Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI

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[Poll]

Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI

Naval Hexes as it currently is

45% (25)

Naval areas like Hearts of Iron

54% (30)

Total Votes : 55

(last vote on : 2/21/2022 6:15:08 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

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Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/1/2021 8:39:18 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Survey for coding of the WarPlan 2 engine.

ANSWER THE POLL QUESTION AT THE TOP OF THE POST

< Message edited by AlvaroSousa -- 3/31/2021 2:06:43 PM >

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/1/2021 11:45:20 PM

ClaudeJ

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You mean Strategic region, Alvaro?

https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Strategic_region

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/2/2021 12:25:17 AM

toddtreadway

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Areas are a much better way to simulate strategic naval warfare. Hexes are fine for localized land combat, but naval warfare, abstracted with uncertain encounters, etc., is (in my opinion) MUCH more accurate with a zone rather than hexes.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/2/2021 1:30:41 AM

AlvaroSousa

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The current system I have is a hybrid of hex/area as your fleet creates the area around it basically.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/2/2021 2:09:07 AM

baloo7777

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Do you mean Naval boxes similar to WiF?

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/2/2021 4:23:10 PM

sillyflower

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Whichever has the bigger area. I don't want thousands of either. I much prefer HOI model over the current WP hexes for that reason, but I'm not really interested in naval matters as opposed to what happens on dry land.

< Message edited by sillyflower -- 2/2/2021 4:25:58 PM >

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/2/2021 4:23:19 PM

stjeand

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Not that I am in the beta but what is being tested?

I used to love the board game Bismark where you had to search and search to find the ship.
Giant areas leave it all up to chance...but if the areas are not that giant...something like a current hex and all surrounding that would not be to bad.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/2/2021 5:48:27 PM

AlvaroSousa

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As the poll says areas like HoI3 which are small areas.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/2/2021 7:11:17 PM

stjeand

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Sorry don't play HOI...
No worries...more hexes the better for me. The ocean is a big place.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/3/2021 12:27:45 AM

Ratbag55

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I would actually prefer a hybrid system: hexes for coastal areas (perhaps 5-10 hexes out from shore?), and areas for the high seas.

This would allow for more detailed planning and operations of shore areas (mining, blockade, shore support etc), while representing warfare on the high seas in a less micromanaged fashion.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/3/2021 2:46:10 AM

AlvaroSousa

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I thought about that also.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/3/2021 4:20:58 AM

WraithMagus

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Hexes would make sense if you had actual ability to throw out search planes and had to patrol areas of the ocean to find enemy fleets, as opposed to always being able to see where enemy fleets are, yet having a random roll tell you that your forces can't see or do anything about the carrier fleet that just rolled up off the coast and started bombing your port because you Failed a Spot Check, neener neener. Naval combat in WarPlan seems to take place completely without you, going on in between turns with little to no input on your part, which is rather unsatisfying. (Also, the only time carriers can launch planes against submarines now is to monkey-guard their home ports and bomb them when they should be at their most safe...) It's not that escorts don't work, but there is no feedback on their effectiveness unless I look up the combat log - even the reports don't bother to tell you if you sunk a submarine, the token just disappears from the map with no explanation between rounds. I hope WarPlan: Pacific will make naval combat a little more involved.

Regardless, if naval combat is largely the same hands-off affair, it might as well be naval areas, since the only difference between one general North Atlantic area and hexes would just be the range of land-based aircraft. I'd personally rather the game go towards more control over things like reconnaissance and make naval hexes make more sense, however.

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Post #: 12

RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/3/2021 6:27:05 AM

battlevonwar

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Loss of tactical influence(strategic command series would have hexes that would dominate the game) it's more micro. It's more macro to have a HOI like model. I like the abstraction!

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Post #: 13

RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/3/2021 11:49:11 AM

squatter

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Sea areas rather than hexes for me definitely.

Much, much better way to represent the strategies and realities of this side of the conflict.

Having fleets inhabit a single 'hex' during a game with fortnight-long turns is rather absurd really. As is chasing submarines around a map.

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Post #: 14

RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/3/2021 12:37:28 PM

MorningDew

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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter
Having fleets inhabit a single 'hex' during a game with fortnight-long turns is rather absurd really. As is chasing submarines around a map.

Those two reasons are exactly why I am in favor of zones over hexes.

I MIGHT change my mind if convoys where abstracted to "convoy duty" boxes - eliminating the chasing around of subs/raiders (let assigned convoy resources fight it out off map in the boxes).

Another improvement (in my opinion) would be the ability to toggle naval units to a mode (like air units) that they should/should not intercept, and that includes in port naval units. With 2 week turns, British fleets in port in Alexandria should be able to intercept an invading Italian fleet if within some hex range. Eliminates some micro-management. Perhaps fleets in "intercept mode while in port" still use oil?

A 3rd would be that units marked for intercepting should intercept until their effectiveness or strength are below a certain level, so small "soak off" moves don't remove all intercepts.

< Message edited by MorningDew -- 2/3/2021 1:19:26 PM >

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/3/2021 2:33:59 PM

baloo7777

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I like the WiF method of sea movement intercept with boxes within areas that allow for differing types of intercepts. How will invasions work in your new system? Is the English Channel a sea area?
I haven't played HOI so I don't know how it works. Still haven't voted yet, but I really don't like the sub/escort/convoy system as it is now and would like something different at least in the Pacific Theater.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/3/2021 3:21:30 PM

ago1000

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Alvaro, with regard to sea zones, could you please elaborate a little more of what you were planning? How they would work? Is programming the AI easier with sea zones?

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/3/2021 6:04:31 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Haven't figured it out yet. I just tossed this out there.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/3/2021 8:38:09 PM

Nirosi

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Hi,

Although I voted "hexes", my real preference if possible would be hexes when close to land (the med, the Baltic, North sea etc...) but sea zones in the open seas such as the Atlantic; a hybrid sysntem as Rattbag55 mentioned (ETO was a little like that; the best board wargame I ever played). Both systems can have bizarre consequences, but I remember that in WiF it was so annoying to be attacked by planes with short range that would never have been in range in reality. If the UK wanted to protect Gibraltar, it needed ships at sea in the Western Med that could be under Italian fighter CAP from... Sardinia... In a situation like that I would prefer hexes (or very very small seas, but that would almost come back to hexes) to be able to stay close to Gibraltar and avoid the enemy planes from Sardinia. I also remember how we foudn it very amusing to see the Axis invading Syria but with bf 109 fighter cover from... Crete (well, some chances of cover anyway depending on the roll).

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/3/2021 11:39:45 PM

James Taylor

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I haven't thought this completely through, but what about a system of coastal hexes, areas(island chains) with hexes and for the open ocean an area without hexes.

The idea being that it cost different movement points to traverse from one area to another and also dependent on the assets in each area a level of detection dictates whether combat takes place or not.

OK so like for coastal hexes, the ones adjacent to land areas, it cost 1 MP, unless of course mines or some other obstruction exists then the cost goes up. These would also be the hexes of greatest intel so combat(intercepts) are highly likely.

If a fleet moves from a coastal hex into a more open ocean area, the areas with hexes, then it will cost an additional amount of MPs, say like 10. These areas with hexes would be configured with the island chains on the borders of each area so that island chains could control the intel of the area dependent upon the assets deployed. This also means that there could be conflicting islands chains on the border of a single area, say opposite each other, like the Marshalls and Gilberts.

Now if a fleet or naval unit transits to an open sea area(without hexes) which simulates the vast areas of ocean then it would cost additional MPs, like 20 as an example and it would occupy an hierarchy of status(as in WiF) for future operations.

Obviously this can get a little complicated for fuel usage and various interactions of intercepting air and naval fleets, not to mention subs but it could be worked out with a good programmer and the right coding language.

All this is loosely based upon a game by SPI I used to play called "Pacific Theater of Operations". Don't remember it really well, don't know where it is, but perhaps some of you can recall some of the aspects that could be pertinent to this conversation.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/4/2021 11:13:16 PM

baloo7777

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Well I voted for sea areas, but I really don't know how it will work with Island hopping in the Pacific. I'll have to play HOI to see how it works.
I finally started a couple PBEM games as the Allies and got to witness my poor opponents German UBoats go down (ie actually sunk 1 and did 3 pts of damage to the other) like mine do when they encounter the 10 escort convoy zone in 1939. I know there is much luck involved in the BOA, but it seems that 1939 and 1940 escorts (if using 10 at least) are outclassing 1940/41 UBoats and doing damage in most of the 7 PBEM games I am in at the moment. This is why I voted for the sea areas, as the BOA in the very early war does not seem very realistic to me in WarPlan.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/4/2021 11:47:36 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Funny my uboats never get sunk till 1943.
Even with the new rules.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/5/2021 1:49:14 PM

stjeand

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Any screen shots that we can see around the thoughts?

Just worried that the sea areas will be to large for my taste.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/5/2021 2:34:32 PM

AlvaroSousa

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The idea I have is in groups of 6-9 hexes.

BTW the secret to the uboat was is that as soon as your sub is 3 strength or below return it to base. In the early years it will be very difficult to sink them.

Late in the war yes you can lose a full sub easier but even so usually they will be crippled to 1-2.

Another thing is that as the Germans you should be spreading around the uboat love forcing the UK to make guesses of where the concentration of uboats are. Different zones forces them to concentrate on one zone or spread the escorts out along with the fleet.

< Message edited by AlvaroSousa -- 2/5/2021 2:40:54 PM >

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/5/2021 2:39:06 PM

stjeand

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6 to 9 hexes sounds good to me.

The Pacific is huge and radar pretty weak. Not sure of hex sizes but with radar at about 100 miles...you should not see all that much.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/5/2021 5:15:28 PM

ClaudeJ

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Since the Atlantic basically is there to play with or against the submarines, what about using quadrant such as the Kriegsmarine's?

Subdivided in third, it's about 300 km large. It looks to me a decent patrol zone for a 2-week turn.

https://uboat.net/maps/grid.html
http://www.navalgrid.com/find/square/bf

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/5/2021 5:16:41 PM

ncc1701e

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I still have the quadrant map of Silent Hunter III. Fun and wonderful game.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 2/5/2021 10:06:10 PM

abchambe

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For naval action, I prefer sea areas. Groups of 6 to 9 hexes, or even perhaps a bit bigger.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 10/8/2021 4:43:20 PM

AlvaroSousa

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I was thinking of something like this for sea zones. Light blue higher detection levels. dark blue lower. You can intercept two sea zones out from port.... So if you are in Scapa Flow that light blue zone, the 2 next to it and the dark blue but not the Norwegian Coast. Planes in Norway the light blue zones in range and the dark blue sea but not Scapa Flow without a direct attack if they have range.

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RE: Ocean Hexes or Ocean areas similar to HoI - 10/8/2021 5:01:56 PM

ncc1701e

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Superb map, I like your sea zones. Is it the scale of the final WP2 map?

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