack 1, with 8 scenarios
Aussie Rout Pack 2, with 10 scenarios
ASL 96 Pack by Australian Paddington Bears 10 scenarios
Windy City Wargamers with 10 scenarios
ASL Hard Cover Jacket/Box, new with:
Platoon Leader Campaign Scenarios A - E
Operations of the SS Panzer Abteilung 102 in the Normandy Campaign By Critical Hit, scenarios and large color overlay
Time On Target Issue 2 Dec 95 April 1945 at the Sharp End 32 scenarios, 32 hard counters, and overlay
Beyond Valor Module 1
Paratrooper Module 2
Yanks Module 3
Partisan Module 4
West of Alamein Module 5
Last Hurrah Module 6
Hollow Legions Module 7 (May be missing a few infantry counters, but all Counter values are there.)
Code of Bushido Module 8
Gung Ho Module 9 (Chinese Counters unpunched)
Croix de Guerre The French Module 10
Streets of Fire DASL Module 1
Hedgerow Hell DASL Module 2
Red Barricades ASL Historical Module 1
Kampgruppe Peiper 1- Historical Module 2
Kampfgruppe Peiper 2 Historical Module 3, Open, Unpunched, Complete
Doomed Battalions Module 11, Opened, Unpunched, Complete
Pegasus Bridge ASL Historical Module 4, Open, Unpunched, Complete
Blood Reef Tarawa ASL Historical Module 5, Opened, Unpunched, Complete
A Bridge Too Far ASL Historical Module 6, Open, Unpunched, Complete
Operation Watchtower Guadalcanal, Historical Study 1, Open, Unpunched, Complete
ASL Action Pack 1, with boards 42 and 43
Rare 5 X 6 ASL vehicle cards for German, Russian, British and American AFV's
ASL Action Pack 2 complete with 8 scenarios and boards 46 and 47
Dzerhezinsky Tractor Works by Critical hit. Scenarios and map for more Stalingrad battles
Time On Target No. 3 Rare German Vehicles, Hard Counters, 13 Scenarios And Chapter H Supplemental
Euro Pack IV War in North Africa with 8 Desert Scenarios
Oaf Pack 1 - 10 more scenarios
Critical Hit Revised and Updated ASL Index
Photocopy of Schwerpunkt Oct 98 Magazine


All this in one bundle. Part of my brain scream "I want it!". But another is paranoid about ebay since I have never used it, and it would be a very big spending. So far the bets arent that high, guess i'll wait a few days to see how high it climbs.

(in reply to Zyrhe)
Post #: 25
- 8/20/2003 9:41:57 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Ok that is nearly a complete and total and absolutely full set of the whole enchilada.

The only real question before you is this.

Will anyone kill you if you bought it :)

And of course....

Will you end up being just another person on eBay selling a list that mirrors this one in 6 months to a year?

I am not even going to try to hazard a guess at the shipping cost, it would fill quite the hefty box easily, and those boxes will be heavy eh.

If I had a choice to buy this, and I had the capacity to casually buy say a new computer, or any other purchase ranging from 1000 to 2000 Canadian cash, it might be possible.

But I own all of ASL and I actually know my chances of getting into ASL if I was just staring today.

On my income, the answer is [SIZE=4]Zero![/SIZE]

There really is only one real tangible perk to owning a complete set of ASL. You can basically laugh and not care a whit if your computer blows up tomorrow leaving you with only ASL to play.

If I had to save all my wargames and my computer system, OR just my ASL and I had to choose one or the other, the choice would be ASL and I would not need a moment to think about it.

The only thing not there is the Annuals and the Journals.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

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Post #: 26
- 8/20/2003 9:52:38 PM   
Fredflak

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 2/24/2003
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		Like I said, i'm a very impusive buyer, and i'm lucky enough to be able to afford my current lifestyle, which includes restaurent food every day. And since I started to collect wargames, ASL is one of those that I feel I need in my collection. But like I said, I will wait and see how high the price climbs, there are still 5 days left to the auction. The shipping price is high, but it weights a lot, and thats understandable. My main concern isnt really the money, but my paranoid mind who has a hard time trusting online stores and auctions.

As for the annuals and journals, the same guy is selling them in their own auctions. Probably because they are the things that poeple are looking for the most on ebay.

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Post #: 27
- 8/20/2003 10:10:38 PM   
Les_the_Sarge_9_1

 

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline 		Hey if you want, give me a link to the auction, I would like to see what they think ASL is worth.

Send it PM if you don't want to splash it around.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Zyrhe)
Post #: 28
- 8/20/2003 10:15:56 PM   
Fredflak

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 2/24/2003
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline 		There, sent it to you. Not that its hard to find, it pops up in your face with just the right search. But i'm not gonna make it easier to other potential buyers. ;)

Shipping is gonna be 75$. Its the price UPS gave the guy for a package that weights 90 pounds. Big box :)

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Post #: 29
- 8/21/2003 12:58:58 AM   
Strat

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 4/2/2002
From: comfy chair
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fredflak
[B]My main concern isnt really the money, but my paranoid mind who has a hard time trusting online stores and auctions.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Hmmm, my wife uses Ebay all the time and has never had a problem.
But that does not mean that you won't. Have you checked the person's record. Has he sold anything on Ebay before, chances are that if the answer to the second is yes and no-one has made a bad comment about him, then he is genuine.
On another note, if he was in the business of ripping you/others off, he has certainly done his homework to piece that lot all together.
My gut instinct is he is genuine, but you gotta make your own decision buddy.

Hope this helps a bit.

Strat..

_____________________________

Einstien rules relativity,
Well in theory.

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