Slitherine

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The fun of the game, at least for me, comes from getting these different classes of ships to work together, if freighters could mine resources, and build stations, there wouldn't be any need for any other class of ship.

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ORIGINAL: Latisrof

Not sure I understand what you are saying, but if I had to guess it would be this; If mining ships were faster than freighters then mining ships would be more efficient at mining compared to freighters.

The problem is that this isn't true, because freighters can achieve both the roles of trade and resource management in my hypothetical. Increasing mining ship speed is irrelevant, you could just do the same for the freighter, not to mention mining ships cant sell.

I mean you could just propose a change so that all ships diversify their capabilities, resource management, exploration, military expansion, but in the end there is no specialization in ship type which can have it's own draw backs. So, yeah really I just prefer ship specialization, it doesn't mean your idea is bad though, bacon would probably agree with you on a lot.

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ORIGINAL: Hazard151

The reason for this is because space construction capacity is such a critical component of Distant Worlds' decision making. Deciding whether or not to send entire fleets back home for refits or keeping them working on the front lines even if their designs have been surpassed due to advancing technology matters plenty. In opportunity cost because those ships stuck cueing up for refit aren't doing defense and pirate suppression work.

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ORIGINAL: Hazard151

But explorer and construction ships in dock are occupying a dock that could be used for a military ship for construction, refit or repair. And this ignores the scouting done by exploration ships and space infrastructure construction done by construction ships, including forward defense bases and refueling stations.

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Sometimes another game has a really good idea that is worth copying:
In Stellaris, Construction and Scienec ships automatically upgrade themself with any new technology, for free, while in deep space. (Stellairs troop transports do too, but they do not compare to DW1 troop transports).
This allows them to benefit from FTL and Sensor upgrades quickly, without having to backtrack all the way to a spaceport.

In DW1, both kinds of ships have to return to a spaceport (Exploration) or even planet (Construction Ships) for retrofits. This is a lot of time spend in FTL. And especially construction ships have to use the much more limited Planetary Yards for the work.

In DW2 it sounds like the Planet and Spaceport yards are 100% interchangeable, with the planet one simply being slower. The different levels of exploration also indicate there can be a benefit to have the Exploration Ships return home, to get better sensors, to do some additional scanning work.
Still, maybe some automatic self-upgrading would be a usefull ability to avoid having to backtrack entirely? Naturally in DW it would not be free or instant.

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ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

~snip~

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ORIGINAL: SirHoraceHarkness

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ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

~snip~

Ships already auto upgrade without the need for a refit in DWU when you research an improvement to an existing tech. So after you get the first tech level unlocked you get the benefit of any new research on it even if the ship is half way across the galaxy. It's only when there is a brand new tech in a certain line that requires a trip to a dry dock.

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ORIGINAL: geforth

Stellaris and Distant worlds are two completely different games. In stellaris you have an universe without simulation and it is complete static. No traffic, no freighters, no private economy. The whole game is extremely abstracted and it is defined by values which goes up and down and you have everything under control. And in this abstracted universe it is maybe okay to make such things (but which are controversially discussed by the community and it is done because the clausewitz engine is at the end). Distant Worlds simulates a lot, like the transport of goods and the non player controlled private economy. In distant Worlds 2 such things will be a massive immersion break.

But of course, upgrades in the stellar space could be realizable in distant worlds. Maybe the player can build upgrade ships, which transport goods and technology like in tng which they collect in deep space stations. Could be a cool feature. ^^

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ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Sometimes another game has a really good idea that is worth copying:
In Stellaris, Construction and Scienec ships automatically upgrade themself with any new technology, for free, while in deep space. (Stellairs troop transports do too, but they do not compare to DW1 troop transports).
This allows them to benefit from FTL and Sensor upgrades quickly, without having to backtrack all the way to a spaceport.

In DW1, both kinds of ships have to return to a spaceport (Exploration) or even planet (Construction Ships) for retrofits. This is a lot of time spend in FTL. And especially construction ships have to use the much more limited Planetary Yards for the work.

In DW2 it sounds like the Planet and Spaceport yards are 100% interchangeable, with the planet one simply being slower. The different levels of exploration also indicate there can be a benefit to have the Exploration Ships return home, to get better sensors, to do some additional scanning work.
Still, maybe some automatic self-upgrading would be a usefull ability to avoid having to backtrack entirely? Naturally in DW it would not be free or instant.

This is just a terrible idea that we should NOT copy from a game like Stellaris or other games... the current way it works involve allot more tactical and strategical choices... it also make zero sense that ships are able to just upgrade themselves, even construction ships for many practical reasons.

Designing a ship to be able to upgrade itself would be a complete waste of space and you would have to invest allot of other opportunity of efficiency into that hull... unless you want ships just magically have this ability without equiping them with some large cumbersome module to do it?!?

I just don't see any reason what so ever to introduce something that remove what is the fun and interesting part of DW.

Ships usually have to go back to stations once in a while to re-fuel and so that is a perfect time to upgrade them. If I play a game like Aurora 4x if anyone played that you also need to maintain ships as well, we don't need to do that in DW. I would rather we would need to actually maintain ships as well like in Aurora 4x if I had my wish come true, would make this game even more strategic as ships can't just sit anywhere in space without being maintained over time. Only stations would be able to maintain themselves built into their hull structure.

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ORIGINAL: SirHoraceHarkness

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ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

~snip~

Ships already auto upgrade without the need for a refit in DWU when you research an improvement to an existing tech. So after you get the first tech level unlocked you get the benefit of any new research on it even if the ship is half way across the galaxy. It's only when there is a brand new tech in a certain line that requires a trip to a dry dock.

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

They never do when I play the game.
95% of all Upgrades are new components, that need to be installed.

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ORIGINAL: SirHoraceHarkness

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

They never do when I play the game.
95% of all Upgrades are new components, that need to be installed.

When you unlock a new component there are typically a few more research projects that impact it. So after you unlock say plasma thunderbolts every new research item completed after it will automatically grant its new bonus without a refit.

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

I already explored the module limits, in the 3/4 of the Post you did not quote.

Stations in DW1 were already capable of self-upgrading, no deliveries or construction ships needed. Still cost money. I am merely asking if that should be expanded to Construction and Exploration ships.

And if they would actually go and be upgraded when refueling, it would be wonderfull. They do not!
Exploration ships can refuel at literally every gas mining station.
But can only upgrade at a space ports. Depending on the range, they might need several refueling stop just to reach a space port.

And even on automatic, the Consturction ship never queues an upgrade as long as I saw it.
Hopefully the part where construciton ships are now private economy and there is no longer planet/station shipyard difference helps.

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ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I don't want ships to be able to refit in space as it make no sense for ships to include such most likely bulky components to perform such things in space. It is Ok for a stations as they don't need engines to drag such modules around the galaxy and it makes more sense as they can't move.

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

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ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I don't want ships to be able to refit in space as it make no sense for ships to include such most likely bulky components to perform such things in space. It is Ok for a stations as they don't need engines to drag such modules around the galaxy and it makes more sense as they can't move.

Construction ships have the construction yard - a size 20 component. It also has storage to store the resource.
Putting those facilities into a Military ship would easily take up 1/2 to 1/4 of the overall ship size allowance.
And that is all asuming Construction Components aren't actually slot limited to one ship and one station design, wich has no weapon slots to arm anyway or no engines to move. Wich would make your problem impossible to produce.

As for standing still: Construction Ships in DW1 already need to stand still to use their Factories or their Construction components. As well as their Solar Collectors. No reason it would work differently here.

So your entire problem seems to be based on falacies and improper understanding of the DW1 rules - wich unless explicitly mentioned, we have to asume still apply.

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Are you talking about a Modded game?

I could find no tech or Component called "Plasma Thruster". Every last Research under Energy & Construction unlocks a component.
Except for the Standalone Construction Size upgrades, but you need to retrofit to get use from those too.

The Vanilla Game avoids passive bonuses like the Plague, having all progress be a new component.

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ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

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ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I don't want ships to be able to refit in space as it make no sense for ships to include such most likely bulky components to perform such things in space. It is Ok for a stations as they don't need engines to drag such modules around the galaxy and it makes more sense as they can't move.

Construction ships have the construction yard - a size 20 component. It also has storage to store the resource.
Putting those facilities into a Military ship would easily take up 1/2 to 1/4 of the overall ship size allowance.
And that is all asuming Construction Components aren't actually slot limited to one ship and one station design, wich has no weapon slots to arm anyway or no engines to move. Wich would make your problem impossible to produce.

As for standing still: Construction Ships in DW1 already need to stand still to use their Factories or their Construction components. As well as their Solar Collectors. No reason it would work differently here.

So your entire problem seems to be based on falacies and improper understanding of the DW1 rules - wich unless explicitly mentioned, we have to asume still apply.

Do you expect a military ship to be equipped with all this just to upgrade in the field?!?

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

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ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

Do you expect a military ship to be equipped with all this just to upgrade in the field?!?

No.
WICH IS WHY I NEVER SUGGESTED SOMETHING THAT STUPID.

Either it is your bad argument - or nobodies argument. Please get that through your skull already!

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Exploration Ships
They have a weaker case here. Unlike Construction Ships, they do not come with all the gear to make entire stations.
They should however still have laboratories and equipment to gather samples from a planet. So they might just be able to extract and process resources for their own upgrades. Or even self repair (even if the Damage Control is not yet generally avalible).

Way more important for them would be the ability to extract their own fuel, however. Construction Ships usually have to return to base for Raw building materials anyway, at wich point they might as well fuel up.
Exploration ships however are about going far away from any friendly station. When they find a Caslon/Hydrogen Gas giant and their fuel is less then full, they migh as well "top up". And if they reach the end of their fuel range, they might return to the nearest (save) planet with the proper resources.

Does anybody else think those changes would be a good idea, or is it just me?

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ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

Well... yes... I was mainly talking about explorers and constructors in general. I was not the one who brought up military ships, that was because I was a bit confused if "zgrssd" meant you could include it to them or not, it was not clear from that post.

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

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ORIGINAL: Hazard151

The reason for this is because space construction capacity is such a critical component of Distant Worlds' decision making. Deciding whether or not to send entire fleets back home for refits or keeping them working on the front lines even if their designs have been surpassed due to advancing technology matters plenty. In opportunity cost because those ships stuck cueing up for refit aren't doing defense and pirate suppression work.

Neither construction nor Exploration ships are operating on the "front lines" doing "defense and pirate supression work".

Those are military ships. And not with a SINGLE LETTER did I suggest this for Military Ships!

The points you are arguing against - it is insulting that you even suggest I made anything fo the sort.

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ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I still think it is too easy to assume a ship can upgrade itself without very specific equipment for just that. I don't even think the basic equipment a constructor comes with is enough for that. Do we even have anything really remotely able to do this in reality, an Oil rig maybe can do much of this... but can they really?!?

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

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ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

Well... yes... I was mainly talking about explorers and constructors in general. I was not the one who brought up military ships, that was because I was a bit confused if "zgrssd" meant you could include it to them or not, it was not clear from that post.

I was already very specific about this not applying to Military Ships:

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

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ORIGINAL: Hazard151

The reason for this is because space construction capacity is such a critical component of Distant Worlds' decision making. Deciding whether or not to send entire fleets back home for refits or keeping them working on the front lines even if their designs have been surpassed due to advancing technology matters plenty. In opportunity cost because those ships stuck cueing up for refit aren't doing defense and pirate suppression work.

Neither construction nor Exploration ships are operating on the "front lines" doing "defense and pirate supression work".

Those are military ships. And not with a SINGLE LETTER did I suggest this for Military Ships!

The points you are arguing against - it is insulting that you even suggest I made anything fo the sort.

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ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB

I still think it is too easy to assume a ship can upgrade itself without very specific equipment for just that. I don't even think the basic equipment a constructor comes with is enough for that. Do we even have anything really remotely able to do this in reality, an Oil rig maybe can do much of this... but can they really?!?

The construction ship already has extremely specific equipment - construction equipment!
And if that comes for the science ship, it would be tied to a "Science Laboratory" Module. Wich could easily be very specific as well.

A construction ship already has the gear to:
- build mining gear
- build components from raw materials that were mined
- assemble those components into entire working stations
- turn shipwreck into operation ships, in the middle of deep space

Putting a component into a Mining Station, in a 0-G environment.
Putting a component into itself, in a 0-G environment.
I fail to see any difference in those scenarios.

The most difficult thing might be replacing a life support component as you kinda need it. But chances are high you got more then 1 of those components and can life the few hours for the switch with only one.
Given that they apparently carry a entire mining station, science staiton or starports worth of crew without it even being a entry in the Cargohold, we can asume there is plenty of excess capacity to go around.

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Still think it is a bad and boring idea.. both from game play and realism perspective...

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You suggest that they should be able to have precognitive power to know what resources they will need to do upgrades in the future without acquire the minerals someplace and have all the specialised material and tools to build this new technology.

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The only real limitation here is resources: The new component might need resources that you can not get by recycling the old one. There are 3 options to deal with that:
1. Have them go to the nearest base with those resources. Less of a track, but still one.
2. Call a freighter to deliver the missing resources, while flying towards it for a rendevous even in deep space. They already do this in DW1, if they somehow lack resources for a Station (design changed, there was not enough at the stop, etc.)
3. Have them pre-emptively store enough resource to do a full upgrade on the fly. The number of components is more static in DW2, so ship resource costs can not siginifcantly increase on the fly.
4. Their construction equipment can be used to make mining equipment. So why not let them act as a slow form of Miner, so they can go and extract the needed resources themself from stellar objects?
3+4 could even be combined - store in advance, but mine whatever you are missing

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ORIGINAL: Linwood24

I seriously do not understand what the issue here is:
5 < 10 < 100

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ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Still think it is a bad and boring idea.. both from game play and realism perspective...