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Allied Subs - patrols - 2/5/2021 4:21:52 AM   
LGKMAS

 

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Another request for answers from the great pool of experienced players.
Allied Sub patrols.
I tend to allocate patrol boundaries, usually three or four hexes away from each other and have the sub patrol around those hexes. My reasoning is that with a reaction of 1, they should be able to respond to anything around those hexes. And there is a chance I can detect something if I have chosen a patrol route correctly. This was my go-to solution when I had few subs available and a lot of ocean to cover.
Now, late 1942, I am getting a lot of subs. In 1943 I get 70 subs on top of the 100 I already have.
So, now that I have subs to spare, so to speak, am I better off putting a line of subs across expected IJN supply routes and having them remain on station until they have to return to base? At about one hex intervals, maybe just in adjacent hexes?
Or should I continue to patrol the area and allocate multiple subs to that same patrol route so that they are only a hew or so apart as they travel the patrol route?
My intent is to sink shipping, naval or civil I don't care. If I can sink enough ships, he can't supply his garrisons and thus they become extremely vulnerable. Recon and trip wires are not my style with subs, I want to sink things.
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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/5/2021 6:49:07 AM   
Ambassador

 

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Do not have them Remain on station. A patrol with several hexes is the best, like you’re doing. Once you have a lot of submarines, have them on adjacent lines, or have their patrol areas overlap each other, but don’t let them remain on station on a line.

Read the rules on DL/MDL in the manual (section 10, page 217-221). Your submarines can only react to an enemy you have detected (the higher the DL, the better the odds, including combat), and once a submarine is detected, his odds of attacking successfully a convoy are very low. The ideal solution is to have squadrons on Naval Search (day and night), so the longer you hold to Bataan, the best it is.

Keep also in mind the travel times to and from the patrol areas. If you’re operating from Midway, your boats may easily spend two-thirds of their time at sea actually cruising to and from the Japanese seas, especially those going to South China Sea, which means that out of 60 submarines, you might only have 20 on patrol at any given moment. Anticipate the moment a sub on patrol will leave the area to send his replacement before that.

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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/5/2021 7:29:13 AM   
LGKMAS

 

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Thanks Ambassador
Glad to know my thinking accords with the flow. I have found certain areas that I think are choke points for merchant shipping so I have set patrols the criss-cross those shipping lanes. My intent once I get enough subs is for two or three to carry out that patrol simultaneously so that there is always two or three subs in that patrol zones across the shipping lanes. Hopefully i may get some good targets there.
I am now late 42 so Bataan is not an option. And I am severely conscious of the transit time. I have moved the SWPAC sub base up from Brisbane to Townsville and am now basing some out of Milne Bay. NOPAC the sub base has moved forward from Dutch Harbor to Adak, saving a hell of a lot of transit time.
Carnarvon and Merauke are bases although I am looking at Darwin to again cut transit time. I have moved from Colombo to Tricomalee due to the gain of 12 hexes there and back. I am seriously looking at Johnston Is as a fwd sub base as it is nearly 20 hexes closer to the action than Pearl Harbor. However, Truk is 25 hexes from Milne Bay, 54 from Johnston Is and a massive 73 from Pearl. Guess which base will be given the task of patrolling Truk?
Anything that will allow my subs more time in the patrol zone is being used.

< Message edited by LGKMAS -- 2/5/2021 7:37:13 AM >

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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/5/2021 7:37:11 AM   
Ambassador

 

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That’s the point. It pays to keep notes of the distances to various areas from your forward ports, and to use different ports for different tasks.

Be wary though about the shallow waters in the DEI with your Darwin-based boats (or anywhere else). Subs get easily killed there.

And remember to use your mines. Most of your US subs have faulty torpedoes, there’s no point in letting the mines rust in the depots rather than being used.

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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/5/2021 7:43:29 AM   
GetAssista

 

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See if you subs are detected. Outside the detection area it is more efficient fuel-wise to have subs linger in one hex, each sub in its own. In the areas that are routiely searched it might be better to move subs constantly to shed detection

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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/5/2021 10:26:09 AM   
ITAKLinus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

See if you subs are detected. Outside the detection area it is more efficient fuel-wise to have subs linger in one hex, each sub in its own. In the areas that are routiely searched it might be better to move subs constantly to shed detection



I use the linger command as well and it give very good results. Note that you have to constantly check your subs in order to assess their current situation. Also SigInt is very relevant.

F.ex. you see a Japanese AF Coy going, let's say, in Puerto Princesa (random base). Guess what's gonna do there? Yeah, set up an ASW base to protect some kind of ship lane. In the case, I would bet he's sending Borneo OIL/FUEL to Manila (or even directly to Onshu). My subs in the area, which is normally quite calm, no longer can enjoy the linger command and I have to reset the patrol area.

When the enemy is diligent in his ASW efforts, you have to manually set a patrol waypoint quite far away in order to let your sub move and lower its dectection, hopefully even getting out of the area searched by enemy planes.
If the Japnese is somehow decent in his efforts, he will put NavS day/night using FPs plus LBs in ASW and it's tricky for your guys.



Other few notes.

A) Check your subs' leaders. It's a very neglected thing but I have enjoyed a relatively good amount of sinkings even in 1941 with american subs providing them better commanders. Naval and aggression are the big skills here (but someone corrects me if I am wrong on this) and I tend to put higher NavSkill on subs which operate in heavily contested waters.
B) NavS. Quite obviously, your subs are much better off if they have NavS available. Sometimes it can be rewarding to put them in areas closer to the frontline and well patroled by the enemy, just to have the nice day/night NavS provided by your air assets.
C) Enemy lanes. I think many Japanese players (and I am basically a 300% Japanese player ) are quite repetitive in their logistics management. Check previos AARs from the opponent to understand how he think about logistics. Check especially his screenshots: maybe he was talking about the "Battle of Ternate", but you see his convoys from Borneo in the same image... Pay attention to SigInt.
D) Keep your patrol settings variegated and spread. I find much better use for the subs scattered all around the map (the part controlled by the Japanese, of course ). Here is the trick: if you concentrate your assets, the Japanese will concentrate his ones and you're gonna sink relatively few ships. Moreover, he's not gonna invest much in ASW in other areas.
I have usually a good amount of subs in the most common Japanese lanes, but a very relevant share of my subs do interdiction in weird areas, trying to sink very minor enemy convoys. The point here is to try to make the Japanese bleed OR to make him invest in ASW assets in forgotten areas.

Last, but not least, I like to have some sort of sub reserve. Something like 20 subs I rotate around the map to flood one area at time on top of the ones already present. Say you allocate 10 subs to Southern DEI area. The Japanese somehow responds allocating more ASW assets and so on. Now say that for a period of a month or so you allocate 30. He will for sure incurr in additional losses or, even more likely, slow down his shipments, impairing his operations in the area (hopefully). Moreover, the Japanese can even think you are going to do some major operation in the area, taking your subs as a support for some random landing or whatever.

Guess it's all about my patrols

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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/5/2021 2:31:11 PM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

D) Keep your patrol settings variegated and spread. I find much better use for the subs scattered all around the map (the part controlled by the Japanese, of course ). Here is the trick: if you concentrate your assets, the Japanese will concentrate his ones and you're gonna sink relatively few ships. Moreover, he's not gonna invest much in ASW in other areas.
I have usually a good amount of subs in the most common Japanese lanes, but a very relevant share of my subs do interdiction in weird areas, trying to sink very minor enemy convoys. The point here is to try to make the Japanese bleed OR to make him invest in ASW assets in forgotten areas.


+1

Putting pressure on the enemy’s escort and ASW capabilities is key to enforce a healthy survival rate, and a decent dose of success for one’s silent hunters. Not only do you disperse the assets, but you, perhaps more importantly, increase the overall fuel and supply expenditure.

(in reply to ITAKLinus)
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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/5/2021 3:51:53 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

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Damn! I forgot to mention that important factor!

Japanese players are somehow obliged to use for most of the game the crappy PBs and SCs, which consume an insane amount of fuel over the long run.
They sink very few subs, btw. This is due to the fact that they do use the "bad" depth charges.

Later on, Japan can produce the so-called "Super-Es", which are killers. They have a very good ASW armament and, crucially, they do carry the "good" depth charges (I was going to write a typo... "Death Charges"... Freudian lapsus? ). Those Es can kill many subs and they often do.

A remarkably good patrol organisation obliges the Japanese player to spread those hunters and, albeit deadly, losses are not catastrophic.


Here a collage of a screenshots I deem interesting:


First screenshots: Japanese side (therefore, no FOW) at 31/dec/1943. Sunk ships by enemy's subs.
Second screenshots: Allied side (therefore, no FOW) at 31/dec/1943. Sunk subs.
Third screenshots: Allied damaged subs at 31/dec/1943.
Fourth screenshots: Allied concentration of subs around Onshu (taken from the allied side).


As you can see it's a very weak sub patrol structure (I haven't highlighted patrol areas but they are quite irrelevant).
Subs are all concentrated in this zone of the map and in places where very few convoys pass by. With Torishima and Bonin developed in ASW platforms, also, the Japanese has just 7 hexes of open waters between Tokio and the Bonin.


In that match, also, I run my usual "mega-convoys".
For example. Singapore-Onshu. I run fuel/oil on this route. However, I run it in the "battle of the atlantic style": I make two big convoys of 172.000ton each to allow them to dock in both Singapore and Nagasaki/Sasebo. They carry roughly between 320.000ton and 350.000ton of OIL/FUEL.
Heavily escorted: a Japanese AV with 9 Jakes (day NavS x3 + night NavS x3 + ASW x3) and several "Super-Es". I often detatch a slow CVE with Kates or Judy-IV to help.

Now. Let's suppose it takes 30 days to do a trip (in reality a little bit more but it helps us in the calculations). If the Allied player has 10 subs on the convoy's route, he has 10 possible interceptions per-month.
Let's imagine now that the Japanese uses instead 5 convoys scattered. All of a sudden the possible interceptions become 50 (10x5=50 ). AND he cannot properly escort each one of them.

So, what to do? It's more reasonable to spread out the subs in order to have attrition in less guarded convoys.



Another funny trick I employed in this match is this. I suspend ALL NavS/ASW activities with my aircraft for few turns. I stop every ship movement. I run several ASW-TFs of "Super-Es" directly above the subs with aggressive TF leaders.
Result? A slaughterhouse.
Subs tend to attack when they have low detection. I artificially lower it suspending my aircraft patrols. The "Super-Es" are very bad in attacking the sub first, but they do wonders when attacked (basically it goes that the sub shots, misses the fast and small ships and gets sunk).
Now I "cleaned" a little bit the area. If I am very evil I chase the subs with some CVEs and the bunch of "Super-Es", sinking them as far as 25 hexes EAST of Onshu.



In the game posted abouve, when I took command of the Allied side at 01/Jan/1944, I discovered that the Allies have a grand total of 98 subs, SSTs included. Not a bad work from my side as far as I was Japanese.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/5/2021 6:59:21 PM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

Another funny trick I employed in this match is this. I suspend ALL NavS/ASW activities with my aircraft for few turns. I stop every ship movement. I run several ASW-TFs of "Super-Es" directly above the subs with aggressive TF leaders.
Result? A slaughterhouse.
Subs tend to attack when they have low detection. I artificially lower it suspending my aircraft patrols. The "Super-Es" are very bad in attacking the sub first, but they do wonders when attacked (basically it goes that the sub shots, misses the fast and small ships and gets sunk).
Now I "cleaned" a little bit the area. If I am very evil I chase the subs with some CVEs and the bunch of "Super-Es", sinking them as far as 25 hexes EAST of Onshu.

I’ve used a similar trick, as Allied. My opponent was a bit predictable on the patrol zones of his subs, so I used to run my real convoys from out of the way routes, but I was running very heavily escorted « decoy convoys » with old and slow xAK carrying only supply, and my best escorts... followed by a CVE TF a couple hexes further back, planes at short range (shorter than the distance to the decoy convoy), and a couple of additional ASW TF. The convoy’s escort often damaged (or outright sank late war) a submarine, and I’d let the ASW TF’s loose with the CVE’s planes set at max range, to keep the contact. Before ‘43, I was doing the same but without the CVE’s, and bagged several subs, but once ‘43 came, I was sinking 3-4 subs per month, and he stopped trying.

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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/5/2021 9:11:07 PM   
Dan1977

 

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If I play a test game against the Japanese AI, then I have access to both Allied & Japanese reports (text files). I have discovered that aerial ASW patrols will often spot enemy subs without being noticed themselves, as opposed to surface ships. The Ops Reports reveal when you spot an enemy aircraft, or when you spot their ships or subs. I would compare the Japanese & Allied reports side by side. My subs would be spotted, but not show a detection level. I would spot the enemy subs (my report). His report revealed nothing of my aircraft. Test this your self off PH on December 8th. My point: Your subs are being spotted by aircraft, most often without you knowing it. When you spot his subs, the same thing goes.

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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/17/2021 11:54:15 PM   
bush

 

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These are some notes Alfred posted before that I keep in my "Tips" notes:

1. Do not use Allied subs to guard important straits. That is a defensive task which is not suitable. Important straits should be "guarded" by aircraft and surface combat task forces, both of which have a much greater reaction range than do sub task forces.

2. Do not place sub task forces under "remain on station" orders. Doing so negates any patrol and reaction responses.

3. Avoid as much as possible sending sub task forces to operate where enemy air ASW coverage is strong. If you do send them there, the sub TF should be given a 3 point barrier to patrol with zero lingering at each barrier point.

4. Set your barrier points to be the distance the sub TF can move at cruise speed each 12 hour period. This will help to shake off the enemy DL on your sub TF.

5. A sub minelaying TF will very rarely attack enemy ships. Do not expect them to drop off their mines and then attack the enemy.

6. Pay careful attention to the distance between the patrol location and the sub TF home port. Aim for the distance to be no greater than 25% of the endurance. If the distance is greater than 33.3% you are wasting too much time transiting to and from the patrol zone.

7. Number one thing above all else, set patrol zones where you also have air naval search operating. Unless yhou can DL enemy task forces, your subs will rarely find a target to attack on their own cognisance.

8. Just like point 1 above, use of subs as scouts is also sub optimal if the objective is to sink enemy ships.

9. Subs which are slower than the enemy ships will rarely be able to get into position to launch an attack. This is a major factor why points 1 and 8 are sub optimal usage of subs as those are situations where the most likely enemy ships encountered will be combat ships which are faster than the subs.

10. The desired primary skill level for your sub commander is "naval". The secondary skill is "aggression". Aim for 60+ in "naval" skill, the higher the better. The naval skill rating must not be below the aggression skill rating.

11. American sub torpedo problems do not stop being a problem until September 1943.

12. Avoid placing sub patrols in shallow water. They are much more vulnerable to enemy counter measures. Focus on deep water locations.

In war sometimes the best course of action is not the most efficient. Clearly if air and surface naval assets are not an option and it is imperative to cover "that" strait, the deployment of subs is an option. But let's not confuse AE, the game, with a real war situation. IRL subs have their own means to locate and track enemy targets but in AE those means do not exist. Which means that in AE the cost benefit ratio is even worse and the opportunity cost is therefore higher.

In AE there is never a situation where doing something is "a necessity". There is always an opportunity cost. What the opponent is doing has to be factored in to one's own actions and usually there is more than one viable response to counter an opponent's actions. Are there times when covering a strait with subs only is a good deployment? The answer is yes but don't expect it to be an efficient use, in terms of sinking enemy ships, of your subs.

(in reply to Dan1977)
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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/18/2021 12:44:33 AM   
RangerJoe


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American subs get radar, that helps them to spot enemy ships.

I have sunk the Enterprise by a midget sub-carrier when it was going back to port with no patrol orders. Two torpedoes hit, one with an ammo storage explosion and the other with a fuel storage explosion. I did not know that the carrier TF was coming.

There are places, choke points, where you can position subs where the enemy has to transit, those are nice places to patrol.

Combat vessels normally do not sail as fast as they can, it uses a lot of fuel and increases damage so a sub can position itself to launch attacks. Unfortunately, it may only be against escorts.

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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/18/2021 9:44:09 AM   
Ambassador

 

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Subs won’t guard the strait like a surface TF does, but they can provide useful DL. Remember DL increases by 1 for every sub spotting a TF, and by another +1 for every sub which attacks, even unsuccessfully. A group of submarines, even slow, may provide more occasions of spotting an enemy TF (and radar helps), and help a SC TF standing by right behind the sub barrier (think Surigao Strait, with the PT boats providing intel for the subsequent crossing of the T).

There’s also a game of statistics and probabilities. The more occasions you have, the higher the odds of having one such occasion present the right combination of good and bad rolls allowing one of your old submarines a chance to put two torpedoes in the sides of an enemy CV.

Regarding speed, while true that combat ships have a higher speed (but see above regarding probabilities - bad die rolls happen), there are other considerations to have. Even if the enemy wins the surface combat thoroughly, the submarines may pick up the retreating damaged ships, and further cripple them. The AI won’t provide many escorts for the damaged ships, but a human player will if he remembers you had placed submarines through all the choke points - which will limit his opportunities to press his advantage after his win.
Also, transport and amphibious TF, slower than combat TF, will be more at risk, and your opponent will have to devote more escorts to those.

So, take Alfred’s comment more along the line of « don’t get unrealistic expectations » and « know the effects your subs will have »

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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/18/2021 6:58:43 PM   
Dan1977

 

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I like to use my Allied subs at recent landing/invasion sites, because cargo vessels linger unloading & follow-on enemy convoys arrive. Another sometimes forgotten weapon of the sub is the deck gun against merchants & barges, mainly at night. Sometimes the (Allied or Japanese) submarine starts with a deck gun attack & finishes with a torp attack.

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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/18/2021 9:34:53 PM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dan1977

I like to use my Allied subs at recent landing/invasion sites, because cargo vessels linger unloading & follow-on enemy convoys arrive.

True. And particularly in the initial phase, when the Japanese player has to immediately reload the assault troops to bring them on the next target.

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RE: Allied Subs - patrols - 2/18/2021 9:59:17 PM   
RangerJoe


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If you can, send PT Boats there so the Japanese can play bumper ships.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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