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Ship types help - 2/9/2021 7:46:26 AM   
Phoenix100

 

Posts: 2826
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		I'm still new to this....

I discovered by accident that cargo ships (AK and xAK) could transport fuel!!! There I was scouring the pacific for oilers and tankers...

In the manual I read of AK class:

ship specifically designed to carry cargo, including
military equipment, supplies, and resources.

I suppose 'resources' must mean fuel, thinking about it. But, can anyone point me to a better guide to ship classes and types and what each can do, is best for, not so useful for etc? If such exists. Thanks.
Post #: 1
RE: Ship types help - 2/9/2021 8:10:56 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		AK and xAK load “fuel” as cargo, think 44 gallon drums.
For “resources” think raw materials like iron ore and rubber.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/9/2021 8:15:31 AM   
Sardaukar


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Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Fuel is fuel, oil is oil and resources is all other raw materiel.

And xAK can carry fuel, just with reduced load. Very handy if not willing to risk precious TK that should always be kept out of harm's way if possible.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/9/2021 9:10:38 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
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From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		The game does not distinguish between steam-engined (reciprocating or turbine) and motor ships (petrol or diesel engines) and between oil-heated and coal-heated steamers - for the sake of keeping things managable, all ships use "fuel".

In the game, "fuel" is produced exclusively in refineries from oil , so it can be considered as being a placeholder for petrol, diesel and heavy fuels like fuel oil and marine fuel ("bunker oil").

Coal would count as "resource", as does iron ore, bauxit, lead, cotton, food and basically anything counting as primary products.

"Resources" can only be moved by freighters of the AK types.

Fuel can be carried in tankers and AK types, the latter taking a 50% penalty in capacity because the fuel is considered to be carried in drums (barrels).

Now, petrol and diesel fuels are liquids and can easily be filled into drums for transportation. It is also possible to refuel small boats like PTs directly from drums. But it would be impractical to refuel larger motor ships or storage facilities with drummed petrol or diesel.

Heavy fuels like marine fuel however, is a dense viscous mass which becomes liquid only when heated - tankers, oilers and storage facilites have the necessary equipment for this. For this reason it is rather unsuitable to be transported in oil drums.

The number of "small fry" motor ships that could be refueld using drummed petrol or diesel is relatively small and the quanities handled that way are insignificant in the scope of the game.

So by and large, "fuel" in the game is "heavy fuel" or petrol/diesel carried as "bulk" in tankers and not in drums.

For this reason, some players seeking more realism avoid shipping drummed fuel on AK types (except maybe a small xAKL to keep PTs and landing craft operating at some forward base).


Edit: Forgot to add - the heavy industries in the game also consume "fuel" and in large quantities - which again favours the "bulk" method over drummed fuel.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 2/9/2021 9:23:17 AM >

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RE: Ship types help - 2/9/2021 9:17:19 AM   
Phoenix100

 

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Status: offline 		I see. Excellent info. Thanks.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/9/2021 10:31:27 AM   
Ian R

 

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From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		In standard scenarios, xAK such as the Liberties have part of their cargo space devoted to wet cargo - it does help to carry a little fuel out from SFO/LAX to wherever they are heading.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/9/2021 10:48:48 AM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		And if you aren't already aware, fuel for aircraft and motor vehicles is considered part of 'supply', so you don't have to arrange tankers to support your air ops. Just bring lots of supply.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/9/2021 11:23:58 AM   
Ambassador

 

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From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline 		With the number of Liberty, Victory and other fuel-carrying classes, it does amount to a lot of fuel transported. Most of them also have legs long enough to avoid refueling at the destination, or in a waypoint, so this is pretty neat.

quote:

Just bring lots of supply.

This pretty much sums up the game.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/9/2021 1:43:23 PM   
HansBolter


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From: United States
Status: offline 		Many items, including troops, can be cross loaded into shipping spaces not intended for them.

The manual provides details on the ratios of cross loading.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/9/2021 3:04:06 PM   
WEXF

 

Posts: 180
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Status: offline 		Another small point is that when you have loaded oil instead of fuel the numbers will be in red.
The same is true when you have loaded resources instead of supply, the numbers will also be in red.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/9/2021 4:32:30 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WEXF

Another small point is that when you have loaded oil instead of fuel the numbers will be in red.
The same is true when you have loaded resources instead of supply, the numbers will also be in red.

Orange, not red - but a good point made.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/9/2021 4:48:05 PM   
WEXF

 

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Status: offline 		That's why I am just a trooper. I almost got it right.
Wex

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RE: Ship types help - 2/10/2021 6:55:19 AM   
Phoenix100

 

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Status: offline 		I didn't know any of that. Especially the point about fuel for air ops being included in supply. Thanks all!

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RE: Ship types help - 2/10/2021 11:34:53 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		When you cross load troops into cargo space you get a message in red at the bottom of the loading screen that you don't have sufficient troop space, but at the top of the interface you will still get the report that the unit has loaded 100%.



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RE: Ship types help - 2/10/2021 4:41:01 PM   
RevRick


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From: Thomasville, GA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

When you cross load troops into cargo space you get a message in red at the bottom of the loading screen that you don't have sufficient troop space, but at the top of the interface you will still get the report that the unit has loaded 100%.



I have never tried to transport troops when that particular device was signaling.... Something about merchant ships with flat bottoms in heavy seas with troops just stowed in the holds left up to their own devices sends tremors down my spine. EGAD - they might start a gambling palace in the aft hold.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/17/2021 10:45:03 PM   
bush

 

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From: san jose, ca
Status: offline 		Also, if you are interested in keeping things more "realistic;" Symon pointed out (many moons ago) that there were not enough drums in existence to be loading fuel onto AK types. I always self-limit to just using TK and AO, plus the afore mentioned wet capacity of some AKs.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/18/2021 5:43:35 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: WEXF

Another small point is that when you have loaded oil instead of fuel the numbers will be in red.
The same is true when you have loaded resources instead of supply, the numbers will also be in red.

Orange, not red - but a good point made.


And just to confuse you, you can also load sup and resonto the same AK, I suppose the same goes for fuel and oil onto a TK. The game appears to take this into account and unloads correctly. Not sure this was indended but it does.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/18/2021 6:45:12 PM   
Dan1977

 

Posts: 62
Joined: 1/28/2021
Status: offline 		To Phoenix100, Some other points worth noting: When non-tanker type ships load fuel or Oil (in drums) then the loading & unloading is slower than the loading of supplies would be, or into tankers/oilers. Same goes for resources. Slower loading & unloading. Reason: Supplies are pre-packaged, on pallets or in CONEX containers for shipping by rail or ship. Resources are generically in loose piles or stacks dumped into holds of ships. Of course, try to dock your ships whenever possible for faster loading/unloading.

About loading troops into AK/AKE type ships & cargo into AP type ships. The rule book gives the details, see Section 6.3. On page 120, find the row for AK & AKL types. For Allied strategic movement: Divide the Cargo capacity of the AK by 6, that equals the maximum number of troops that can be carried. For AKL's, divide cargo capacity by 8. Remember that each ground unit has a Troops load# & a Cargo load#. Some units like Artillery may have only Cargo loading needs (no troop loading needs). You should use your Cargo ships to move ground units, don't rely only on AP (transports). You will also see that after a unit is loaded on a ship, that it will start loading supplies to fill the empty space on the ship, unless you tell it otherwise.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/18/2021 8:38:51 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		For ships loading troops that also have a liquid fuel capacity, it is a good idea to click the "Do Not Load Fuel" since it is easier to lose the ship due to any fires from enemy action. Especially Japanese ships, they can be destroyed by one .50 hit.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/19/2021 5:01:57 AM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

For ships loading troops that also have a liquid fuel capacity, it is a good idea to click the "Do Not Load Fuel" since it is easier to lose the ship due to any fires from enemy action. Especially Japanese ships, they can be destroyed by one .50 hit.

No luck on that - if the ship has a dedicated fuel tank it will load fuel in it even with that setting. But fuel is the last thing loaded so you can often stop the loading before the fuel is loaded, but with some cost of unused cargo space as well.

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RE: Ship types help - 2/19/2021 9:28:05 AM   
Phoenix100

 

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Status: offline 		Ok. Very helpful. Thanks all.

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Post #: 21
Ship types help - new Question - 2/19/2021 4:15:59 PM   
trevorcolby

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 2/19/2021
Status: offline 		Has anyone figuerd out why I should convert xAK types to AG types ? They are then afer conversion a Tender Class ship, Ok, but for what purpose ? They cant be part of any amphibious TF compared to xAK's so where is the pint of them ? PLease, can anyone enlighten mem, thnx in advance

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RE: Ship types help - new Question - 2/19/2021 4:44:13 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: trevorcolby

Has anyone figuerd out why I should convert xAK types to AG types ? They are then afer conversion a Tender Class ship, Ok, but for what purpose ? They cant be part of any amphibious TF compared to xAK's so where is the pint of them ? PLease, can anyone enlighten mem, thnx in advance


Firstly, what makes you think having xAK in an Amphibious task force is a good idea, and secondly, what makes you think you are going to run out of xAK and therefore can't convert them to another ship type?

Alfred

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RE: Ship types help - new Question - 2/19/2021 4:54:17 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I suggest that you read this guide for the various tenders and support ships:

Tender and Support/Auxillary Ship Guide

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2920431

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 24
RE: Ship types help - 2/19/2021 5:13:32 PM   
RhinoDad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1977

Reason: Supplies are pre-packaged, on pallets or in CONEX containers for shipping by rail or ship. Resources are generically in loose piles or stacks dumped into holds of ships.


Good point but pallets and Conex containers are a much newer tech than when the game is supposedly taking place. Longshoremen unload the goods, often in boxes, at dock where stevedores calculate ship balance and packing then supervised the bringing onboard and packing of the ships holds. Each piece of supply is carried onto the ship via ship cranes, often in cargo nets. Then lowered through ship hatches. Unloaded from crane, then stacked, packed and repeatedly tied off. Pallets do not allow for optimal use of ships hold and subject to shifting enroute. Lather rinse repeat at ship destination.

Raw materials often had to be put into containers in ship hold as many are abrasive or are dangerous if just piled up inside of ship. Also they can be reactive with next cargo load so do not want remaining bits mixed with new load.

Stacked pallets in a ships hold would shift at sea and could easily result in ship being sunk. The ships holds had to be packed so they would not shift and would not abrade through the ship. A shifting or abrading cargo would often lead to a lost ship, or at least heavily damaged one, and cargo.

The packing of ships was a very specialized job and great care and expertise had to be used in order that both maximized the ships capacity with a tightly packed non shifting cargo in hold, all while maintaining ship fore/aft and port/starboard balance. Since in rough seas a ship will flex and twist the cargo has to be able to maintain structure during and after ship hold shape changes.

Trains moved cargo in cargo cars and were also loaded and stacked, like a moving van, but less care had to be taken of shifting cargo. Truck delivers goods to train station, goods unloaded off of truck, goods repacked onto train car. Lather rinse repeat at train destination.

That is why palletized goods and CONEX containers were invented. Took away the need for much manual labor, specialized labor, and also saved much time in loading and unloading.

It is great the game does not get into the weeds and rather elegantly abstracts the process.

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