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RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/20/2021 12:10:09 PM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador
Trying to hold Ulan Bator and Chita, on the Soviet part, only makes sense for me as a delaying action. The main showdown, I believe, will happen at Irkutsk, but he needs time to build the forts (base starts at 1, and doesn’t have many engineers).

I think the outskirts of Irkutsk as a max frontline push is the realistic goal for Japan in the campaign against human USSR. You would not be able to win against Soviets in a PBEM imo (win in a sense of capturing Krasnoyarsk). Too much material, terrain and forts to go through. And Japan is not great on offensive against fortified heavily armed positions unless you can encircle and starve them. Moreover, Irkutsk is the goal DesertWolf stated in the beginning IIRC. Shorter future frontline and all that stuff.

And you can support your defense of Irkutsk with a couple of airfields on the southern side of the Lake.

I believe you can only conquer Krasnoyarsk if the Soviet player is careless and allowed his units to be surrounded, and moving the forces from the center towards Vladivostok to create a gigantic fortress (prison ?). If at the same time you manage to bring enough forces (heavy artillery, tanks, engineers, and bombers, in a « damn the flak! » Farragut-like way) to Chita to pierce the front quickly, and reach Irkutsk before the forts are greatly reinforced, and the Soviet player is fool enough to move his western flank from Mongolia to Manchukuo (remember, we’re talking about an Allied player incompetent enough to send as many troops as possible to Vladivostok instead of north). If done so, the Soviet player may be lacking any proper reserves to defend the last few bases.
However, it is a very hypothetical scenario. Maybe DesertWolf’s original opponent might have made such mistakes.
But, with Mongolia’s troops moving back orderly, with the units of the center having concentrated in the north, and with a number of already destroyed combat units which could already have be bought back, and will quickly fill, it probably won’t be possible.

And even if pushing the Soviets back to Krasnoyarsk, come Spring ‘44 and you’ll see 20+ divisions with full artillery come thundering - and Soviet LCUs are well adapted for storming heavily fortified positions.

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Post #: 811
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/20/2021 12:44:54 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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Status: offline 		A lively discussion Ambassador and GetAssista, with many good points made. I am just catching up, so let me respond to some of the comments and questions raised.

On the American units question: You are correct Ambassador, I have not encountered any full American divisions yet, although I did knock out a marine regiment at Pago Pago and several US Army ones in the Aleutians/Bombay. I too have been wondering where they are. Maybe this convoy that I intercepted in the Arabian Sea contained several of them, albeit likely in the ships that did not sink as the combat reports read to me like I mostly hit base force and HQ unit types. I have split my aircraft carriers into two fleets. My priority is to guard any approach to the SRA from the Indian Ocean and secondary to that any jump into the Central Pacific. If Andy wants to play in the Southern Pacific he will find it less of a priority to me until he gets close to Moresby/Rabaul.

With regards to the Ulan Bator/Chita issue: I hear what you guys are saying and I largely agree. I differ somewhat in that I still see advantages to the Ulan Bator sector as well as Chita. They both have their strengths and weaknesses as offensive sectors for the Japanese. It really comes down to where Andy will devote his main concentration of forces. I almost broke through in the Ulan Bator sector but he brought the kitchen sink there so I shifted attention to Chita. I remain extremely flexible though and am looking for and ready to exploit any openings.

In terms of potential bases to paradrop on: Yes, I have attempted to recon as deep as I can for defenseless bases. As far as I can tell, every single Soviet base on the rail that I can reach has a strong enough garrison to defend against paras. Kysyl I haven't reconed but I would wager has no troops. What I have been eyeing for several days now though is Kirensk. He will surely respond and block any attempt to cut the rail from there, but any troops I force him to keep in the rear right now is a strong plus.

And yes indeed, Irkutsk is definitely my main strategic objective. I don't even need to take the base, I just want to have the mountains south of it as a short hard frontline against future Soviet attacks.

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Post #: 812
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/20/2021 1:37:50 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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The flak over Vladivostok is monstrous. I lost 20 bombers in this raid.






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Post #: 813
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/20/2021 1:38:59 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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Status: offline 		As I mentioned before, I am a big fan of the Nick. Here they are going down and low in the air to ground role.






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RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/20/2021 1:59:34 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
The flak over Vladivostok is monstrous. I lost 20 bombers in this raid.

I see most of your bombers run in at 7к, what else would you expect? Soviet 37mm and 45mm have a ceiling at ~9к and they are the bulk of Soviet AA in Vlad. 76mm/85mm are inescapable wrt ceiling but are fewer. Bomb at 11к and see how things change

And yeah, armor helps. Relegate older planes to some other bombing duty

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 2/20/2021 2:02:04 PM >

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Post #: 815
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/20/2021 2:03:22 PM   
Alfred

 

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Status: offline 		In AE, flanking bases is quite popular, and very much over rated. It succeeds because the base defender panics and abandons the base to maintain their LOC. But due to the abstraction in the game, flanking never cuts the LOC. There is onlyh one way of cutting the LOC to a base and that entails entering the base from all 6 sides. To which there is a very simple antidote.

Bases are like fortresses. There are two classic military functions for fortresses; (1) a secure supply depot, and (2) buy time for the field army. Both roles are well represented in the game. Against the flanking operation, the classic riposte of the field army trapping the besiegers against the fortress defenders is well enabled in AE.

Alfred

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Post #: 816
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/20/2021 2:11:53 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
The flak over Vladivostok is monstrous. I lost 20 bombers in this raid.

I see most of your bombers run in at 7к, what else would you expect? Soviet 37mm and 45mm have a ceiling at ~9к and they are the bulk of Soviet AA in Vlad. 76mm/85mm are inescapable wrt ceiling but are fewer. Bomb at 11к and see how things change

And yeah, armor helps. Relegate older planes to some other bombing duty


I actually was expecting to take high casualties in the raid but I decided to go with it anyways since I wanted to get his repairing subs. I was just illustrating this raid to show how dense the flak is at Vladivostok to the reader.

Btw, the bulk of the Soviet flak at Vladivostok is actually the 76mm/85mm type since that is where Andy sent the majority of his air defense battalions stuck in the pocket. Yes going lower than 11k brings me into range of the 37mm as well but the difference in losses to a 11k raid is actually marginal in this particular instance and worth the greater accuracy - if I am going to go in at all at least I better hit the subs!

Soviet 45mm ceiling is 19,000k btw.

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Post #: 817
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/20/2021 2:24:47 PM   
Ambassador

 

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Status: offline 		I quickly took to bomb only from 20k-25k. As has been said (by RJ I believe), the supply consumed by the flak will be more important than what the bombers could destroy, and you will still prevent the engineers from repairing the forts if you score only a couple of hits. Just do it day & night.

If you use armored planes, you might even go very low. Higher-caliber flak is at a disadvantage, your planes can endure some 7.7mm fire. It’ll be better than flying right in the enveloppe for the 37mm & 45mm. But multiple uncoordinated, high-altitude bombing runs are probably better on the long term.

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Post #: 818
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/20/2021 2:35:05 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
Soviet 45mm ceiling is 19,000k btw.

Yeah, I looked in a different scenario. Apparently stock 1 and stock 2 (Andy's updated) are quite different wrt Soviet AA stats

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Post #: 819
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/20/2021 3:09:48 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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Well lads, it looks like even without bombing supply in the pocket may be consumed at a higher pace after all. Andy's forces appear to be moving out in force towards my lines. If he really goes for it he is bound to penetrate at least a few hexes into my territory but hopefully he will be eventually halted by the arrival of my reserves.

Meanwhile some good news to the north. His units in the Mogocha pocket shock attack and are beaten back with heavy losses. They won't be breaking out. In the Chita area, I grabbed another hex side and am trying to go for a third. My goal here is to stretch his line very thin and then use a concentrated force of reserves to breakthrough at a single point.








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RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/20/2021 3:12:47 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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Status: offline 		Even better, my little side maneuver in the Ulan Bator sector worked even better than expected. His surging tank units attempted to quickly eject me from my position but the combination of Nick strafing attacks (looks like they ate up his supply too) and the perfectly timed arrival of Japanese reinforcements proved catastrophic for his attack. Despite low supply following the battle the Japanese counterattack will go in next turn.






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RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/20/2021 4:00:54 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
In AE, flanking bases is quite popular, and very much over rated. It succeeds because the base defender panics and abandons the base to maintain their LOC. But due to the abstraction in the game, flanking never cuts the LOC. There is onlyh one way of cutting the LOC to a base and that entails entering the base from all 6 sides. To which there is a very simple antidote.

Bases are like fortresses. There are two classic military functions for fortresses; (1) a secure supply depot, and (2) buy time for the field army. Both roles are well represented in the game. Against the flanking operation, the classic riposte of the field army trapping the besiegers against the fortress defenders is well enabled in AE.

Flanking is quite popular in real war too for obvious reasons - defense is easier than attack. And the antidote is obvious yes - you need to maintain the front with the field army, with base being an integral point. Cause as soon as the opponent is allowed to go around freely, closing the hexsides into the base is just a matter of time. It is much harder to dislodge the opponent's front denying approaches to the encircled base afterwards, compared to not allowing the opponent to encircle it in the first place.
Closing hexsides into the base is easy if your opponent gives you time, thanks to game abstraction

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
Well lads, it looks like even without bombing supply in the pocket may be consumed at a higher pace after all. Andy's forces appear to be moving out in force towards my lines. If he really goes for it he is bound to penetrate at least a few hexes into my territory but hopefully he will be eventually halted by the arrival of my reserves.

That would be interesting, and is to be expected given Andy's recent setbacks to the north. Whatever relief possible is welcome for the northern Soviets. You have your airforce and terrain on your side, and not that much to lose in terms of occasional forward bases. Soviet supply would be consumed much faster in the offensive too. Bide your time, bomb him, trade space for time and fight on favourable terrain. Don't repeat Andy's mistake of trying to shock attack some units in hope of some local tactical victory without being dead certain of the outcome. This pocket is a global, not local one.

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 2/20/2021 4:12:00 PM >

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Post #: 822
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/20/2021 4:32:01 PM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101

November 14, 1942

Well lads, it looks like even without bombing supply in the pocket may be consumed at a higher pace after all. Andy's forces appear to be moving out in force towards my lines. If he really goes for it he is bound to penetrate at least a few hexes into my territory but hopefully he will be eventually halted by the arrival of my reserves.

Nothing to lose, everything to gain. His troops are useless there, but if they die fighting, he has enough replacements to sent them back to combat in less than a year, maybe less than six months, from the north, with supplies and in a great army. Remember, he probably has a stockpile of 4000 Rifle squads, and soon to be even better Rifle ‘43 squads. Fighting now will help him hurt your troops more than after withering without supply.

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Post #: 823
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/21/2021 12:38:01 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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Status: offline 		I agree with you both. I also think it makes logical sense for him to move forward now, both to relieve the pressure on his northern flank and to actually have a decent chance of scoring some victories while the bulk of my forces are distracted elsewhere and while he still has plenty of supply. If he does come I will definitely not be rash. I am willing to trade some space for time where necessary and will attempt to fight him in advantageous terrain. As GetAssista rightly says, it's a global pocket not a local one.

His troop movements are a bit puzzling though, doubling back after reaching my frontier but still moving quite a bit. Maybe he is trying to feint, or maybe he decided to change the direction of advance. Either way I will find out in a few days if this is for real.

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Post #: 824
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/21/2021 12:53:49 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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A few updates and some other issues I want to mention:

India

His escaped convoys came back through the wormhole and unloaded at Karachi. I debated going for a round two but thought better of it. Andy has more than 150 fighters on CAP at Karachi, more than a dozen subs, whatever surface assets he has, plus the very likely probability that he has Russian torpedo bombers in the area in addition to other types of bombers. With the ability to come in off map, I think my ability to continue imposing a strong blockade that prevents him from reinforcing India is no longer realistic.

Upgraded Equipment
I still firmly believe that the decision to invade the USSR only makes sense if China is neutralized, but it would have been really nice if I had been able to eliminate China even quicker to allow for an earlier war with the Soviets. Still, I am finding that there are some advantages to having invaded in September 1942. The first is in terms of the upgraded airframes. The Tojo is great and I am able to beat the MiG-3 with it through good tactics, the Nick offers excellent flexibility and added ground attack capability, the A6M3a's phenomenal range gives me great options for long range LRCAP, and the armored Helen provides greater survivability against the Soviet's dense flak. The second is in terms of the Type 1 medium tank that all my tank units are equipped with. It is considerably superior to the Soviet BT-7 and T-26 tanks and greatly bolsters my armored fist.

Pilots
In general my pilot training is going quite smoothly and the number of elite pilots still in service is very healthy. I am starting to be concerned over the rate of pilot losses however as the air war considerably intensifies. Here is where I am at with pilot casualties. I have no idea how this compares to an average game so please let me know if you think it is too high.







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Post #: 825
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/21/2021 1:02:33 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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Status: offline 		Andy's submarine activity around the Home Islands has dramatically decreased. Aside from the three xAKs he sank in the first week, the Soviet submarines have not had any more successes. I have meanwhile destroyed about 20 Soviet subs and damaged a dozen more.

In the Ulan Bator sector my counterattack destroyed one of his tank Brigades and gutted a second. This has forced Andy to retreat his main army into Ulan Bator proper to prevent me from taking it through the secondary road I have opened as a new front here. Meanwhile farther to the north, I have taken Kirensk with a paradrop and hope to threaten his rail from there and hopefully force him to divert even more troops to guard his lines of communication and supply.








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RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/21/2021 2:52:58 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		Count up the Resource centers in the North and see what his production is and then determine just what he needs to produce supplies from every industrial source every turn. There may be a deficit.

Congratulations on those Soviet armoured losses. I know that the Soviets get a lot of armour but those are not very good tanks. But they are better than no tanks. Destroying the units help also on depleting the universal devices such as the support and motorized support squads.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 2/21/2021 2:58:59 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 827
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/21/2021 5:31:18 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Count up the Resource centers in the North and see what his production is and then determine just what he needs to produce supplies from every industrial source every turn. There may be a deficit.

Congratulations on those Soviet armoured losses. I know that the Soviets get a lot of armour but those are not very good tanks. But they are better than no tanks. Destroying the units help also on depleting the universal devices such as the support and motorized support squads.


I don't think the resources in the north matter much since he gets 4,000 supply aerogeneration from off map. I may be wrong, but I would think that ensures he will never run out of supply even if the LI is starved off resources.

Yes indeed, knocking out those support devices, especially the motorized ones, could cause a real scarcity not only for Soviet units but other Allied ones as well.


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Post #: 828
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/21/2021 5:36:38 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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And just like that, Sakhalin is Japanese. Out of the morning mist the Yamato task force appeared on the horizon and the Soviet garrison could see the spouts of flame in the distance before they could hear and feel the effects of the bombardment. Dazed and bewildered by what had just happened, they find themselves set upon by the attacking Japanese infantry of Tanto force and eventually surrender after a stiff day of fighting. Once the danger subsides some more I will start getting some of the oil repaired and delivered to the Home Islands. Four experienced Japanese infantry divisions have also been freed up for operations elsewhere.










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Post #: 829
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/21/2021 5:40:00 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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Status: offline 		Aside from Okha in Sakhalin, Japanese troops also took Iman today.






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RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/21/2021 6:07:46 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
Aside from Okha in Sakhalin, Japanese troops also took Iman today.

I see a Soviet movement indicator in there near Vlad. Is Andy pulling back on the western edge of the pocket? So offensive plans are reconsidered?

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Post #: 831
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/21/2021 6:12:42 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertWolf101
Aside from Okha in Sakhalin, Japanese troops also took Iman today.

I see a Soviet movement indicator in there near Vlad. Is Andy pulling back on the western edge of the pocket? So offensive plans are reconsidered?


Yes, take a glance at post 824 above. I'm not exactly sure what Andy is up to in the pocket but he changed direction at the last second.

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Post #: 832
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/21/2021 7:27:01 PM   
Ambassador

 

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Status: offline 		4000 supply per day looks like much, but it isn’t. If he reconstitutes a lot of division, he can’t supply more than 20 or 30 on a battlefield at a time, if that much, and certainly not on a protracted battle. This is the reverse of the medal of the amount of artillery. He probably will need 20-25% of that supply to fill his reconstituted divisions too.

To give you an idea, 4000 is less than the supply production of India or Australia, when enough fuel is brought, and it’s not nearly enough for the kind of battles which may happen once the Allied forces are built up a bit.

So, while he’ll never run out of it completely, it will have an effect on the rythm of his offensive in ‘44-‘45. That’s why, once you conquer Irkutsk (let’s be optimistic), you need to keep a strong garrison up there, to force him to bring most of his armies to break the roadblock. This way, it’ll slow him. Ideally, pressing your advance beyond Irkutsk will also cause him to spend more supply defending, therefore reducing the stockpile he can create to feed his late-war advance, but there’s a balance to be achieved between how much supply you make him lose versus how much you can afford to use, instead of stockpiling for the defense of the Home Islands.

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Post #: 833
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/21/2021 7:40:01 PM   
RangerJoe


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Status: offline 		For every unit that he reconstitutes costing supply to do so, then there is the higher supply consumption of that unit. Even more so until he gets more and better fighters to contest your air units attacking his units which will cost even more supply. Those little Ida units won't use much supply but may cost him a lot. As always, you can keep moving and he will have to respond.

Also, his supply of some devices may be limited so his units may get short changed as well. Maybe not infantry, but some of the artillery? I have not opened my game for awhile so I don't remember what they get. I guess that I will do so before I start cleaning the apartment . . .

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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Post #: 834
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/22/2021 2:53:51 AM   
DesertWolf101

 

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Status: offline 		You guys make some good points - perhaps given all the necessary supply expenditure Andy will have in the north the supply he has is not as overwhelming as may seem at first glance. His device pool is also very deep but there are some devices whose replacement rates are not as plentiful as his likely need. For instance Soviet HMGs and 152mm howitzers come to mind, not to mention BT-7 and T-26 tanks where he only gets 300 replacements each before production ends. Anyways, the name of the game is reaching the mountains south of Irkutsk. If I can make it there I will at least have excellent terrain to hold against the coming hordes. The coming few weeks will be decisive for the course of this entire war.

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Post #: 835
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/22/2021 12:39:34 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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The northern front in the USSR is heating up. Japanese forces are on the advance, ever vigilant for any weaknesses or openings. Andy is bringing up reinforcements to the Ulan Bator sector but seems to be pulling back from the river near Chita.






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Post #: 836
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/22/2021 12:41:05 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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Status: offline 		The Tojo proves itself against the MiG-3 once more. Best of all only one Tojo pilot was KIA, and that was to a landing accident...




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Post #: 837
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/22/2021 10:58:48 PM   
DesertWolf101

 

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Maneuver is the word of the day as the Japanese forces push forward through gaps in the Soviet line, circumvent their strongpoints, and flank their defense lines. In the Ulan Bator sector, Japanese tank regiments destroy the previously battered Soviet 206th Tank Brigade and positions themselves within striking distance of the Soviet supply line to the city. I am fairly certain that Andy is now pulling back his forces from the base.






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Post #: 838
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/23/2021 3:02:17 AM   
DesertWolf101

 

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Status: offline 		Defending in India

With Andy making full use of the Karachi wormhole, it is really only a matter of time until the Allies assemble a large enough force to try to take back India. The days of the Japanese offensive in the subcontinent are largely over, so I am starting to wrestle with how to defend here or really, if to defend at all.

I have and expect (hopefully) to maintain naval superiority in the area for at least another 6 to 12 months. Hopefully this means an Allied amphibious invasion to cut off my troops in India is off the table and I will also likely have the option of a sea evacuation if necessary. I don't want to rely on that too much however and I also don't want to wait to pull out until it's too late - I would rather do so at my own pace to prepare the defense in Burma etc. So thinking out loud here, is it realistic to still be in India in June 1943? With all my other commitments (USSR cough cough) maybe that is taking too big of a risk.

In any case, at least for the period where I do decide to defend, where should I draw my defensive lines I wonder? When I look at the map of India in the game I see precious few clear defensive lines, even if there are some excellent strongpoint locations like Calcutta. Anyone defend in India before as Japan? Some additional thoughts/perspectives on this would be very welcome.






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Post #: 839
RE: Empire of the Sun - 2/23/2021 3:29:21 AM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

A unit can expend up to 10 shots in combat. Each shot raises the supply required by 10%. Hence if all 10 shots are expended the total supply requirement figure is doubled. Most combat doesn't result in all 10 shots being expended.

The only way to attempt to reduce a unit's supply consumption from combat is to have it in "reserve" mode, and hope it isn't automatically moved out of "reserve" status.

Alfred

Alfred,

Just to clarify; the supply consumption is based upon the device LC, correct?

_____________________________

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