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No-go upgrades ? - 2/10/2021 5:33:11 PM

Oddball67

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Is there somewhere a list of upgrades you should avoid to do (and thus stick with previous stuff) ?

Speaking of ships mainly (i read somewhere that there'a a DD class that loses too much speed in the upgrade, but can't remember which), but there might be planes which as worse than the previous ones too ?

PS : both sides welcome

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/11/2021 1:23:14 AM

Ian R

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It's more a question of choose, rather than necessarily avoid.

Examples -

Would you prefer the RN's E/F/G/H to continue as DD's, or,if they are going to be doing convoy escort work, is it better to take the upgrade to (slower) DE configuration, to have the additional ASW clout?

There are various not-US allied cruiser upgrades where float planes are removed, torpedo tubes are landed, and main armament is swapped out for more AAA. There will come a point when these older ships are not fighting surface actions against IJN cruisers any more, and that 'escort' fit out is more useful. Torpedoes on deck, and float planes on catapults, are conducive to starting fires. You decide when it makes sense to reconfigure.

There are a number of escort ship upgrades which don't look like upgrades if you look at the bare ASW #. You need to drill down a bit into the detail to make an informed choice. Yes, the ASW 'rating' might go from 8 to 7, but when you look closely you find that the two Mousetrap projectors in the bow have been replaced by one much more effective Hedgehog ASW mortar. Hedgehog is hard to replenish (it has a big rearm cost) but if the escort is working the SFO-PH, or SFO-SYD routes, that is not really an issue. You choose.

Would you prefer the USS Argonaut as a minelayer, or an SST? That is an easy one IMHO, because all your fleet boats can lay mines of a type you receive a continuing supply of. Whereas SST's are like hens' teeth. And the radar is important for avoiding trouble.

Most choices have their pros and cons.

Sub-topic - USN slow BB conversions.

Different upgrade paths apply to various members of the same class, and give you the historical outcome. EG, there was one BB Captain who didn't bother with the proffered upgrade to 5"/L38 weapons late in the war, but instead had the number of 5"/L25s doubled. It was his ship - he signed for it, after all.

The game gives you alternative conversion paths for such ships that will homogenise the class. You need to study the conversion and upgrade paths in the editor to see what is possible here. In one instance there is a path along the lines of

- take the first upgrade

- do not take the second upgrade, because it negatives later options

- take the conversion option that is offered a few months later, which aligns that ship with one of its sister's upgrade paths

- upgrade again after that and ignore any further conversion possibilities.

If you want the historical progression, just take the upgrades on offer, but at some point you lose the options. Personally, I prefer my old BB's to get the full West Virginia style AAA modernisation*, even though you buy into some 150 day yard periods that otherwise might be avoided.

[*As far as possible given the available conversions in the scenario.]

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/11/2021 9:06:03 AM

Oddball67

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Thanks for all those informations.

But all i usually see is the next upgrade, i didn't even suspect there were different paths depending on the upgrades (thought it was more keep going or stop) : how do you see the full upgrade paths, and the dead-ends ?

In your example, does the second upgrade specify it will negate something ?

edit : OK found the pathes on witp tracker. thanks again !

< Message edited by Oddball67 -- 2/11/2021 10:08:21 AM >

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/11/2021 10:34:14 AM

Ian R

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I don't use tracker.

I open the editor and look at the ship class upgrades and conversions, and make a flow chart.

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/11/2021 10:57:22 AM

ITAKLinus

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I confess I keep CL Oi and sister ship as per 7th Dec in order not to make them lose the long lance battery. It's probably sub-optimal, but I love those two guys, they saved my day many times even in late game (surprisingly).

In terms of conversions, there are many different streams of thought I dare to say.
Personally, I like to get more APDs and I do not convert the old DDs to Es.
I keep the Nagara class extremely safe since it becomes a CLAA (180 days starting from 01/01/1944). Weak bunch of CLAAs, but Japanese don't have any better and therefore...
Also, I do keep one CS (the slowest one) not converted to CVL in order to do FP resizing, but I admit it's not such a big deal.

Instead of using the CS to resize, you can use the converted BBs. The hybrid is damn bad, but it's better than nothin in my humble opinion. I equip them with Rex and use those FFs as low level CAP with the slow CVs.

Broadly speaking, there is also a point in not converting the 15-knts xAKs to AKs. AKs are quite useful, but the xAK version can carry 300 OIL/FUEL and I deem it a relevant thing if you routinely use these ships to carry OIL/FUEL around. I don't, but each player has his/her logistics.

I don't convert TKs to AOs since they lose loading space. Again, it's up to your logsitics setup and game situation: if losses in the AO department have been heavy, it is worth to convert them.

Always produce and convert Std-... class xAKs: they convert to small and useful TKs (since June 1942? I do not remember the precise date without the game in front of me).

I probably have one billion more stuff in my mind, but this is what it came to my mind

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/11/2021 2:27:34 PM

Jellicoe

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I have to say that when it comes to RN DDs I do like to keep the S class (if still afloat) in their original light destroyer configuration. Eminently expendable ships that can pack an ugly torpedo punch. C&D class cruisers also fall into this category for me. Effective speed bumps against IJN convoys off Burma and elsewhere

For the E-F class destroyer upgrades I normally go for the DE option. A British ASW unit with a value of 11 is normally an absolute killer and by then the N's, Q's and R's are pretty much all available for the Eastern fleet

I normally convert all of the US slow BB's as like Ian R above who wouldn't want that AA output and I think they look cool too!

I have normally kept Argonaut as a minelayer as I enjoy dropping off 50 mines in one go but that probably speaks as much about my lack of thinking about SST usage as anything else

Clemson and Wickes all get the APD treatment straight out of the blocks to provide early war ASW although I have also experimented with the DE option for some of the Asiatic squadron survivors on occasion

Yet to try Japan and the conversion madness that exists there!

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/11/2021 3:01:00 PM

RangerJoe

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I keep the four pipers on destroyer duty until there are enough other destroyers plus they get more training and thus experience which they would not get as APDs. Then I convert them to APDs for convoy and amphibious escort duties as well as Fast Transport duties. If they get heavily damaged and will take a long time to repair before they get highly trained, then they become APDs.

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/12/2021 2:44:48 PM

mind_messing

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I don't recall any Allied upgrades that I'd consider a no-go.

For a Japan, there are a couple.

A fair few of the IJN fleet DD's lose a 12.7cm turret (and thus a 33% reduction in firepower) at some point in exchange for more AA. If you plan on a lot of surface combat, it may worthwhile to postpone this (possibly indefinitely) but you do lose out on improved depth charges in the main.

Also to consider are some of the capital ship upgrades. Anything that adds the AA rockets at the expense of other weapons systems is to be avoided, the AA rockets are effectively useless.

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/12/2021 7:32:43 PM

Alpha77

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12/42 update Kagero = no go ? Loses twin 12,7 and torp reloads for some 25mm and T2 DCs. For SF combat ship is weakened also for high AA

1/43 Fubuki = Loses twin 12,7 AND range for some 25mm, T95/2 DCs

8/43 Kongo, loses nothing for some 25mm and AS radar. The question for this weak update is: Is it even worth the fuel to send them back. Well if the ships are near a yard or were damaged then a no brainer. But if ships operate eg. in the south around Rabaul uses a lot of fuel for the voyage

Hybrid BBs conversions... Highly doubt this is worth it, but like to hear other opinions. One also needs to account for the time in the yard and ships out of action for this time.

TK->AO.. the more worthy. But only if you have not lost many TKs. In fact Japan can have a surplus of TKs. THis is when you have shipped out most of the oil. Most oil bases have also refs.. meaning there will be not much oil to ship, meaning you need less TKs to ships mostly fuel.

AO can get to 50 exp and has more guns..quite worthwhile. More exp = less danger to sink, can manouvre better. The added guns can perhaps help to shoot at surfaced subs and planes. And with probably better hit % as with TKs (max 25 exp)

For the same reason also xAK Yusen/Lima-> AK can be good, if you do not need the liquid capacity and can live with less cargo space. You get now a better amphib unit, plus more guns plus also the AK classes get an update in 1/44 for even more guns (yes weak 13/25mm but still MORE is good right?)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/12/2021 7:52:46 PM >

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/12/2021 8:28:49 PM

jdsrae

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For the IJN DDs the earlier upgrades are needed to have any chance of getting radars.
The type 2 depth charges are also the best they get.

Another role for the BB hybrids is to be bomb and torpedo magnets within air combat task forces.
Every allied DB or TB that targets them is one less chance at a flat top.
The long time in the yard can be a bonus as they aren�t burning fuel while they are there!

< Message edited by jdsrae -- 2/12/2021 8:31:02 PM >

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/14/2021 3:56:15 AM

rustysi

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quote:

Hybrid BBs conversions... Highly doubt this is worth it, but like to hear other opinions. One also needs to account for the time in the yard and ships out of action for this time.

Well consider you can load 22 Rex's per BB conversion, that'll give you a total of 88 more fighters total when all four are done. Are they great fighters, no, but they better than none. Add to that the BB's heavy AA guns are doubled, and those are what matters. And as said they are a plane magnet. So, are they worth it? Its up to the player, and their style of play.

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/14/2021 4:21:18 AM

Ian R

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Do the Rex's fly CAP when floatplanes are grounded (which appears to be more then 50% of the time)?

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/14/2021 4:38:11 AM

rustysi

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I doubt it, but I haven't gotten to the conversions' completion as yet. And getting involve with MWiF isn't getting me any closer.

TBH though it seems to me that when the weather is bad that carrier ops are curtailed as well. Maybe not to the same degree, but are somewhat less.

So, I can't say with any certainty one way or the other.

At any rate the BB's heavy AAA is still doubled (through the conversion), and they are magnets for planes.

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/14/2021 8:20:02 PM

Alpha77

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Do the Rex's fly CAP when floatplanes are grounded (which appears to be more then 50% of the time)?

I had an CS with me flying Rufes on CAP and not a single one showed up in the battle - so I am assuming the same risk is there with the BBs and Rex. Also one needs to find 4 airgroups for them or not ? Or will they appear in the conversions?

Most floatplne units do not upgrade to float fighters. Do normal fighter units, if yes this will rob you of 4 much more stronger units at land service...

Also a full BB even in 44 presents a danger if you send it in to Allied landing zones, it might even survive normal bomb attacks. But I will check the stats of conversion again and see if this can still be done.

Edit, so they lose 4x36cm and all 16x14cm, for 8x12,7 and the floatplnes.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/14/2021 8:35:59 PM >

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/14/2021 9:54:10 PM

rustysi

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quote:

Also one needs to find 4 airgroups for them or not ? Or will they appear in the conversions?

There are a number of float planes on board Japanese AV's, and maybe some of the CS's (possibly the two whose air groups don't convert with the vessel) that'll convert to Rufe's, and then to Rex's. Some may convert to something else latter, and a number of them will withdraw, but I looked a while ago and IIRC there are four that can be left to fill the BB coversions. Coincidence? I think not in this game.

Now does the mean you should do the conversions... ???

Again your style of play may say no. Fine, myself I'd like to try.

Leave no stone unturned, so to speak.

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/14/2021 9:58:04 PM

rustysi

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quote:

Also a full BB even in 44 presents a danger if you send it in to Allied landing zones,

Against a good opponent I do not see this happening.

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/14/2021 10:04:25 PM

rustysi

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IRL the Japanese intended to modify some Judy dive bombers to be able to take off from these ships. They then would have had to land at a land base.

Just a bit of trivia.

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/16/2021 2:42:44 PM

Andy Mac

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1st Burma Div - upgrades to a training Div losing about 2/3 AV historically accurate but.....

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/16/2021 2:50:40 PM

ITAKLinus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Do the Rex's fly CAP when floatplanes are grounded (which appears to be more then 50% of the time)?

As far as I can tell, my 4 BBs fly their Rex complement in the same manner as float planes, meaning that if one is grounded, the other one is as well. And vice-versa.

I have been very satisfied with the conversion. More AA and 80 more planes for low-CAP. It takes a lot of time and they do not do wonders, but I find those old BBs rather useful in their new role. In the intended one, they're simply too old: slow, undergunned, etcetc. Easy prey for allies SCTFs.

Now, don't get me wrong, the conversion is not going to give you anything relevant, it is just a way to give some usefulness to those ships, otherwise doomed to stay in port until caught and sunk.

There are enough groups to man them all, btw. Some Rufe groups withdraws somewhere in early-44 but you have some more coming in in like April '44, so it's not a big deal. I have also converted a fighter group to FFs, since I found FFs quite useful along the game.

Just like with Nagara CLAA: they're not good ships, but their conversion makes them be better than nothing.

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/17/2021 5:56:36 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I don't recall any Allied upgrades that I'd consider a no-go.

For a Japan, there are a couple.

A fair few of the IJN fleet DD's lose a 12.7cm turret (and thus a 33% reduction in firepower) at some point in exchange for more AA. If you plan on a lot of surface combat, it may worthwhile to postpone this (possibly indefinitely) but you do lose out on improved depth charges in the main.

Also to consider are some of the capital ship upgrades. Anything that adds the AA rockets at the expense of other weapons systems is to be avoided, the AA rockets are effectively useless.

From memory, I didn't do the Kagero upgrades. They lost something important (torpedoes maybe?) in exchange for more anemic AA.

I did the Fubuki upgrades because depth charges that can actually hit the submarines are important.

I do at least 2 BB conversions for the float planes. They are useful, whether for Jakes or Rufes. Never tried out the float plane Georges (Rex), nor the Seiran (they don't have sorties so I don't think these are useful).

I converted some Std-A xAKs to TKs. Not many, but some.

I never did much if any in the way of TK->AO conversions. If I did, it would've just been the big fast ones. I don't find the time spent on AOs that were slow to be of much use - if they can't keep pace with the fleet, then they're not useful to me. You don't need many AOs as Japan anyway.

Note that AOs can be put into amphibious TFs and so can be used to unload fuel at small/tiny ports without needing to dock.

I converted every single xAK->AK that was eligible. The unload rate bonus in amphibious mode is worth it.

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/17/2021 6:34:22 AM

CaptBeefheart

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On the Allied side there's a Fletcher upgrade where you lose half of your torpedoes but gain quite a bit of AA. There are probably similar upgrades with other DD classes. At that point, you have to assess the likelihood of surface actions vs. air attack. If the IJN still has a decent surface fleet you might postpose those upgrades.

Another thing to note is for your Liberty ships I believe in May 1943 (or thereabouts) you lose the option to convert them from xAK to xAP. Usually it's useful to convert as many as possible by that time as a lot more unconvertible xAKs will show up later.

Cheers,
CB

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RE: No-go upgrades ? - 2/17/2021 8:27:35 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptBeefheart

On the Allied side there's a Fletcher upgrade where you lose half of your torpedoes but gain quite a bit of AA. There are probably similar upgrades with other DD classes. At that point, you have to assess the likelihood of surface actions vs. air attack. If the IJN still has a decent surface fleet you might postpose those upgrades.

Another thing to note is for your Liberty ships I believe in May 1943 (or thereabouts) you lose the option to convert them from xAK to xAP. Usually it's useful to convert as many as possible by that time as a lot more unconvertible xAKs will show up later.

Cheers,
CB

June 1943 is when it occurs, and the ships that arrive in June 1943 are already 6/1943 Liberty class, so do not have the ability to convert.

I also convert every single one that arrives before then. It means I am somewhat short on xAKs in the eastern Pacific until late 1943, but it's better than not having enough xAPs later in the war.

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