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Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy?

 
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Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/14/2021 6:37:21 AM   
kerog

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 12/23/2013
Status: offline 		If you conquer France, the whole fleet goes over to the Allies right? That seems like a big con. What are the pros?
Post #: 1
RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/14/2021 10:15:59 AM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		The most important one: no cooperation between the CW and France for a long, long time (until Paris gets liberated).

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Peter

(in reply to kerog)
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RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/14/2021 8:47:10 PM   
ssiviour

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 8/8/2014
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

The most important one: no cooperation between the CW and France for a long, long time (until Paris gets liberated).


But they can participate in the same Naval Combat and use the same Convoys. Since often Free France is reduced to nothing but naval units I don't really see this as a big issue, from the Allied perspective that is ....

< Message edited by ssiviour -- 2/14/2021 8:51:07 PM >

(in reply to Centuur)
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RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/14/2021 10:35:48 PM   
kerog

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 12/23/2013
Status: offline 		Can French ships rebase to British ports?

(in reply to ssiviour)
Post #: 4
RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/14/2021 10:43:02 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kerog

If you conquer France, the whole fleet goes over to the Allies right? That seems like a big con. What are the pros?


NO

They are overrun instead

Besides, before this occurs the French player uses to surrender, and there are some subtleties that I cant remember right now but are important.

(in reply to kerog)
Post #: 5
RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/14/2021 11:00:39 PM   
ssiviour

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 8/8/2014
From: Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kerog

Can French ships rebase to British ports?


As I understand it, they can not stack with CW units, but if it's empty they can use Ports in CW Home Countries i.e UK, India, Canada, Australia, South Africa, but not the Minors or Territories without a HQ for Foreign Troop Commitment.

(in reply to kerog)
Post #: 6
RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/14/2021 11:22:30 PM   
Joseignacio


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From: Madrid, Spain
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quote:

, but if it's empty they can use Ports in CW Home Countries i.e UK, India, Canada, Australia, South Africa, but not the Minors or Territories without a HQ for Foreign Troop Commitment.


I understand this just the opposite.


Unless they are already considered Free France, in which case they could cooperate with CW and USA and go any port.

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Post #: 7
RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/14/2021 11:33:18 PM   
ssiviour

 

Posts: 495
Joined: 8/8/2014
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio


quote:

, but if it's empty they can use Ports in CW Home Countries i.e UK, India, Canada, Australia, South Africa, but not the Minors or Territories without a HQ for Foreign Troop Commitment.


I understand this just the opposite.


Unless they are already considered Free France, in which case they could cooperate with CW and USA and go any port.


You may be right, I might be confusing with FF

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 8
RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/15/2021 12:06:49 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		Well, if France is Incompletely Conquered I guess they would be FF, so you are right that they could go anywhere but IMO they would not be restricted entry in CW minors. Units would be destroyed if they are French minor's units entering CW minor countries, or any French (no FF)units entering CW Majors home countries as well. Because they don't cooperate. But not French (FF or not) home units getting to CW minors.

With FF the Major Power units (FF) couuld go to CW MPs because they cooperate, so ships could. I still think the minors of FF cannot stand in CW MP or Minors land even if they cooperate, attending to the text.

From RAC:

quote:

FOREIGN TROOP COMMITMENTS
A major power or minor country unit that ends
any step in the home country of a friendly major
power it doesn’t co-operate with is destroyed
unless:

Ç It started the step there; or
Ç It started the step elsewhere and the unit
satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.

A minor country unit that ends any step in the
home country of an aligned minor country on the
same side is destroyed unless:

Ç It started the step there; or
Ç It started the step elsewhere and the unit
satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.

Clarification: Axis units are also destroyed if
they cannot satisfy Foreign Troop Commitment
requirements in Vichy Administration groups.

Clarification: Home countries here may be
new home countries. It does not refer to territory
controlled by a conquering major power.


< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/15/2021 12:23:28 AM >

(in reply to ssiviour)
Post #: 9
RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/15/2021 3:10:24 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		José is right:

From the FAQ:

Does Foreign Troop Commitments apply
after the country has been conquered?
FTC still applies to the new home country
of an incompletely conquered country.

And from RAW:

17.1 Creation
(...)
If you install a Vichy government, Metropolitan France itself is
divided into 2 countries - Metropolitan Vichy France (including
Corsica if still French controlled) and Occupied France. (...)
Free France is an alternative government also established at this time.

This means that if the Axis installs Vichy, Free France is created.
If however, France gets incompletely conquered, France stays in the game (there is no creation of Free France in this case). Therefore the French cannot cooperate with the CW. So French ships cannot rebase in CW home countries (unless if they satisfy the FTC rules).

< Message edited by Centuur -- 2/15/2021 3:11:47 PM >

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Peter

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Post #: 10
RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/15/2021 5:30:27 PM   
Courtenay


Posts: 4003
Joined: 11/12/2008
Status: offline 		Another huge drawback to incomplete conquest is all the French minors stay aligned to France.
And a third is that getting an incomplete conquest takes longer, and the Axis's most precious resource is time.

The one big advantage of incomplete conquest is that there is no Vichy France, so the whole Spanish border is open to invasion without having to take a US entry hit for first creating and then collapsing Vichy France. If one is intending to invade Spain, great! If one is not, then this is not worth anything, and is in fact, a negative, because it is more territory for the Axis to defend.

_____________________________

I thought I knew how to play this game....

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 11
RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/23/2021 2:48:04 AM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		There are some wrinkles to it all. What the Allies do in France can influence Axis decision making.

Some CW players do a bare minimum in France. They send Gort + 2 MOT to Calais, sit there and watch the Panzer parade to their south, never loan the French a single Pound, and then sail away again when the Germans have 2 hexes on Paris. All while building up the Royal Navy for the mid-game. And the French reward this by sending BPs to the UK when the Germans are adjacent to Paris.

Other CW players invest a fair bit more in France, and make sure the French have some ground units in production for the Fall of 1940, and have moved a couple factories to Bordeaux. A MTN unit and the 1940 French ART can make their mountain hex citadels pretty fearsome. Sure, they might end up as Vichy units. But they might not.

The question at hand is - are the Germans going to attack Spain? In the first situation, a weak France running low on units might be easy to conquer, without the US Entry penalty for collapsing Vichy. In the 2nd situation, the Axis calculus will be quite different.

Another possible Axis plan is to take Morocco. If that hasn’t been achieved when they have Paris, they may not wish to see Morocco become Vichy.

And another consideration is the utility of the French fleet. If the Axis can take Marseilles and Bordeaux from a lazy set of Allies, the French fleet will probably be out of supply and increasingly completely useless as it also couldn’t be re-organized (barring some heroic stand by UK infantry in Rouen, perhaps). In that type of situation, the French might choose to surrender France to pick a new Home Country - & thus a new Primary Supply Source. Though then a whole ‘nother turn would have to pass before the French ships could sail again, and their ships, wherever they might be, would have to trace a supply line to that new Home Country, wherever it might be.

(in reply to Courtenay)
Post #: 12
RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/24/2021 6:44:03 PM   
RJCowan

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 11/5/2008
Status: offline 		A variation on a question I just asked in another thread...CAN the French surrender? How is it done? It seems that the Peace phase does not occur. Have others surrendered France, and if so, how?

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 13
RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/24/2021 7:03:53 PM   
craigbear

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 1/21/2020
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline 		I have surrendered with France. There are certain criteria that must be fulfilled and the option to select surrender just pops up.

(in reply to RJCowan)
Post #: 14
RE: Pros and Cons of Conquering France vs. Vichy? - 2/24/2021 7:44:38 PM   
Courtenay


Posts: 4003
Joined: 11/12/2008
Status: offline 		You can not surrender until half your printed factories have been captured. Once that happens, you will be asked each turn. The Chinese player gets used to saying "No".

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I thought I knew how to play this game....

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Post #: 15
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