Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battle,AI)

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battle,AI)

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Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battle,AI) - 2/6/2021 9:02:11 AM

Alpha77

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline

...so I continued a bit my Allied game vs. AI (to blow stuff up

). The level is hard and scen2 what should be the latest AI (I believe)..It is April 42 I had just updated all CVs (5) at PH but most cruisers are still in work to update also a bunch of DDs. Thought I wait for the CA/CLs to have better escort for my CVs, but I need them as support for invasions at Tulagi and Lunga, one Invasion convoi already loaded waiting for the CVs.

However I decided to make a short detour in direction Canton and Baker island, to smash something. I noted AI has an interest in Canton, it took it some time ago. I thought it is not ideal to have potentiell enemy search or bombers there, so I sent a Marine regiment with 3 CVs to retake it. It was overkill there was not a single soldier at Canton the AI had not garrisoned at all (why take it in the 1st place?). However we smashed a convoy near Baker.

This time I wanted to check if we find another convoy and bomb Baker so I send the 5 CV direction Canton. I got a message Catalina killed by CAP and wondered where, cause I make sure search does not go over enemy baes with CAP. Later I found out the Cat was shot down by CV CAP and also we found 4 TFs moving SE to Canton! 3 Tfs in the same hex, one has cruisers and DDs, 1 has DDs and 1 has some CVs (I estiminated 3-4 from the numbers that turned out wrong). Another TF was trailing showing AKs (invasion fleet?).

My 2 fleets (1 has 5 CVs only 1 cruiser and the best DDs) and SF combat fleet (has only 1 cruiser and DDs) ended up 9 hexes from the JIN ones NW of Canton. There are only some CATs no combat aircraft, there is only an AVD and 2(LOL) airsupport. But also an Ak fleet is there which brought some supplies and want to extract the combat eng portion of a marine divison in preparation for combining it (the 3 regiments arrive at different times plus a the combat engs at Canton). These AKs are bigger ones, I do not want to lose them if possible but it would also be no biggie as Allies swim in such ships.

The CV planes are all rested and pilots 80-90% combat ready, missions are on max and PH is not that far away.

Would you engage vs. the AI ? Just curious to hear opinions and possible outcomes...

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/6/2021 10:24:50 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/6/2021 9:14:07 AM

Alpha77

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline

A.I. turned out to be not much better than the last game I played also as Allied. However this seemingly concerted effort to Canton surprised me - so a positive thing for the AI. However as human IJ I would rather had cared about the massive Allied build up in the Luganville/Suva/Ndeni area. Now it is to late for them, with over 300 fighters there..

Ship losses were light on both sides, AI managed not to lose combat ships at all so far, only 2 CLs went down confirmed and 4-5 DDs (x). On Allied side 3 CLs were lost one RN (to be withdrawn), 2 Dutch and also 4-5 DDs. However other shipping of the Japanese already suffered quite a bit. Not to speak of the air war, which generates Allied aces en masse - no surprise here. The AVG and the Dutch are leading so far - however fighter supplies ran out now for Hollands flyers, so they need to give up the air space over Soerabaya soon, but boy they got some kills..IJN CVE/CVLs seem to be in the Java area trying useless ground bombing missions, guess the CVE/CVL bomber airgroups are already depleted as raids have now eg. 20 Zeros with only 5 Kates etc. But the fleet coming to Canton shows real CVs which should be mostly unmolested.

xEdit, we lost 2 BBs at PH of course, 2 others heavy damage, 2 light damage. I do not include the BBs in the CV TFs cause too slow...

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/6/2021 9:42:49 AM >

(in reply to Alpha77)

Post #: 2

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/6/2021 9:58:31 AM

Alpha77

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline

Just skip this post if not interested in the combat/ops reports before the turn above:

OPERATIONAL REPORT FOR Apr 22, 42

SS Dolphin reports having been sighted by the enemy at 146 , 139
Submarine TF 21 reports having been sighted by the enemy at 53 , 45
Submarine TF 199 reports having been sighted by the enemy at 54 , 108
SS KXIV reports having been sighted by the enemy at 60 , 107
Coastwatcher Report: harbor at Lunga is reported empty
Coastwatcher Report: 4 ships in port at Shortlands
Coastwatcher Report: 1 ship in port at Finschhafen
Coastwatcher Report: 1 ship in port at Milne Bay
Coastwatcher Report: harbor at Rabaul is reported empty
Coastwatcher Report: DD Oboro reported in port at Goodenough Island
Coastwatcher sighting: 3 Japanese ships at 114,138 near Lunga , Speed unknown
2nd USMC Engineer Regiment packing for load on xAK West Cactus (TF 397), 1 day(s) remaining
2nd USMC Engineer Regiment packing for load on xAK Charles McCormick (TF 397), 1 day(s) remaining
Troops and Equipment from 103rd USN Base Force lost during loading of TF 215
Task Force 338 correcting on/off map move
Task Force 338 arrives at Cape Town but can not dock
Task Force 462 correcting on/off map move
Task Force 462 arrives at Cape Town
OS2U-3 Kingfisher sighting report: 4 Japanese ships at 157,52 near Amchitka Island, speed 10, Moving Northwest
No additional repairs possible on xAP Ardent using currently assigned resources at Trincomalee
No additional repairs possible on xAK Bandra using currently assigned resources at Karachi
Repairs completed on DD John D. Ford at Brisbane, ship returned to service
No additional repairs possible on AKE Governor Wright using currently assigned resources at Perth
No additional repairs possible on DM Sicard using currently assigned resources at Luganville
No additional repairs possible on AS Pelias using currently assigned resources at Luganville
No additional repairs possible on xAP Mariposa using currently assigned resources at Luganville
TF 113 leaving patrol zone to refuel at San Francisco
Coastwatcher Report: BB Kongo reported in port at Lunga
Coastwatcher Report: 1 ship in port at Shortlands
Coastwatcher Report: 1 ship in port at Saidor
Coastwatcher Report: 1 ship in port at Salamaua
Coastwatcher Report: 1 ship in port at Gasmata
Coastwatcher Report: 2 ships reported in port at Rabaul
Coastwatcher Report: TB Sagi reported in port at Goodenough Island
Coastwatcher sighting: 2 Japanese ships at 98,130 near Port Moresby , Speed unknown
Coastwatcher sighting: 3 Japanese ships at 114,138 near Lunga , Speed unknown
Coastwatcher sighting: 1 Japanese ship at 109,131 near Shortlands , Speed unknown
Coastwatcher sighting: 1 Japanese ship at 109,131 near Shortlands , Speed unknown
Coastwatcher sighting: 9 Japanese ships at 106,125 near Rabaul , Speed unknown
2nd USMC Engineer Regiment packing for load on xAK West Cactus (TF 397), 1 day(s) remaining
2nd USMC Engineer Regiment packing for load on xAK Charles McCormick (TF 397), 1 day(s) remaining
Troops and Equipment from 103rd USN Base Force lost during loading of TF 215
Coastwatcher sighting: 1 Japanese ship at 107,126 near Rabaul , Speed 4 , Moving Southeast
Coastwatcher sighting: 1 Japanese ship at 109,130 near Torokina , Speed 5 , Moving Northwest
TF 483 observes Japanese Float Plane at 56,104 near Soerabaja
2LT De Witte L. of 2-VI.G.V is credited with kill number 12
TF 434 observes Japanese Aircraft at 56,104 near Soerabaja
PT TM-9 has spotted a Japanese Level Bomber at 56,104
TF 45 detected by H6K4 Mavis at 92,137 near Cooktown
TF 45 detects Japanese Recon at 92,137 near Cooktown
AMc Rampur sights Japanese Level Bomber at 46,58 near Port Blair
TF 393 followed by Japanese Patrol at 46,58 near Port Blair
Search PBY-5 Catalina destroyed by CAP at (151,138)
SS Dolphin under attack by a Japanese Carrier Aircraft at 151,138
SS KXVII observes Japanese Float Plane at 53,49 near Ramree Island
Albacore I sighting report: 5 Japanese ships at 47,57 near Port Blair, speed 11, Moving East
Wirraway from No.23 Sqn RAAF attacking a Type J1 class SS at 91,168
a Japanese SS is reported HIT
PO Thompson V. of No.888 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 2
WO Livingston N. of No.880 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 4
PO Jamison F. of No.880 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 4
PO Jamison F. of No.880 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 5
PO Jamison F. of No.880 Sqn FAA attains ace status!!
WO Evans B. of No.888 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 5
WO Evans B. of No.888 Sqn FAA attains ace status!!
WO Evans B. of No.888 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 6
WO Bellamy P. of No.888 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 3
WO Evans B. of No.888 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 7
WO Bellamy P. of No.888 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 4
WO Keyworth T. of No.888 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 4
WO Baldwin U. of No.888 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 5
WO Baldwin U. of No.888 Sqn FAA attains ace status!!
WO Honan, T.W. of No.488 Sqn RAF is credited with kill number 5
WO Honan, T.W. of No.488 Sqn RAF attains ace status!!
PO Gifford, P.D. of No.488 Sqn RAF is credited with kill number 3
WO Drake H. of No.800 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 2
WO Honan, T.W. of No.488 Sqn RAF is credited with kill number 6
WO Swales L. of No.880 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 5
WO Swales L. of No.880 Sqn FAA attains ace status!!
PO Ingersoll H. of No.880 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 2
PO Ingersoll H. of No.880 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 3
PO Bellamy W. of No.888 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 2
WO Livingston N. of No.880 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 5
WO Livingston N. of No.880 Sqn FAA attains ace status!!
WO Brookes D. of No.803 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 2
Japanese Aircraft sighted over 75th Chinese Corps
Japanese Aircraft sighted over 61st PA Infantry Division
Japanese Fighter sighted over Damar
Ki-46-II Dinah sighted over Djemadja
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Kukong
WO Honan, T.W. of No.488 Sqn RAF is credited with kill number 7
PO Murray S. of No.800 Sqn FAA is credited with kill number 2
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Changsha
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Groot Natoena
Japanese Torpedo Bomber sighted over Iloilo
Japanese Torpedo Bomber sighted over Medan
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Pamekasan
F-4 Lightning takes recon photos of Tulagi
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Pucheng
Japanese Aircraft sighted over 73rd PA Infantry Regiment
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Damar
CPT Moss, R. of AVG/2nd Sqn/B is credited with kill number 2
Japanese Fighter sighted over Changteh
Japanese Fighter Bomber sighted over 2nd Prov Chinese Corps
Japanese Fighter sighted over Djemadja
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Damar
F-4 Lightning takes recon photos of Tulagi
TF 357 snooped by Japanese Medium Bomber at 77,80 near Busuanga
TF 148 sights Japanese Recon at 46,58 near Port Blair
TF 239 snooped by Japanese Float Plane at 46,58 near Port Blair
TF 279 snooped by Japanese Patrol at 46,58 near Port Blair
TF 435 observes Japanese Aircraft at 54,43 near Cox's Bazar
TF 4 sights E14Y1 Glen at 121,157 near Tanna
Wirraway reports periscope wake at 92, 167 near Newcastle
B-26 Marauder sighting report: 8 Japanese ships at 112,160 near Noumea, speed 15, Moving Southwest
2LT Ricketts, F. of AVG/2nd Sqn/A is credited with kill number 12
Japanese Fighter sighted over Pamekasan
FO Michaelius H. of 2-VI.G.V is credited with kill number 6
2LT Foust W. of 2-Vl.G.IV is credited with kill number 5
2LT Foust W. of 2-Vl.G.IV attains ace status!!
2LT Marinus, A.J. of 1-Vl.G.IV is credited with kill number 7
FO Boonstoppel, P. of 1-Vl.G.IV is credited with kill number 2
2LT Olsen, G. of 3-Vl.G.IV is credited with kill number 8
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Enggano
C5M2 Babs sighted over 49th Chinese Corps
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Iloilo
Japanese Torpedo Bomber sighted over 81st PA Infantry Division
Japanese Fighter Bomber sighted over Endeh
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Changteh
Japanese Aircraft sighted over 2nd Prov Chinese Corps
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Lingga
Ki-46-II Dinah sighted over Tarakan Base Force
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Endeh
F-4 Lightning takes recon photos of Tulagi
Japanese Fighter sighted over Barisan KNIL Regiment
Japanese Fighter Bomber sighted over Enggano
Japanese Aircraft sighted over 21st Chinese/B Corps
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Cebu
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Endeh
Ki-15-II Babs sighted over Changteh
Japanese Recon sighted over Lingga
Japanese Recon sighted over 100th RN Base Force
Japanese Aircraft sighted over Gebe
F-4 Lightning takes recon photos of Tulagi
B-339D from 3-Vl.G.IV is written off
Hurricane IIb Trop from 3-VI.G.V is written off
Repairs completed on xAK Admiral Williams at Pearl Harbor, ship returned to service
Repairs completed on CL Helena at Pearl Harbor, ship returned to service
No additional repairs possible on xAP Ardent using currently assigned resources at Trincomalee
No additional repairs possible on xAK Bandra using currently assigned resources at Karachi
Repairs completed on CL Boise at Brisbane, ship returned to service
No additional repairs possible on AKE Governor Wright using currently assigned resources at Perth
No additional repairs possible on DM Sicard using currently assigned resources at Luganville
No additional repairs possible on AS Pelias using currently assigned resources at Luganville
No additional repairs possible on xAP Mariposa using currently assigned resources at Luganville
TF 420 does not have enough fuel to complete mission
Japanese forces CAPTURE Tacloban !!!
Moulmein expands port to size 2
Cox's Bazar expands airfield to size 4
Geraldton expands port to size 2
Sian expands airfield to size 5
AM Deloraine taken out of commission to begin refit at Geraldton
176th USAAF Base Force - some devices have been upgraded at Seattle
50th Tank Brigade - some devices have been upgraded at Chittagong
Delayed planes for the aircraft pool:
1 (2) x Fulmar II, 0 (4) x Hudson I, 2 (1) x B-18A Bolo, 6 (11) x P-36A Mohawk
Previous report of sinking of CL Tama incorrect. Intelligence reports ship is still in service
Repairs completed on SS Porpoise at Trincomalee, ship returned to service
Repairs completed on AVD Casco at Pearl Harbor, ship returned to service
Device(s) upgraded in Tasmania Base Force supplied from Burnie
Low garrison leads to damage and 1 VP loss from partisan attack at Changteh (81, 50)!
Henderson V. now available for reassignment
TB Otori is reported to have been sunk near Akyab on Apr 22, 1942
xAP Hikawa Maru is reported to have been sunk near Akyab on Apr 22, 1942
xAK Kina II arrives at Cape Town
xAP Dunedin Star arrives at Cape Town
YMS-98 arrives at Stockton
18th PG/6th PS arrives at Townsville

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Apr 22, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Akyab at 54,46, Range 1,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
TB Otori, Shell hits 5, and is sunk
xAP Hikawa Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk

Allied Ships
CL Emerald
CL Glasgow
DD Fortune
DD Griffin
DD Hotspur
DD Paladin
DD Panther

Poor visibility due to Thunderstorms with 42% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Thunderstorms and 42% moonlight: 2,000 yards
Range closes to 18,000 yards...
Range closes to 13,000 yards...
Range closes to 8,000 yards...
Range closes to 5,000 yards...
Range closes to 3,000 yards...
Range closes to 1,000 yards...
TB Otori engages CL Glasgow at 1,000 yards
xAP Hikawa Maru sunk by DD Paladin at 1,000 yards
DD Fortune engages TB Otori at 1,000 yards
Range increases to 2,000 yards
CL Glasgow engages TB Otori at 2,000 yards
DD Panther engages TB Otori at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
CL Glasgow engages TB Otori at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 5,000 yards
CL Glasgow engages TB Otori at 5,000 yards
DD Panther engages TB Otori at 5,000 yards
DD Hotspur engages TB Otori at 5,000 yards
Range increases to 7,000 yards
Massive explosion on TB Otori
TB Otori sunk by CL Glasgow at 7,000 yards
TB Otori sunk by CL Glasgow at 7,000 yards
Combat ends with last Japanese ship sunk...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Port Blair , at 46,58

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 60 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 21 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 3 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 9000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Port Blair , at 46,58

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 24

Allied aircraft
Fulmar II x 12
Sea Hurricane Ib x 8
Martlet II x 10
Buffalo I x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 15 destroyed, 1 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed by flak

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 5000 feet
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
No.800 Sqn FAA with Fulmar II (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 2 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
No.803 Sqn FAA with Fulmar II (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters to 3000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
No.880 Sqn FAA with Sea Hurricane Ib (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 27 minutes
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
No.488 Sqn RAF with Buffalo I (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 2 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters between 4000 and 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Port Blair , at 46,58

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 64 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 9

Allied aircraft
Fulmar II x 8
Sea Hurricane Ib x 3
Martlet II x 4
Buffalo I x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
No.803 Sqn FAA with Fulmar II (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 14 minutes
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
No.488 Sqn RAF with Buffalo I (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
No.800 Sqn FAA with Fulmar II (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
No.880 Sqn FAA with Sea Hurricane Ib (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Port Blair at 46,58

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 51 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 17 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 3

Allied aircraft
Fulmar II x 8
Sea Hurricane Ib x 3
Martlet II x 3
Buffalo I x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
No.803 Sqn FAA with Fulmar II (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Raid is overhead
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 17 minutes
No.488 Sqn RAF with Buffalo I (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Raid is overhead
No.800 Sqn FAA with Fulmar II (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Raid is overhead
No.880 Sqn FAA with Sea Hurricane Ib (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 65th Chinese Corps, at 79,57 (Kukong)

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 6
Ki-51 Sonia x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-51 Sonia: 1 damaged

Allied ground losses:
20 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
22 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing from 13000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 50 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Port Blair at 46,58

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 23 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 12

Allied aircraft
Fulmar II x 7
Sea Hurricane Ib x 3
Martlet II x 3
Buffalo I x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
No.803 Sqn FAA with Fulmar II (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters to 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
No.488 Sqn RAF with Buffalo I (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
No.800 Sqn FAA with Fulmar II (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 9000 , scrambling fighters to 6000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 11 minutes
No.880 Sqn FAA with Sea Hurricane Ib (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000 , scrambling fighters to 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 3rd New Chinese Corps, at 79,57 (Kukong)

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 6
Ki-51 Sonia x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-51 Sonia: 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing from 17000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 50 kg GP Bomb

Also attacking 65th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 3rd New Chinese Corps ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 32nd Group Army, at 79,57 (Kukong)

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-51 Sonia x 12

No Japanese losses

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Ki-51 Sonia bombing from 10000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 50 kg GP Bomb

Also attacking 65th Chinese Corps ...
Also attacking 32nd Group Army ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kweiyang , at 74,49

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 34 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-IIa Lily x 11

Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-IIa Lily: 3 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
AVG/2nd Sqn/B with H81-A3 (2 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Chungking , at 76,45

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 7

Allied aircraft
H81-A3 x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
AVG/2nd Sqn/A with H81-A3 (2 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 11000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Soerabaja , at 56,104

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 14
G4M1 Betty x 10

Allied aircraft
B-339D x 4
75A-7 Hawk x 3
Hurricane IIb Trop x 1
P-40E Warhawk x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
1-Vl.G.IV with 75A-7 Hawk (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 1 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 30 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
2-Vl.G.IV with P-40E Warhawk (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 11000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 11000.
Raid is overhead
3-Vl.G.IV with B-339D (1 airborne, 2 on standby, 1 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 19000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 32 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
2-VI.G.V with P-40E Warhawk (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 1 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 13000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
3-VI.G.V with Hurricane IIb Trop (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 24000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 24000.
Raid is overhead

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Pucheng , at 86,57

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 6 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 1 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 1 damaged

Runway hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Airfield Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Medan , at 46,76

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 11 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 3

No Japanese losses

Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 7000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Medan , at 46,76

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 4 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 1 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 27

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-IIa Sally: 1 damaged

Allied ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Port hits 2
Port fuel hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
27 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 7000 feet
Port Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Busuanga at 77,80

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 21
Ki-48-IIa Lily x 9

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
PT-34
PT-41

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x Ki-48-IIa Lily bombing from 18000 feet
Naval Attack: 4 x 100 kg SAP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Iloilo , at 79,84

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 29
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 20

No Japanese losses

Runway hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 14000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Kendari Garrison Battalion, at 68,105 (Kolaka)

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 18 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 21
Ki-48-IIa Lily x 20

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
15 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x Ki-48-IIa Lily bombing from 8000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 100 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 107th RAF Base Force, at 54,49 , near Prome

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 25 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 20
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 24

No Japanese losses

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x Ki-30 Ann bombing from 18000 feet
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 61st PA Infantry Division, at 79,84 (Iloilo)

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-IIa Sally x 20
Ki-43-Ic Oscar x 23

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
31 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x Ki-21-IIa Sally bombing from 11000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on North Sumatra Base Force, at 46,76 (Medan)

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 4 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 1 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-IIa Lily x 31

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-48-IIa Lily: 1 damaged

Allied ground losses:
35 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
31 x Ki-48-IIa Lily bombing from 8000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 100 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 61st PA Infantry Division, at 79,84 (Iloilo)

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 15 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-Ic Sally x 20

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
15 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x Ki-21-Ic Sally bombing from 16000 feet
Ground Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on 61st PA Infantry Division, at 79,84 (Iloilo)

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 14 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-IIa Lily x 31

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
7 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
31 x Ki-48-IIa Lily bombing from 16000 feet *
Ground Attack: 2 x 100 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Tacloban (81,85)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 603 troops, 6 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 21

Defending force 746 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 16

Japanese adjusted assault: 15

Allied adjusted defense: 3

Japanese assault odds: 5 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Tacloban !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), leaders(-), fatigue(-), morale(-)
experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), leaders(+), leaders(-)

Japanese ground losses:
50 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Allied ground losses:
403 casualties reported
Squads: 53 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 51 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Units destroyed 1

Assaulting units:
I./33rd Inf Regt

Defending units:
93rd PA Infantry Regiment

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Port Moresby (98,130)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 1948 troops, 23 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 98

Defending force 10384 troops, 123 guns, 29 vehicles, Assault Value = 346

Japanese ground losses:
116 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 13 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
48th Naval Guard Unit
Yokosuka Assault SNLF

Defending units:
8th Australian Division
30th Australian Brigade
Port Moresby Brigade
15th RAAF Base Force

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Akyab (54,45)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 570 troops, 56 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 163

Defending force 2117 troops, 23 guns, 10 vehicles, Assault Value = 114

Japanese ground losses:
11 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Assaulting units:
15th/1st Punjab Battalion
10th Burma Rifles Battalion
1st Patiala Lancers Regiment
23rd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment
3rd Hyderabad Base Force
104th RAF Base Force
4th NW Frontier Base Force
2nd Peshawar Base Force
1st Indian Coastal Artillery Regiment
24th Indian Mountain Gun Regiment

Defending units:
146th Infantry Regiment

(in reply to Alpha77)

Post #: 3

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/6/2021 10:37:01 AM

Ambassador

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If the AI wants Canton, let it have it, it is blindly following a script. All you do there contributes to breaking it. If you found no unit there when you reconquered the island, it�s most probably because the follow-up script to bring support troops wasn�t active yet, and odds are high that those are actually in the transports heading to Canton.

(in reply to Alpha77)

Post #: 4

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/6/2021 12:45:16 PM

Alpha77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

If the AI wants Canton, let it have it, it is blindly following a script. All you do there contributes to breaking it. If you found no unit there when you reconquered the island, it�s most probably because the follow-up script to bring support troops wasn�t active yet, and odds are high that those are actually in the transports heading to Canton.

Well we need to at least pretend, there is a war going on, with your logic one should also do not defend Manila, Soerabaya, Singapore, Rangoon etc. So what do you propose, set all troops at these bases to rest or in strat mod "to not break the AI" ?

Also where do you draw the line, if the AI wants PH ship everyone out and let it have it (and it wants PH sometimes as I have seen raiders going there plus also in a case a small "invasion" fleet. Shall I ship out my 4 units (one of these a small div) at PM too? And withdraw all fighters too..

Also it is often recommended in the forum to not engage the KB early on, would it not more be a mistake which helps the AI to actually engage them? Well that did not happen but in theory.

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Post #: 5

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/6/2021 2:07:39 PM

Ambassador

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Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline

As long as you don�t bring more troops to Soerabaja or Manila, you can trust the AI to conqu�te them with the troops scripted by Andy Mac. But you can indeed break the AI with a vigorous defence there, like a fortress Java or fortress Palembang, or even Singapore. In fact, I once let it loose on a stock Scen #2 game, on Very Hard, and kept Singapore, Sumatra and Java quite easily, wrecking the IJN, and I could start sending (very heavily escorted) resupply convoys to Luzon, where I had managed to hold the Manila/Clark/Bataan triangle, as soon as March �42. Let�s just say war was really short.

But in the small islands in the Pacific, the AI can�t react very well to your moves, so if you defend those islands, it�ll keep sending the troops scripted to go there, and you get a field day on lightly escorted transport and amphibious TF, and by �43 you�ll only have to face an IJN composed of a couple DD�s and TB�s..

The advice on not tangling with KB in the early game is mostly when it�s still grouped, and in PBEM. Sadly, the AI has a tendency to split it up, and have CV TF with one to three carriers (and few escorts), which you can easily take on with the four CVs you�ll have soon regrouped, and decently escorted. Especially as they tend to have predictable movements.

So, yes, if you want to wage a pseudo-historical second part of the war (the reconquest of the Pacific) without it being a total pushover, do a full Sir Robin.

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Post #: 6

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/6/2021 2:45:19 PM

Andy Mac

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From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline

I wish I had never told the AI to take Canton.

But I think there is a separate point to be discussed.

The AI actually operates more historically than players

In 1942 how many times did the allies have all their carriers together for one battle....

Once Midway v 4 of 6 IJN Carriers

Normally it was one TF v one TF 2 0r 3 v 2 or 3

If you act with hindsight and concentrate 5 or 6 allied carriers into one hex when the AI is designed to play more reasonably and have 2 or 4 per operation what do you expect ?

Andy

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Post #: 7

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/6/2021 2:46:21 PM

Andy Mac

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Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline

In PBEM both players create Deathstars in 42 plus maybe a few minor raiders thats not how the war went until late 43

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Post #: 8

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/6/2021 2:54:07 PM

Andy Mac

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline

oops

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Post #: 9

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/6/2021 4:07:37 PM

Alpha77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

In PBEM both players create Deathstars in 42 plus maybe a few minor raiders thats not how the war went until late 43

Totally agree if you take the real war as example.

(Not about the game in this thread:)
In PBM I faced all American AND British carriers in the same general theater IIRC. Also Revenge BBs etc. near Port Moresby. Need to check sunk list if I remember indeed correctly. When many of his CVs and some bigger warships were sunk and his invasion failed - I believe in quite historic timespan (7/8/9 1942) the Allied player in the PBM threw the towel. Luckily I found another player for the Allied side - but he also uses British ships in the Salomones area. This is not to "blame" him, there is no rule in the game he can not do this, but it is also not "historic". But it could perhaps have been possible that the Brits would send their ships there I guess...

However as I understand it, the main reason only 3 Allied CVs were in the famous battles was, more were not available at the time.

Later in the war the US (and guess Japan if it could, would too..) concentrated their CVs just like in the game it seems. From Wiki (Battle of Phillipines):

"The American 5th Fleet covering the landing comprised 15 big carriers and 956 planes, plus 28 battleships and cruisers, and 69 destroyers. "

I would call this a real life death star

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/6/2021 4:09:50 PM >

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 10

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/6/2021 4:11:01 PM

MBF

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That event is after the Late 1943 that Mr.Mac references ;-)

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Post #: 11

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/6/2021 4:35:24 PM

Alpha77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MBF

That event is after the Late 1943 that Mr.Mac references ;-)

OOPSy too tired to read correctly. But I want to confirm that Andy is right, somehow the AI is indeed more "historic" then the humans.

However the point is moot as IF any side had more carriers in service they would concentrate them for crucial battles. Allies more than Japanese I guess, as they had often strange plans with assets going to strange places to as "distraction" from the main effort. In theory ok, but goes against the Schwerpunkt rule..or not?

I ran the turn, outcome posted later. I wonder if I can go back to a former safe but believe I overwrote it - to take the advise and let the AI just have what it wants there. (Oh this is a spoiler for the movie to play, nope AI did not get the island)

However then my CVs are totally unmolested and will head to the Salomones to kick ass there. When I know where the KB is, in this area is not much danger anymore. AI has only a somewhat big base at Lunga, a small one at Tulagi, a med one at Shortlands and a big one at Rabaul the other places in between are still dots. From Rabaul to Lunga is a long way and AI might not escort it�s Betties so a slaughter would happen there then anyway (in my humble forecast of events

)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/6/2021 5:41:29 PM >

(in reply to MBF)

Post #: 12

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/6/2021 7:28:57 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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What the game does not model completely is the wear and tear on the crews. In game you can keep a ship in action for a year or more. IRL, crews had to decompress somewhere for more than just a day or two. That affects the ability to concentrate all your carriers if you have a series of overlapping operations - you need to keep some carriers to support the operations instead of all or nothing commitment to some of them.

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Post #: 13

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/7/2021 1:03:14 AM

Ian R

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Also it is often recommended in the forum to not engage the KB early on, would it not more be a mistake which helps the AI to actually engage them? Well that did not happen but in theory.

In April 42, I would concentrate on first round of AAA/radar upgrades, training the air groups, and waiting until June when the TBFs arrive.

But if I scrabbled together whatever was available to take on an IJN CV TF (which probably* only has two CVs or equivalent airgroup numbers of CVLs) I would not have 5 CVs in one TF - I would have 2,2 and 1 in 3 TFs, with two following the one with lowest numerical designation. Each one would have at least 4 CA/Ls and a a dozen DDs, and more is better. That way you should get waves of strikes that a more likely to be co-ordinated. Some well skilled SBDs on Canton would also be a good idea.

[*Once the KB breaks up it never reassembles - the AI does give the 'primary' IJN CVTF about 4 CVs, but usually they are smaller.]

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Post #: 14

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/7/2021 1:15:23 AM

Alpha77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

In April 42, I would concentrate on first round of AAA/radar upgrades, training the air groups, and waiting until June when the TBFs arrive.

But if I scrabbled together whatever was available to take on an IJN CV TF (which probably* only has two CVs or equivalent airgroup numbers of CVLs) I would not have 5 CVs in one TF - I would have 2,2 and 1 in 3 TFs, with two following the one with lowest numerical designation. Each one would have at least 4 CA/Ls and a a dozen DDs, and more is better. That way you should get waves of strikes that a more likely to be co-ordinated. Some well skilled SBDs on Canton would also be a good idea.

[*Once the KB breaks up it never reassembles - the AI does give the 'primary' IJN CVTF about 4 CVs, but usually they are smaller.]

99% my thoughts, - when it was a PBM - especially the TBFs the Devastator is just a poor plane with low range and their torps hit almost nothing or dud. Had them put to bombs the result would be better I guess.

The 1% I do not agree is the splitting up the CVs, I had bad experience with that as the Japanese, I set a smaller CVL force up up to follow the main one, but only the main one reacted to enemy CVs leaving the smaller CVL one 1 hex behind but on one of the CVLs was an important CAP force which did not participate at all. I still won the battle but prob had lost 1-2 ships less of they had stayed together..

..however in this case it was different anyways, I post the result tomorrow..decided to go "all in"

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/7/2021 1:29:55 AM >

(in reply to Ian R)

Post #: 15

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/7/2021 1:31:01 AM

Ian R

Posts: 3420
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From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

You should have set reaction to zero, and left Halsey (or his IJN equivalent) dockside.

"Always the farmer, never the dog", as the saying goes around here.

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Post #: 16

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/7/2021 1:47:37 AM

Alpha77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

You should have set reaction to zero, and left Halsey (or his IJN equivalent) dockside.

"Always the farmer, never the dog", as the saying goes around here.

Reaction is always zero for me with CVs but the game code in certain situations overrides this. I can not remember who was the CO of the TF but will have an eye on the aggro rating in the future.. it for sure happened with Tanaka as he chased some smallish ships further than ordered even if almost out of ammo...

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/7/2021 1:49:48 AM >

(in reply to Ian R)

Post #: 17

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/7/2021 3:52:14 AM

Ian R

Posts: 3420
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Carriers will "special" react 1 hex towards enemy carriers to engage. That is in the manual. But they should all do that if the conditions are fulfilled.

I always put the slower Wasp in the lead TF that the others are following. Likewise, if using the 28 knt BBs in the air combat TFs, the lead TF gets one.

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Post #: 18

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/7/2021 9:24:57 AM

janh

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Joined: 6/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Well we need to at least pretend, there is a war going on, with your logic one should also do not defend Manila, Soerabaya, Singapore, Rangoon etc. So what do you propose, set all troops at these bases to rest or in strat mod "to not break the AI" ?

Also where do you draw the line, if the AI wants PH ship everyone out and let it have it (and it wants PH sometimes as I have seen raiders going there plus also in a case a small "invasion" fleet. Shall I ship out my 4 units (one of these a small div) at PM too? And withdraw all fighters too..

Also it is often recommended in the forum to not engage the KB early on, would it not more be a mistake which helps the AI to actually engage them? Well that did not happen but in theory.

I have to concurr with Ambassodor and strongly recommend you to leave Canton (largely) uncontested to AI. This kind of situation like Canton is par excellence suited to break AI -- win the first naval battle, defeat the CV, put heavy LBA and ground forces on the island and you can watch AI bring (insufficient) troops to beach in small subsequent waves to be taken captive right away. And you can watch AI come up piecemeal with small, insufficienty escorted amphib or transport TFs, or poor combat TFs. After two months running this script, AI will have impaled much of its naval assests and tons of xAK/xAP here, leaving the rest of the game till 45 being just dull.

AI functionality in AE is just to limited to have events interact with running scripts, modify or cancel them or reassign new assets to it (from other running scripts). It just won't remember next day who or what it faced at Canton the previous day. Better leave Canton to AI for the sake of a longer fun game...

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Post #: 19

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/7/2021 9:33:29 AM

Ian R

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Canton is across the 'historical assault line' - I can see why Andymac thinks it might have been better to leave it out.

On the other hand, all my play now is as Allies in the ironman 3 universe. If I manage to get things sufficiently in order to be bale to contest Canton, it's a bonus.

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Post #: 20

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/7/2021 11:00:42 AM

Ambassador

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From: Brussels, Belgium
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Canton is across the 'historical assault line' - I can see why Andymac thinks it might have been better to leave it out.

On the other hand, all my play now is as Allies in the ironman 3 universe. If I manage to get things sufficiently in order to be bale to contest Canton, it's a bonus.

The ��Insanity�� tier ? Yeah, every dirty trick is needed there. A bit too much science-fictionney for my taste, though.

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Post #: 21

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/7/2021 5:48:39 PM

Alpha77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Canton is across the 'historical assault line' - I can see why Andymac thinks it might have been better to leave it out.

On the other hand, all my play now is as Allies in the ironman 3 universe. If I manage to get things sufficiently in order to be bale to contest Canton, it's a bonus.

The ��Insanity�� tier ? Yeah, every dirty trick is needed there. A bit too much science-fictionney for my taste, though.

That is the problem with these Ironman scens and another mod I found here (when people revealed what the Japanese get more in this one it seemed also quite far fetched, eg. more oil fields - well that is historical quite questionable, one can not just drill a hole in the ground and hurrrahhh the oil comes out. To be fair the Allies also get more ships in this mod I mean. Another thing was that tonnage of some of the ships were too low for the power they had, I mean the "phantasy" ones).

Scen2 however is historical posibble, some more stockpiles yes, the Shimakaze class build yes, more factories yes, 1 more army group yes..
if Japan had prepared better already in the early 30ties I guess this can be justified. But not phantasy major ships - cause the amount and size of shipyards is limited (slipways building is a huge enterprise if you want BBs and CVs there) and also not oilfields appearing from thin air...

I made the right decission this is war, Canton represents a sting in Allied sealanes in this game Japan did not use it, but normally they would put search and smaller attack planes there which forces the US shipping lines further south, leading to longer travels and for the player more clicks and waypoints fiddling etc.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/7/2021 5:50:33 PM >

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Post #: 22

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/7/2021 6:10:15 PM

Alpha77

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Lots of knowledgeable people in this thread so I ask an OT question, just working on my PBM turn (which I always slow with not only cause lots of ship juggling, but I am also quite clueless about a strategy for Japan from mid 43 onwards, so I feel often "lost").

I noticed this PB it says endurance 6000 which is max but only 160 fuel which says is only 22% is this a display error or do I miss something? Thanks.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/7/2021 6:30:29 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/8/2021 3:17:51 AM

BBfanboy

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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

Lots of knowledgeable people in this thread so I ask an OT question, just working on my PBM turn (which I always slow with not only cause lots of ship juggling, but I am also quite clueless about a strategy for Japan from mid 43 onwards, so I feel often "lost").

I noticed this PB it says endurance 6000 which is max but only 160 fuel which says is only 22% is this a display error or do I miss something? Thanks.

The endurance in the ship screen is the designed maximum endurance. To see how far it will go with the 22% fuel it actually has you need to look at the TF screen.

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(in reply to Alpha77)

Post #: 24

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/8/2021 4:16:09 AM

Ian R

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

I think the answer may be 33.

(I am tempted to say 42

, nonetheless.)

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(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 25

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/8/2021 3:00:50 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

Interesting thread.

As someone who has been playing against the AI since the Uncommon Valor days I can say that it is rather easy to ambush the AI at Canton and I did so in many, many games until I finally realized that seeking to overwhelm the AI during the initial expansion quickly breaks the AI and results in a game that become so lopsided by the middle of '43 that it isn't worth playing.

As I stated, I have been playing this game engine almost exclusively for close on to twenty years now and AE since its release, and I only succeeded in getting a game worth playing past '43 last year!

It has taken years of effort to learn to restrain myself and allow the AI to have some success.

Moving up to Ironman grade scenarios also helps tremendously in providing a platform for a viable later war AI.

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(in reply to Ian R)

Post #: 26

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/9/2021 10:28:07 AM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

Hans! Good to see you back. I had fears for your health.

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Post #: 27

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/9/2021 4:29:28 PM

Alpha77

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
The endurance in the ship screen is the designed maximum endurance. To see how far it will go with the 22% fuel it actually has you need to look at the TF screen.

Don�t want to "nickpick" (sp?) or question more knowledgeable gamers but you are mistaken. These numbers should update also on the ship screen not only in the TF one. Eg. see here another PB in the same fleet.

585 fuel which is 81% of the max gives us endurance 4909 (of 6000 max) = 122 hexes at cruise. So the 1st one can not be correct.

Only 22% fuel can not be 6000 endurance (=max)

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< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/9/2021 4:35:22 PM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 28

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/10/2021 5:01:41 AM

Alpha77

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline

So here results of the CV action, I guess many words are not needed, you can gain the info from the combat reports if not just ask...

First IJN CLs bombards Canton for minor damage, then the KB sends a weak strike:

Morning Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 155,139

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 30 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34
B5N2 Kate x 58
D3A1 Val x 56

Allied aircraft
F4F-3A Wildcat x 22
F4F-3 Wildcat x 45
F4F-4 Wildcat x 49

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 6 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 20 destroyed, 3 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed by flak
D3A1 Val: 11 destroyed, 13 damaged
D3A1 Val: 1 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3A Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F4F-4 Wildcat: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Hornet
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 1
CV Enterprise
CV Yorktown, Torpedo hits 1
DD Dunlap
DD Craven
CV Lexington
DD Henley
DD Walke

Morning Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 153,143

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 18 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 74

Allied aircraft
F2A-3 Buffalo x 15
F4F-3 Wildcat x 40
SB2U-3 Vindicator x 17
SBD-2 Dauntless x 34
SBD-1 Dauntless x 17
SBD-3 Dauntless x 143
TBD-1 Devastator x 56

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F2A-3 Buffalo: 5 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 13 destroyed
SBD-2 Dauntless: 3 damaged
SBD-1 Dauntless: 2 destroyed, 2 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 3 destroyed, 6 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 2 destroyed by flak
TBD-1 Devastator: 1 destroyed
TBD-1 Devastator: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 7, on fire
CV Akagi, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
CV Soryu, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
CV Hiryu, Bomb hits 6, heavy fires
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 2, on fire
BB Kirishima, Bomb hits 1
DD Sawakaze, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Kuroshio
CA Kinugasa, Bomb hits 1
CL Nagara
CA Nachi, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Natsushio
CL Tatsuta, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Oyashio
DD Yugiri
DD Hokaze
DD Hatsukaze

Morning Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 155,139

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 36 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 13

Allied aircraft
F4F-3A Wildcat x 15
F4F-3 Wildcat x 35
F4F-4 Wildcat x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 7 destroyed

No Allied losses

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 155,139

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 77 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 28 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
B5N2 Kate x 22
D3A1 Val x 52

Allied aircraft
F4F-3A Wildcat x 21
F4F-3 Wildcat x 33
F4F-4 Wildcat x 37

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 8 destroyed, 1 damaged
D3A1 Val: 19 destroyed, 5 damaged
D3A1 Val: 3 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Yorktown
CV Lexington
CV Enterprise
CV Saratoga
DD Selfridge
CV Hornet, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 153,143

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 21 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 17

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 7
SBD-2 Dauntless x 17
SBD-3 Dauntless x 89
TBD-1 Devastator x 55

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 2 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 3 destroyed, 20 damaged
TBD-1 Devastator: 4 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Zuikaku, on fire
CV Shokaku, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Arashi, Bomb hits 1
DD Yugumo, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CA Nachi, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Haguro, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires
DD Hatsukaze
DD Oyashio, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Yugiri
DD Kuroshio, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CV Kaga, on fire, heavy damage

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/10/2021 5:02:12 AM >

(in reply to Alpha77)

Post #: 29

RE: Canton Carnage or not ? What would you do (CV battl... - 2/10/2021 5:07:24 AM

Alpha77

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline

Next day:

One (1) Nav guards lands at Canton and is crushed then some "mop up" by the Americans:

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 151,142

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 37 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 2

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 24
SBD-3 Dauntless x 49

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Nokaze
CL Tatsuta, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 153,143

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 4,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Allied aircraft
SBD-3 Dauntless x 33
TBD-1 Devastator x 13

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 8 damaged
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese Ships
CL Tenryu
xAK Shanghai Maru, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Akagisan Maru, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk
DD Tatsukaze

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Canton Island at 151,142

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 39 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 2

Allied aircraft
SBD-3 Dauntless x 18

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 4 damaged

Japanese Ships
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Nokaze
CL Tatsuta, and is sunk
CV Zuikaku, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Allies lost 2 ships, both cargos hit by bombs from search planes...All US CVs still operable..on day 3 Kaga hit by 3 more bombs plus 1 CL, 1 DD, 1 AK from landing force sunk.

IJN CVs moved in the base hex (see pic), asfaik this should have impeded their ops as well on day 1 bad weather over their fleet helped the US. Zeros were first good on CAP but suddenly began to leave the battle from all kinds of fails so strike planes did not suffer so much.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/10/2021 5:14:18 AM >

(in reply to Alpha77)

Post #: 30

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