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Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 2:51:36 PM   
Podolano


Posts: 35
Joined: 5/25/2020
From: Sao Paulo Brazil
Status: offline 		Hi All!

I’ve been playing Scen #1, as the Allies against the AI in around 700+ turns already played by now.

In Burma, I was trying to use the classic “blitzkrieg” tactics, by 1. Sending Para drops ahead to secure important river crossing hexes, 2. Having armored units and artillery link with the Paras sitting there, then press forward and 3. Having infantry to clean up what’s left.

However, looks like I’m not able to carry out Para drops in hexes which are non-bases type.

Can anybody confirm that and if so, if there’s any way to overcome that?

Thanks in advance to you all!

Felipe
Post #: 1
RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 2:53:36 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
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Status: offline 		Paradrops are only possible into enemy bases.

That was a design choice given large empty areas on the game map, where in reality you would have bits and pieces of troops everywhere to harass paras.

Edit: Oh, and on top of enemy units as RangerJoe notes below. No more empty area then eh )

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 2/13/2021 3:56:33 PM >

(in reply to Podolano)
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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 2:54:22 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		The only way to do that is to drop them on the enemy unit that is not on a base. Otherwise, bases only.

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 2:59:52 PM   
Leandros


Posts: 1740
Joined: 3/5/2015
Status: offline 		Yes, and this is one of the strange pecularities in the game - and totally non-RL. I mean, that is the whole idea of paratroops, you do not jump right into an enemy base or unit, if you can avoid it. To have the enemy have to secure numerous locations against para drops is an accepted strategy - and should be the defender's problem.

This is only one more point where the Japanese side is given more advantages in "this war".

The Japanese did so on a couple of occasions but as often chose to drop in less defended areas.

Regds

Fred

< Message edited by Leandros -- 2/13/2021 3:04:15 PM >

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 3:00:40 PM   
Sardaukar


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Status: offline 		And if you drop them on enemy unit...great way to create your own "Mini-Arnhem" debacle...

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 3:06:41 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

And if you drop them on enemy unit...great way to create your own "Mini-Arnhem" debacle...


The Britsh Paras at Arnhem wasn't even dropped on enemy bases but had to march towards them after landing some distance away.

Same with the Americans and Polish.

Fred


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 3:11:35 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

And if you drop them on enemy unit...great way to create your own "Mini-Arnhem" debacle...


The Britsh Paras at Arnhem wasn't even dropped on enemy bases but had to march towards them after landing some distance away.

Same with the Americans and Polish.

Fred



Yep, I know the operation and it's progress.

My point is that planners ignored presence of 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions. In WitP-AE, unless enemy is very weak, drop on enemy unit hex would not go well...

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 3:35:04 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

And if you drop them on enemy unit...great way to create your own "Mini-Arnhem" debacle...


The Britsh Paras at Arnhem wasn't even dropped on enemy bases but had to march towards them after landing some distance away.

Same with the Americans and Polish.

Fred



IIRC it was on the order of 12 miles which in game terms is a drop on top of the defenders.

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Hans


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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 4:46:30 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

And if you drop them on enemy unit...great way to create your own "Mini-Arnhem" debacle...


The Britsh Paras at Arnhem wasn't even dropped on enemy bases but had to march towards them after landing some distance away.

Same with the Americans and Polish.

Fred



Yep, I know the operation and it's progress.

My point is that planners ignored presence of 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions. In WitP-AE, unless enemy is very weak, drop on enemy unit hex would not go well...


I see no reason why Para units should not be able to jump anywhere. Only my opinion.

Fred


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 9
RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 5:12:03 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

And if you drop them on enemy unit...great way to create your own "Mini-Arnhem" debacle...


The Britsh Paras at Arnhem wasn't even dropped on enemy bases but had to march towards them after landing some distance away.

Same with the Americans and Polish.

Fred



Yep, I know the operation and it's progress.

My point is that planners ignored presence of 9th and 10th SS Panzer divisions. In WitP-AE, unless enemy is very weak, drop on enemy unit hex would not go well...


I see no reason why Para units should not be able to jump anywhere. Only my opinion.

Fred


Not true! Jumping mid-ocean is frowned upon by all Paras for some reason. Maybe they don't teach swimming in para school ...

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 5:16:50 PM   
Sardaukar


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Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Jumping into jungle or forest is not the recommended action either...

OTOH, jumping into clear hex should be OK but in some situations unbalancing to game.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 2/13/2021 5:17:48 PM >

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 5:53:26 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Not true! Jumping mid-ocean is frowned upon by all Paras for some reason. Maybe they don't teach swimming in para school ...

If only they had a say! Look at Sicily.

Fred
-----

_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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Post #: 12
RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 5:55:15 PM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Jumping into jungle or forest is not the recommended action either...

OTOH, jumping into clear hex should be OK but in some situations unbalancing to game.


Wouldn't that be a good reason to do it?

Fred
-----

_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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Post #: 13
RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 9:51:29 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		The Japanese have superior airborne troops available to the Allied side. Not sure how restricting drops to bases is in the Japanese favor. I'd love to be able to drop my guys anywhere I want.

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 10:05:29 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		1. I agree it would be wonderfull if airborne forces can land anywhere
2. The engine wouldnt allow it without a total re write which is why we didn't do it - it was on the list but didnt make the cut 10 years ago
3. Like it or not this game is centred on bases and base hexes its a pain but there it is
4. I wasnt even aware you could drop paras on an LCU outside of a base !!!

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/13/2021 10:10:28 PM   
geofflambert


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From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		If I could drop anywhere I could cut every RR line hex within range of my transports, and the Japanese have some really looooooooooooooooooooong range transports. The enemy would have to occupy all those hexes to stop it.

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/14/2021 2:01:48 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

1. I agree it would be wonderfull if airborne forces can land anywhere
2. The engine wouldnt allow it without a total re write which is why we didn't do it - it was on the list but didnt make the cut 10 years ago
3. Like it or not this game is centred on bases and base hexes its a pain but there it is
4. I wasnt even aware you could drop paras on an LCU outside of a base !!!



An educated guess would be that both ground units, and bases, are locations on the location database.

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/14/2021 4:23:25 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

Yes, and this is one of the strange pecularities in the game - and totally non-RL. I mean, that is the whole idea of paratroops,


I beg to differ, the whole idea of para's is that they have to drop on or near their objectives (not miles away) to be effective. If not they are in danger of being cut off and eliminated. The whole Market-Garden operation proves this, not just the British para's.

As for the Chindits, their objective was harassment. They had no real objective, other than to disrupt. They went in in small groups, were supplied by air, and walked out, because there were not any real front lines. In game terms, at 46 miles per hex, I don't think it really applies. You need a much smaller scale in order for their use not to be too effective.

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/14/2021 4:24:40 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

If I could drop anywhere I could cut every RR line hex within range of my transports, and the Japanese have some really looooooooooooooooooooong range transports. The enemy would have to occupy all those hexes to stop it.





_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to geofflambert)
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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/14/2021 8:17:12 AM   
Leandros


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Exactly - that's life. That said, I believe there is a limitation on how many units you can split the paras into. To my knowledge you cannot split a battalion?

Fred

_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/14/2021 8:23:01 AM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

As for the Chindits, their objective was harassment. They had no real objective, other than to disrupt. They went in in small groups, were supplied by air, and walked out, because there were not any real front lines.


You have just described what the game should enable you to do. Thank you!

Fred


_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/14/2021 8:25:11 AM   
Leandros


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


Exactly - that's life. That said, I believe there is a limitation on how many units you can split the paras into. To my knowledge you cannot split a battalion?

Fred


Oh, well, came to think of it one can load up only a few planes and send those off.

Fred


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River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/14/2021 9:31:46 AM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		Well, someone did a Scenario 2 remake and added a lot of small bases, including in Malaya. Those are just begging to be dropped in on. Day 1, paratroopers air lifted to Indochina. Day 2, paratroopers based in Indochina drop in on bases in Malaya to stop the Malaya Army units from retreating to Singapore while Mersing is invaded.

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― Julia Child


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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/14/2021 10:27:02 AM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
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Status: offline 		People complaining about reality vs game setting of paradrops should also complain about the absence of zillion smaller rear units meant to counter paradrops, diversions, sabotage and all that jazz. And then try to imagine playing that hog of a game... No, thank you

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Post #: 24
RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/14/2021 9:31:50 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

As for the Chindits, their objective was harassment. They had no real objective, other than to disrupt. They went in in small groups, were supplied by air, and walked out, because there were not any real front lines.


You have just described what the game should enable you to do. Thank you!

Fred


No, you are quoting me out of context...

quote:

In game terms, at 46 miles per hex, I don't think it really applies. You need a much smaller scale in order for their use not to be too effective.


If you don't include the rest, you miss my whole point. To drop a few men into a 46 mile wide expanse of jungle and expect them to have any control of the area is absurd.



_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Leandros)
Post #: 25
RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/14/2021 9:33:42 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

To my knowledge you cannot split a battalion?


Someone did it in a mod.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 26
RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/14/2021 9:35:00 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

People complaining about reality vs game setting of paradrops should also complain about the absence of zillion smaller rear units meant to counter paradrops, diversions, sabotage and all that jazz. And then try to imagine playing that hog of a game... No, thank you


Here, here...


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 27
RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/14/2021 9:53:40 PM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

In game terms, at 46 miles per hex, I don't think it really applies. You need a much smaller scale in order for their use not to be too effective.


If you don't include the rest, you miss my whole point. To drop a few men into a 46 mile wide expanse of jungle and expect them to have any control of the area is absurd.


Even a battalion is pushing it. With a hex being close to 5.000 km2, every squad would have more than 100 km2 to hold...

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 28
RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/15/2021 2:09:53 AM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros


Exactly - that's life. That said, I believe there is a limitation on how many units you can split the paras into. To my knowledge you cannot split a battalion?

Fred


You don't need to split it that way. It only takes a hundred guys to block a rail line. Use a transport squadron that only has two planes (with foresight you can arrange such things using a few tricks) and only one day's worth of drop, then move on to the next target. There's no telling how many times you could do that with one regiment.

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RE: Para drops in non-bases hexes - 2/15/2021 2:13:22 AM   
geofflambert


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Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Heck, forget about just RRs, you could completely surround areas so no supplies get in overland at all. You could occupy every empty hex in India.

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